What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

The only place I have found the word veneration so far is under one word bow used 4 times in the NT which is to an image of baal
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed 2578 the knee to the image of Baal.

kamptō

1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self

But I don't venerate Baal, so your argument is invalid.

 

[Fireinfolding]

But we don't venerate Baal, so your argument is invalid.

What argument is there presenting information on veneration?

In Christ dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily, even the NT says the Godhead is not likened to silver, gold, stone, or wood.

Even that which represented Christ, as the brazen serpent lifted up, an image (some call icon) was commanded to be made of Moses by God himself, and Hezekiah destroyed it because the people started burning incence to it, and God said he did what was right in His eyes.

And God commanded that one be made

 

[hybrid]

There is a lot of confusion about the Second Commandment. It is a sin to make a graven image and worship it, but it is not a sin to make an icon and worship (or venerate if icon is not Jesus) what it represents.

Investigate the human psyche why people are compelled to make them in the first place. This phenomena has been going on for millenia . Inspite of the ridicule that the bible has for parading idols after thousands of years people still practice the procession of religious images. Why is this human practice so persistent and resilient in our culture?

Regardless whether we only pray with them instead of praying to them, kneeling before them is quite an interesting sight.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I was looking at this some time back myself.

From what I read (see link reference) St John of Damsacus regarded the brasen serpent to be an icon. But he also believed that anyone who tried to destroy icons "was the enemy of Christ, the Holy Mother of God and the saints, and is the defender of the Devil and his demons."

From here..

Teaching about Icons

What I never understand is when someone says that but never adresses 2Kings

2Kings 18:4 He (Hezekiah) removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan (thing of brass)

Because on the one hand he might say, "the brasen serpent is an icon" thus its ok to cense an icon, but on the other hand it was Hezekiah who did what was right in Gods eyes (when they did cense it) by braking it into pieces, thus destroying what is deemed an icon

St John of Damsacus (as it shows) believed anyone who tries to destroy an icon "was the enemy of Christ, the Holy Mother of God and the saints, and is the defender of the Devil and his demons."

Whereas it says of Hezekiah (when he brake the brasen serpent)

2Kings 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD

But if you notice on that link it speaks of "censing" icons, as if ok. Im under the impression to "cense" is synonomous with "incense". And if so (in respects to icons) as the brasen serpent is considered such, that is the very reason for Hezekiah braking it (and doing that which was right before God).

But doing so according to St John of Damsacus appears to be equated as being the defender of the Devil and his demons."

From the same link

In the Book of Numbers it is written that God told Moses to make a bronze serpent, Nehushtan ("a thing of brass") and hold it up, so that anyone looking at the snake would be healed of their snakebites. In John 3, Jesus refers to the same serpent, saying that he must be lifted up in the same way that the serpent was.

John of Damascus also regarded the brazen serpent as an icon

Further, Jesus Christ himself is called "the image of the invisible God" in Colossians 1:15, and is therefore in one sense an icon.

It continues...As people are also made in God's images, people are also considered to be living icons, and are therefore "censed" along with painted icons during Orthodox prayer services

Whereas Hezekiah is left unadressed and it says (to the contrary)

Duet 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male, or female

Even as it speaks of anything in heaven also, but Paul in respects to the Godhead (specifically so). And we know in Christ dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And of that which speaks of henceforth not knowing Christ after the flesh also, as he appeared to them in a different form as well.

The word "censed" is used in the above

Meaning is here

[URL]http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/cense.htm[/URL]

Meaning: Perfume especially with a censer

Classified under: Verbs of seeing, hearing, feeling
cense; incense

First their classification...

Duet 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell

Likewise (in Revelation) of idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk

From what I understand from that link and other conversations on this, as with John of Damascus himself, they also regarded the brasen serpent as an icon. If anything would be considered so (from the past) it would probrobly be considered so much in that given God (Himself) ordered Moses to make it (to be beheld only) but they burned incense to it

But again...

2Kings 18:4 He (Hezekiah) removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan (thing of brass)

And yet (as it says earlier) the icons can be "censed" (or synonomously) "incensed"

Also (again) according to

John of Damascus, anyone who tries to destroy icons "is the enemy of Christ, the Holy Mother of God and the saints, and is the defender of the Devil and his demons."

Whereas when Hezekiah did so (to what is considered an icon) himself it says...

2Kings 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

Even though the worshipping devils is tied in closely with the idols of gold, brass stone etc (in revelation) in respects to that which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk (in revelation 9:20) even as it is to forbidding of meats and marraige, not often the first place we look when we hear of doctrines of devils or the worshipping of devils

It continues...This is because the theology behind icons is closely tied to the Incarnational theology of the humanity and divinity of Jesus, so that attacks on icons typically have the effect of undermining or attacking the Incarnation of Jesus himself as elucidated in the Ecumenical Councils.

The Eastern Orthodox teaching regarding veneration of icons is thatthe praise and veneration shown to the icon passes over to the archetype (Basil of Caesarea, On the Holy Spirit 18:45: "The honor paid to the image passes to the prototype").

Yet...Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images

Now here...

1Thes 5:6 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

But they say...Thus to kiss an icon of Christ, in the Eastern Orthodox view, is to show love towards Christ

We are to kiss one another (as it says) but kissing concrete or brass things (graven images crafted by men) sure isnt shown in any of Christs teachings. Or whats taught in what shows love to God.

Thats not how to show love for God (by lipping cement things) and theres nowhere kissing stone images is shown as an expression of love but ignorance (one God winked at) but commands men to repent.

Heres kissing things made by hands here

Hosea 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves

Just thought that was interesting.

 

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

What argument is there presenting information on veneration?

In Christ dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily, even the NT says the Godhead is not likened to silver, gold, stone, or wood.

Even that which represented Christ, as the brazen serpent lifted up, an image (some call icon) was commanded to be made of Moses by God himself, and Hezekiah destroyed it because the people started burning incence to it, and God said he did what was right in His eyes.

And God commanded that one be made

...

 

[Fireinfolding]

Invalid example. Obviously venerating a snake is sinful.

Figures of the tue, and yet nothing in cement is true

They are just what mens hands make them and others bow to them, as if they are something more then just cement or brass (or whatever material the craftsmen choses to make his image with)

Whether they have two legs, four legs, wings, or whether God Himself ordered it made having no legs (at all).

Some folks cant resist bowing and kissing cement stuff chiseled into whatever fashion it is, but its just stuff made by the hands of human beings.

Deaf mute statues which cant see or hear

 

[sculleywr]

Figures of the tue, and yet nothing in cement is true

They are just what mens hands make them and others bow to them, as if they are something more then just cement or brass (or whatever material the craftsmen choses to make his image with)

Whether they have two legs, four legs, wings, or whether God Himself ordered it made having no legs (at all).

Some folks cant resist bowing and kissing cement stuff chiseled into whatever fashion it is, but its just stuff made by the hands of human beings.

Deaf mute statues which cant see or hear

The Icons are not the ones listening. The prototypes are. Example: Icon of Christ. He is always listening. The Icon simply gives us a focusing point on the Christ.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The Icons are not the ones listening. The prototypes are. Example: Icon of Christ. He is always listening. The Icon simply gives us a focusing point on the Christ.

Ofcourse He is always seeing and listening, though I find images a hinderance, given Christ is in us, why would I want to stare at an image made by some man (outside of me) to make me know Christ in me?

The reason the world cannot receive him is because it SEETH Him NOT, and a erecting a cement figure cant possibly help to contemplate Christ IN YOU when staring at some thing (of him) OUTSIDE of you.

Makes no sense to me.

Though I heard buddists do similar, they dont believe the god is in the cement or something but the gods or whatever hears dont they?

I do have to take a look how other religions perceive their concrete dieties

 

[sculleywr]

Ofcourse He is always seeing and listening, though I find images a hinderance, given Christ is in us, why would I want to stare at an image made by some man (outside of me) to make me know Christ in me?

The reason the world cannot receive him is because it SEETH Him NOT, and a erecting a cement figure cant possibly help to contemplate Christ IN YOU when staring at some thing (of him) OUTSIDE of you.

Makes no sense to me.

Though I heard buddists do similar, they dont believe the god is in the cement or something but the gods or whatever hears dont they?

I do have to take a look how other religions perceive their concrete dieties

Because, despite what we know intellectually to be true, it is much easier to forget that that we would like to think in our practical life. Christianity is not mind and heart alone. It is mind, heart, and all five senses involved in a faith that encompasses everything.

Besides, what is more beneficial, an icon of a random preacher who is still alive and may one day fall, or an icon of the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and the Saints who remind us in their Icons that we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Because, despite what we know intellectually to be true, it is much easier to forget that that we would like to think in our practical life. Christianity is not mind and heart alone. It is mind, heart, and all five senses involved in a faith that encompasses everything.

Besides, what is more beneficial, an icon of a random preacher who is still alive and may one day fall, or an icon of the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and the Saints who remind us in their Icons that we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.

We know by the Spirit that indwells us not intellectually, concrete figures are not Spirit as God is, His Spirit bears witness with our spirit, I couldnt know Christ by a concrete figure some craftsman made with his hands.

If anything they just look like foreign objects, but other religions I heard use concrete figures of their gods also, so I understand its a common thing among a variety of religions of bonding with their gods that way or something similar.

 

[sculleywr]

We know by the Spirit that indwells us not intellectually, concrete figures are not Spirit as God is, His Spirit bears witness with our spirit, I couldnt know Christ by a concrete figure some craftsman made with his hands.

If anything they just look like foreign objects, but other religions I heard use concrete figures of their gods also, so I understand its a common thing among a variety of religions of bonding with their gods that way or something similar.

Did not God become man? If God became man, and Christ is that Man, then God can be depicted in a concrete figure.

The first person to create an Icon? The Apostle Luke, creating what is popularly known as the Iveron Icon of the Theotokos holding Christ. This pair of Icons still exists, one in Greece, one in India. Copies of the Iveron Icon exist as well, and the one in Hawaii has gained recognition as the myrrh-streaming Icon of the Theotokos. How much myrrh can come from a piece of paper? So far, enough to be used to anoint people with the oil thereof for about 5 years. An astounding fact is that during lent and Advent, the streaming myrrh is held back, allowing us to focus on the purpose of the fasts: foscusing on Christ.

Luke gave them, God uses them to do everything up to and including curing incurable diseases. Such great works of miraculous wonders in the place of God's people proclaiming Christ as Lord and King of all.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Was a former catholic, and so I am quite familar with all the cement figures and debates, and they are getting as old as Mary topics. Just posting to the word veneration (which is often used) and a comparison I found in John of Damascus

In Him was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, I dont see how the Godhead is likened to whats fashioned by the hands of craftmen, besides Jesus showed up in another form to them, and theres as many Jesus figures made as stars, and if one were picked out of a police line up the rest would be sent home.

They are just of mens chiselings and paint brushes

Not interested in knowing Christ after the flesh (outwardly) but by the Spirit (inwardly). Cement just doesnt do anything for me.

Though it fills the void for others needing it.

 

[sculleywr]

Was a former catholic, and so I am quite familar with all the cement figures and debates, and they are getting as old as Mary topics. Just posting to the word veneration (which is often used) and a comparison I found in John of Damascus

In Him was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, I dont see how the Godhead is likened to whats fashioned by the hands of craftmen, besides Jesus showed up in another form to them, and theres as many Jesus figures made as stars, and if one were picked out of a police line up the rest would be sent home.

They are just of mens chiselings and paint brushes

Not interested in knowing Christ after the flesh (outwardly) but by the Spirit (inwardly). Cement just doesnt do anything for me.

Though it fills the void for others needing it.

Am Orthodox, formerly Baptist. They are not just men's chiselings. Also, refusing to know a physical man according to His physical and spiritual reality is the gnostic teaching. Wasn't that railed against by Paul?

Christ became man. Therefore He could be depicted.

Luke, the Apostle, depicted Him with His mother.

The Icons are seen from the earliest times.

1+1+1=3

If it was good enough for the Apostles, then it is good enough for me.

If it isn't good enough for you, then what makes you so much better or wiser than the Apostles?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Am Orthodox, formerly Baptist. They are not just men's chiselings. Also, refusing to know a physical man according to His physical and spiritual reality is the gnostic teaching. Wasn't that railed against by Paul?

Christ became man. Therefore He could be depicted.

Luke, the Apostle, depicted Him with His mother.

The Icons are seen from the earliest times.

1+1+1=3

If it was good enough for the Apostles, then it is good enough for me.

If it isn't good enough for you, then what makes you so much better or wiser than the Apostles?

The artworks are just chiselings and paintstrokes of men, unless you believe God came down and either chiseled them or painted them himself now?

I dont believe this verse is gnostic

2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,yet now henceforth know we him no more.

We know by the Spirit that indwells us. But making cement figures of gods has been around for ever.

The Godhead is not likened to graven art of mens device, but Im not interested in knowing Jesus after the paintjob some man fashioned of Him, how can I? The Spirit of Christ indwells me, I know and commune with Him inwardly, no cement figure is going to help me know or worship God in the Spirit He gave me.

Its just mans best attempt to paint or chisel his flesh up (to know him by), when henceforth know we him no more.

 

[sculleywr]

The artworks are just chiselings and paintstrokes of men, unless you believe God came down and either chiseled them or painted them himself now?

I dont believe this verse is gnostic

2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,yet now henceforth know we him no more.

We know by the Spirit that indwells us. But making cement figures of gods has been around for ever.

The Godhead is not likened to graven art of mens device, but Im not interested in knowing Jesus after the paintjob some man fashioned of Him, how can I? The Spirit of Christ indwells me, I know and commune with Him inwardly, no cement figure is going to help me know or worship God in the Spirit He gave me.

Its just mans best attempt to paint or chisel his flesh up (to know him by), when henceforth know we him no more.

So why did Luke make the original of this:

 

[BubblesofHope]

Your analogies were really easy to understand - thank you for putting the cookies on the lower shelf!

 

[sculleywr]

Your analogies were really easy to understand - thank you for putting the cookies on the lower shelf!

You're welcome I would say these aren't my own explanations or teachings. They are the teachings and analogies of my priest, and several people on Ancient Faith Radio

 

[Fireinfolding]

So why did Luke make the original of this:

I know tradition speaks of Luke the doctor who never having seen Christ as a child (having some kind of insight into what Jesus looked like then) made a couple of icons, but who am I to say against what anothers tradition says?

I dont put much merit on those things or alot of what tradition says anyway.

I still wont kiss or kneel before what a man made with his hands, whether it sits flat or whether its meticulously chiseled out. Cant know anymore then the thing is cold, weighs a ton, or anything more then what skin color of Christ (as painted) by men is (anyway).

Can know more of His beauty by His Spirit indwelling then concrete and paint.

Still doesnt make that verse gnostic to henceforth know Christ no more after the flesh.

Although to be fair, he doesnt say we know not Christ after the paintjob, so perhaps knowing him after a painted canvas or cement figurine, that could be a convenient loophole?

Could very well be to some.

I'm just not interested, they are just the works of mens hands. I am not to be falling before the sun moon and stars (the work of Gods hands) why would I even consider to kneel before the way lesser of things men have made of wood, stone, cement or the like?

Though some folks are comforted by concrete images, they always creeped me out (even as a child) when I was a catholic as I have shared before. Even the flat art (to me) is creepy looking, it has no appeal to me.

 

[sculleywr]

I know tradition speaks of Luke the doctor who never having seen Christ as a child (having some kind of insight into what Jesus looked like then) made a couple of icons, but who am I to say against what anothers tradition says?

I dont put much merit on those things or alot of what tradition says anyway.

I still wont kiss or kneel before what a man made with his hands, whether it sits flat or whether its meticulously chiseled out. Cant know anymore then the thing is cold, weighs a ton, or anything more then what skin color of Christ (as painted) by men is (anyway).

Can know more of His beauty by His Spirit indwelling then concrete and paint.

Still doesnt make that verse gnostic to henceforth know Christ no more after the flesh.

Although to be fair, he doesnt say we know not Christ after the paintjob, so perhaps knowing him after a painted canvas or cement figurine, that could be a convenient loophole?

Could very well be to some.

I'm just not interested, they are just the works of mens hands. I am not to be falling before the sun moon and stars (the work of Gods hands) why would I even consider to kneel before the way lesser of things men have made of wood, stone, cement or the like?

Though some folks are comforted by concrete images, they always creeped me out (even as a child) when I was a catholic as I have shared before. Even the flat art (to me) is creepy looking, it has no appeal to me.

II Thessalonians 2:15

Hold to the Traditions which we have given you, both in word [speech], and in our epistle.

If you don't put stock in Apostolic Tradition, then you don't put stock in Paul's command

 

[Fireinfolding]

II Thessalonians 2:15

Hold to the Traditions which we have given you, both in word [speech], and in our epistle.

If you don't put stock in Apostolic Tradition, then you don't put stock in Paul's command

Yeah well, sculleywr, I've been here for 5 years now, been down this road of converation many many many many (many) times before, whether it be of traaditions, concrete arts, flat arts, Mary and every other generic kick a dead horse debate, just not interested.

Just like the gnostic accusation to provoke into a response, its really just how it goes around here, until someone says, Im just not interested in your whole spin on things, I've already heard it before from practically everyside (and many years) and I'm just not into the manner of communications.

So do have the last word, and I'll unsubscribe myself, because I have better things to do.