What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

[someguy14]

What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

Worship God alone. God is the only eternal.

Do you love a car. Fail.
Do you love a house. Fail.
Do love money. Fail.
Do you love any physical object. Good news. Fail.

God is the only one worthy of love.

 

[hybrid]

Worship God alone. God is the only eternal.

Do you love a car. Fail.
Do you love a house. Fail.
Do love money. Fail.
Do you love any physical object. Good news. Fail.

God is the only one worthy of love.

God is not an object of love.
What kind of object god would be?
God is love itself

 

[someguy14]

God is love itself

Glad you agree. Now forget the fail.

 

[hybrid]

Glad you agree. Now forget the fail.

Meaning?

 

[someguy14]

God is love, is only for Gods alone.

 

[strangertoo]

God is love, is only for Gods alone.

there is only ONE spirit [of the God of Love, of being ONE]

the spirit of man is of God... however long man denies it in FINITE CREATED time , we all come back to what we are in the end ... the flesh cannot last , the spirit is ONE, endless, unchangeable, time-less ... we shall all Love perfectly in life then before translation to spirit, the creator makes that rule for the creation, God's Law of Love... it takes men so long to stop being fools and decide to Try Love of all and so be HAPPY in life simply because men refuse their own witness of conscience, heart of Love, mind, spirit... stubbornly make themselves miserable, empty, self-destructive, grey, half-dead in life, by absurd egoistic belief that man cannot be wrong ...it will be a great joke one day how we went on so long destroying what we thought was us , for NOTHING at all ... and called it 'progress', 'growth', etc as we destroyed this earth and mankind with it... LOL? ... one has to laugh or cry eventually ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

 

[hybrid]

Yes i think making idols is a product of the carnal mind too imo

 

[Imagican]

I hope that the moderators will take into consideration that it seems that there is ONLY ONE PERSON here that seems to choose attempting to BULLY others through an improper manner of communication. And if there is a problem with this thread, it is NOT the 'thread itself' but merely ONE PERSON.

Skully, it would seem that you have a bit of an anger problem. When others attempt to communicate with you you seem to think that 'acting out' in an aggressive manner is preferable to proper communication skills. I sincerely HOPE that this isn't an attempt to close the thread by attracting moderators. I have completed what I would like to offer YET.

If you had read what I offered on this thread BEFORE you started posting, you would have seen that I already pointed out that the Catholic Church has DUPED it's followers into a false sense of 'worship' by using such words as veneration, honor, respect, etc..................But in truth, when one BOWS to an idol or icon and starts praying, to the REST OF THE WORLD, this IS worship whether you USE that word or NOT.

It's much like Clinton saying that he didn't REALLY smoke pot because he DIDN'T inhale. If he put it to his lips and drew pressure upon it to bring smoke from it, then as far as I am concerned HE WAS SMOKING POT.

So if you BOW to an image and Pray to that image, you are WORSHIPING that image.

What many seem to believe is that Stating that it is what the image represents that they pray to so they are NOT worshiping the image somehow alters realiity. But in TRUTH, ALL idolatry is practiced in the SAME manner. NO ONE that worships the IMAGES of 'false gods' BELIEVE that the IMAGE is that very God. They are worshiping what the image REPRESENTS. It is the EXACT same thing that the Catholic Church does.

And considering that the Catholic Church considers Mary to BE the "Queen of Heaven", it is PERFECTLY clear to ME that when a Catholic bows to a statue of Mary and prays, they are offering their WORSHIP to Mary THROUGH that statue.

I am sorry that you fail to recognize what those opposed to worshiping statues feel about such. From MY perspective, bowing in front of statue and praying IS worshiping that icon, idol, statue, graven image.

But I certainly did not state this thread with the intent upon focusing on ANY particular denomination or it's practices. I opened this thread to point out that most of us, (if not ALL of us), have been TRAINED to 'worship' graven images. The 'adversary' has done quite a satisfactory job of introduction of THINGS that the flesh LOVES. Those that follow his influence have done quite well in their 'selling it to us'. This 'idea' that it's OK to 'worship graven images'.

A Van Gogh is announced to be at auction and those of means line up for an opportunity to bid MILLIONS of dollars on it. A man will work his fingers to the bone to buy that 'special car' that is so dear to his heart. I have witnessed house who's whole theme is the collection of certain 'items'. Heck, just the FACT that everyone reading this KNOWS what a Van Gogh IS ought to be ENOUGH said to prove the point.

We call it 'humanities' for a REASON. For it has nothing to do with nor does it even take into consideration, GOD. It is purely of 'the flesh'. Humanities is the PERFECT title.

5. humanitiesa. The languages and literatures of ancient Greece and Rome; the classics.
b. Those branches of knowledge, such as philosophy, literature, and art, that are concerned with human thought and culture; the liberal arts.

Liberal arts. Think about it. Have we really become so blind that we can't even discern the WORDS that we use and their meaning? LIBERAL 'arts'. For there is NO SUCH THING as 'conservative arts'. The 'arts' themselves are an ACT of LIBERALISM. A sense of STATEMENT that I am FREE to choose whatever I DESIRE to CREATE or STATE. When in essence that is utterly contrary to the instruction we have been offered by God. Those that would profess to be and TRULY follow are BOUND by the confines of LOVE. Or are FREE within those confines if that is how you choose to view it. But we are NOT free as many would indicate. We are NOT free to withhold our love. We are NOT free to harm another. And we were certainly never given instruction that we are FREE to worship idols of our own design: graven images.

Question: WHO makes someone FAMOUS? Does a person make themselves famous or do people PICK someone to 'make famous'? Can you simply CHOOSE to be famous and then make it so? Or is it the PEOPLE that choose YOU to make YOU famous? For I am a firm believer that not only are 'graven images' those things wrought by the HANDS of men, but by their MINDS as well.

When we WORSHIP someone for their 'art', are WE not MAKING them an IDOL? Are we not placing undue honor upon THEM? Insisting that they stand before us so that we can WORSHIP them?

I was at a Rock Concert years ago. At one point, in the midst of 55,000 people it HIT ME: this is NO different than a 'worship service'. It's all here. Someone standing in front of us offering us the TRUTH we are looking for and we screaming our hearts out in DEVOTION to that which stands before us. It was an uncanny moment of clarity. It then made PERFECT SENSE. We were making a GOD of that band on the stage. And not only paying to worship those 'gods', but acting EXACTLY like the Hebrews were acting when Moses came down from the mount. Dancing and singing, drunk and on drugs, getting LOST in the moment of reverence to a 'god of our OWN DESIGN'. For it was WE that made those on that stage OUR gods. They didn't 'do it', WE DID. And it wasn't like we were 'unaware', for the vast majority were holding up their 'demon hand signs' yelling, "Hell Yeah!!!!!!!".

I know, I know, just errant ramblings huh? Nothing wrong with concerts. It's JUST entertainment. But folks, so too was the 'Arena'. To those that participated it was JUST entertainment. But then that is what those that frequent topless bars say as well. Or those that frequent houses of prostitution: it's JUST entertainment. Recreational DRUG USE. Head banging was just 'foolin' around'.

So at WHAT POINT does recreation cross that line and become obsession? And when does obsession become WORSHIP? For what we worship is nothing more than that which we ADORE. That which we offer our LOVE to is that which we WORSHIP. For how is it that God EXPECTS our 'worship'? Is it NOT merely a matter of being desirous of OUR LOVE? Our DEVOTION?

For not only have men been led to worship idols made by their own hands, they have been led to worship EACH OTHER and even their own concepts and IDEAS. And if one chooses to fill their hearts with idols of these sorts, what room is LEFT for God and each other in TRUTH?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Why does he have to? It was his church that assembled the bible while still having icons. Funny that it didn't bother them.

Ah, he doesn't HAVE to do ANYTHING. But it would certainly go a LONG way in justifying such statements.

And NO, HIS CHURCH, (which I am assuming you to be referencing the Catholic Church), did NOT create the Bible that I read.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

who stretched out the thread, I guess when you get really frustrated you just distort the whole page, nobody ever continues in these stretched pages

It certainly wasn't I. I have NO IDEA how to DO it. And even if I did I wouldn't attempt to impede others from taking part in this discussion.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[back2thebible]

I hope that the moderators will take into consideration that it seems that there is ONLY ONE PERSON here that seems to choose attempting to BULLY others through an improper manner of communication. And if there is a problem with this thread, it is NOT the 'thread itself' but merely ONE PERSON.

Skully, it would seem that you have a bit of an anger problem. When others attempt to communicate with you you seem to think that 'acting out' in an aggressive manner is preferable to proper communication skills. I sincerely HOPE that this isn't an attempt to close the thread by attracting moderators. I have completed what I would like to offer YET.

If you had read what I offered on this thread BEFORE you started posting, you would have seen that I already pointed out that the Catholic Church has DUPED it's followers into a false sense of 'worship' by using such words as veneration, honor, respect, etc..................But in truth, when one BOWS to an idol or icon and starts praying, to the REST OF THE WORLD, this IS worship whether you USE that word or NOT.

It's much like Clinton saying that he didn't REALLY smoke pot because he DIDN'T inhale. If he put it to his lips and drew pressure upon it to bring smoke from it, then as far as I am concerned HE WAS SMOKING POT.

So if you BOW to an image and Pray to that image, you are WORSHIPING that image.

What many seem to believe is that Stating that it is what the image represents that they pray to so they are NOT worshiping the image somehow alters realiity. But in TRUTH, ALL idolatry is practiced in the SAME manner. NO ONE that worships the IMAGES of 'false gods' BELIEVE that the IMAGE is that very God. They are worshiping what the image REPRESENTS. It is the EXACT same thing that the Catholic Church does.

And considering that the Catholic Church considers Mary to BE the "Queen of Heaven", it is PERFECTLY clear to ME that when a Catholic bows to a statue of Mary and prays, they are offering their WORSHIP to Mary THROUGH that statue.

I am sorry that you fail to recognize what those opposed to worshiping statues feel about such. From MY perspective, bowing in front of statue and praying IS worshiping that icon, idol, statue, graven image.

But I certainly did not state this thread with the intent upon focusing on ANY particular denomination or it's practices. I opened this thread to point out that most of us, (if not ALL of us), have been TRAINED to 'worship' graven images. The 'adversary' has done quite a satisfactory job of introduction of THINGS that the flesh LOVES. Those that follow his influence have done quite well in their 'selling it to us'. This 'idea' that it's OK to 'worship graven images'.

A Van Gogh is announced to be at auction and those of means line up for an opportunity to bid MILLIONS of dollars on it. A man will work his fingers to the bone to buy that 'special car' that is so dear to his heart. I have witnessed house who's whole theme is the collection of certain 'items'. Heck, just the FACT that everyone reading this KNOWS what a Van Gogh IS ought to be ENOUGH said to prove the point.

We call it 'humanities' for a REASON. For it has nothing to do with nor does it even take into consideration, GOD. It is purely of 'the flesh'. Humanities is the PERFECT title.

5. humanitiesa. The languages and literatures of ancient Greece and Rome; the classics.
b. Those branches of knowledge, such as philosophy, literature, and art, that are concerned with human thought and culture; the liberal arts.

Liberal arts. Think about it. Have we really become so blind that we can't even discern the WORDS that we use and their meaning? LIBERAL 'arts'. For there is NO SUCH THING as 'conservative arts'. The 'arts' themselves are an ACT of LIBERALISM. A sense of STATEMENT that I am FREE to choose whatever I DESIRE to CREATE or STATE. When in essence that is utterly contrary to the instruction we have been offered by God. Those that would profess to be and TRULY follow are BOUND by the confines of LOVE. Or are FREE within those confines if that is how you choose to view it. But we are NOT free as many would indicate. We are NOT free to withhold our love. We are NOT free to harm another. And we were certainly never given instruction that we are FREE to worship idols of our own design: graven images.

Question: WHO makes someone FAMOUS? Does a person make themselves famous or do people PICK someone to 'make famous'? Can you simply CHOOSE to be famous and then make it so? Or is it the PEOPLE that choose YOU to make YOU famous? For I am a firm believer that not only are 'graven images' those things wrought by the HANDS of men, but by their MINDS as well.

When we WORSHIP someone for their 'art', are WE not MAKING them an IDOL? Are we not placing undue honor upon THEM? Insisting that they stand before us so that we can WORSHIP them?

I was at a Rock Concert years ago. At one point, in the midst of 55,000 people it HIT ME: this is NO different than a 'worship service'. It's all here. Someone standing in front of us offering us the TRUTH we are looking for and we screaming our hearts out in DEVOTION to that which stands before us. It was an uncanny moment of clarity. It then made PERFECT SENSE. We were making a GOD of that band on the stage. And not only paying to worship those 'gods', but acting EXACTLY like the Hebrews were acting when Moses came down from the mount. Dancing and singing, drunk and on drugs, getting LOST in the moment of reverence to a 'god of our OWN DESIGN'. For it was WE that made those on that stage OUR gods. They didn't 'do it', WE DID. And it wasn't like we were 'unaware', for the vast majority were holding up their 'demon hand signs' yelling, "Hell Yeah!!!!!!!".

I know, I know, just errant ramblings huh? Nothing wrong with concerts. It's JUST entertainment. But folks, so too was the 'Arena'. To those that participated it was JUST entertainment. But then that is what those that frequent topless bars say as well. Or those that frequent houses of prostitution: it's JUST entertainment. Recreational DRUG USE. Head banging was just 'foolin' around'.

So at WHAT POINT does recreation cross that line and become obsession? And when does obsession become WORSHIP? For what we worship is nothing more than that which we ADORE. That which we offer our LOVE to is that which we WORSHIP. For how is it that God EXPECTS our 'worship'? Is it NOT merely a matter of being desirous of OUR LOVE? Our DEVOTION?

For not only have men been led to worship idols made by their own hands, they have been led to worship EACH OTHER and even their own concepts and IDEAS. And if one chooses to fill their hearts with idols of these sorts, what room is LEFT for God and each other in TRUTH?

Blessings,

MEC

GREAT POST! I won't praise you to much for it so as not to not give you undue worship......lol.......no but truly God has given you great insight to see things from a God like position, really loved the clinton pot smoking analogy, what a perfect example.......I may just keep adding a statement to this original post, to keep it at the end of this thread, to anyone who ventures here to see what people have said. really a great Holy Spirit inspired post!

 

[Imagican]

Show me scriptural evidence that it isn't, because I have shown you historical evidence that it is true:

Jesus himself produced the first icon. King Agbar of Edessa, a leper, heard of Jesus' healing powers, and sent a messenger to bring Jesus back to heal him. Along with a letter declining the invitation because of his pressing mission, Jesus sent the MANDILION, a cloth on which the image of his face was miraculously reproduced.

The second icon is attributed to St. Luke who portrayed the Mother of God holding her son. It is significant that this first icon of a saint was made from a model, not from the artist's imagination, so that it is an authentic image of the holy persons. There are even icons of this event that show Mary and Jesus posing for Luke as he paints.

The icon became most developed and established in Constantinople, but there is evidence of icons from the second century.​

Icons

when no scriptural evidence against the REVERENCE of Icons exist, there is no need for it

Has ANYONE ever HEARD of what is offered here? Jesus and Mary POSING for a portrait? I believe someone has "TRICKED" you my friend. The Hebrews/Jews DID NOT paint PICTURES of PEOPLE. If so, show us the EVIDENCE instead of merely making erroneous comments.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

God is not an object of love.
What kind of object god would be?
God is love itself

Amen.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Worship God alone. God is the only eternal.

Do you love a car. Fail.
Do you love a house. Fail.
Do love money. Fail.
Do you love any physical object. Good news. Fail.

God is the only one worthy of love.

Amen,

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Yes i think making idols is a product of the carnal mind too imo

I don't believe that this is MERELY an opinion, I believe that it is the Spirit that leads to such conclusions. While the Word STATES it, it is the Spirit that confirms. Amen?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[gord44]

Ah, he doesn't HAVE to do ANYTHING. But it would certainly go a LONG way in justifying such statements.

People had icons well before the canon was complete or even fully compiled.

 

[back2thebible]

I hope that the moderators will take into consideration that it seems that there is ONLY ONE PERSON here that seems to choose attempting to BULLY others through an improper manner of communication. And if there is a problem with this thread, it is NOT the 'thread itself' but merely ONE PERSON.

Skully, it would seem that you have a bit of an anger problem. When others attempt to communicate with you you seem to think that 'acting out' in an aggressive manner is preferable to proper communication skills. I sincerely HOPE that this isn't an attempt to close the thread by attracting moderators. I have completed what I would like to offer YET.

If you had read what I offered on this thread BEFORE you started posting, you would have seen that I already pointed out that the Catholic Church has DUPED it's followers into a false sense of 'worship' by using such words as veneration, honor, respect, etc..................But in truth, when one BOWS to an idol or icon and starts praying, to the REST OF THE WORLD, this IS worship whether you USE that word or NOT.

It's much like Clinton saying that he didn't REALLY smoke pot because he DIDN'T inhale. If he put it to his lips and drew pressure upon it to bring smoke from it, then as far as I am concerned HE WAS SMOKING POT.

So if you BOW to an image and Pray to that image, you are WORSHIPING that image.

What many seem to believe is that Stating that it is what the image represents that they pray to so they are NOT worshiping the image somehow alters realiity. But in TRUTH, ALL idolatry is practiced in the SAME manner. NO ONE that worships the IMAGES of 'false gods' BELIEVE that the IMAGE is that very God. They are worshiping what the image REPRESENTS. It is the EXACT same thing that the Catholic Church does.

And considering that the Catholic Church considers Mary to BE the "Queen of Heaven", it is PERFECTLY clear to ME that when a Catholic bows to a statue of Mary and prays, they are offering their WORSHIP to Mary THROUGH that statue.

I am sorry that you fail to recognize what those opposed to worshiping statues feel about such. From MY perspective, bowing in front of statue and praying IS worshiping that icon, idol, statue, graven image.

But I certainly did not state this thread with the intent upon focusing on ANY particular denomination or it's practices. I opened this thread to point out that most of us, (if not ALL of us), have been TRAINED to 'worship' graven images. The 'adversary' has done quite a satisfactory job of introduction of THINGS that the flesh LOVES. Those that follow his influence have done quite well in their 'selling it to us'. This 'idea' that it's OK to 'worship graven images'.

A Van Gogh is announced to be at auction and those of means line up for an opportunity to bid MILLIONS of dollars on it. A man will work his fingers to the bone to buy that 'special car' that is so dear to his heart. I have witnessed house who's whole theme is the collection of certain 'items'. Heck, just the FACT that everyone reading this KNOWS what a Van Gogh IS ought to be ENOUGH said to prove the point.

We call it 'humanities' for a REASON. For it has nothing to do with nor does it even take into consideration, GOD. It is purely of 'the flesh'. Humanities is the PERFECT title.

5. humanitiesa. The languages and literatures of ancient Greece and Rome; the classics.
b. Those branches of knowledge, such as philosophy, literature, and art, that are concerned with human thought and culture; the liberal arts.

Liberal arts. Think about it. Have we really become so blind that we can't even discern the WORDS that we use and their meaning? LIBERAL 'arts'. For there is NO SUCH THING as 'conservative arts'. The 'arts' themselves are an ACT of LIBERALISM. A sense of STATEMENT that I am FREE to choose whatever I DESIRE to CREATE or STATE. When in essence that is utterly contrary to the instruction we have been offered by God. Those that would profess to be and TRULY follow are BOUND by the confines of LOVE. Or are FREE within those confines if that is how you choose to view it. But we are NOT free as many would indicate. We are NOT free to withhold our love. We are NOT free to harm another. And we were certainly never given instruction that we are FREE to worship idols of our own design: graven images.

Question: WHO makes someone FAMOUS? Does a person make themselves famous or do people PICK someone to 'make famous'? Can you simply CHOOSE to be famous and then make it so? Or is it the PEOPLE that choose YOU to make YOU famous? For I am a firm believer that not only are 'graven images' those things wrought by the HANDS of men, but by their MINDS as well.

When we WORSHIP someone for their 'art', are WE not MAKING them an IDOL? Are we not placing undue honor upon THEM? Insisting that they stand before us so that we can WORSHIP them?

I was at a Rock Concert years ago. At one point, in the midst of 55,000 people it HIT ME: this is NO different than a 'worship service'. It's all here. Someone standing in front of us offering us the TRUTH we are looking for and we screaming our hearts out in DEVOTION to that which stands before us. It was an uncanny moment of clarity. It then made PERFECT SENSE. We were making a GOD of that band on the stage. And not only paying to worship those 'gods', but acting EXACTLY like the Hebrews were acting when Moses came down from the mount. Dancing and singing, drunk and on drugs, getting LOST in the moment of reverence to a 'god of our OWN DESIGN'. For it was WE that made those on that stage OUR gods. They didn't 'do it', WE DID. And it wasn't like we were 'unaware', for the vast majority were holding up their 'demon hand signs' yelling, "Hell Yeah!!!!!!!".

I know, I know, just errant ramblings huh? Nothing wrong with concerts. It's JUST entertainment. But folks, so too was the 'Arena'. To those that participated it was JUST entertainment. But then that is what those that frequent topless bars say as well. Or those that frequent houses of prostitution: it's JUST entertainment. Recreational DRUG USE. Head banging was just 'foolin' around'.

So at WHAT POINT does recreation cross that line and become obsession? And when does obsession become WORSHIP? For what we worship is nothing more than that which we ADORE. That which we offer our LOVE to is that which we WORSHIP. For how is it that God EXPECTS our 'worship'? Is it NOT merely a matter of being desirous of OUR LOVE? Our DEVOTION?

For not only have men been led to worship idols made by their own hands, they have been led to worship EACH OTHER and even their own concepts and IDEAS. And if one chooses to fill their hearts with idols of these sorts, what room is LEFT for God and each other in TRUTH?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[sculleywr]

could you make your letters just a little bigger, then I can take off my glasses

whether or not your aware of it or not, certainly its not you!, but millions of Catholics around the world can be witnessed bowing down in front of these (whats the new name for idol?) Oh yeah! ..."Icon" people kissing and sobbing, holding its foot or little wooden hand, looking intently into the "Icons" painted eyes, pleading with these "Icons" to answer their prayers............yeah thats not idolatry, It doesn't even come close!
lol...........sigh

Yeah. You keep telling yourself that. As for me and my house, I will follow God's church and accept it in full, Icons included. Luke and Paul had them. I will too. As you refuse to prove they are idols, I will leave you to your Islamic doctrine of iconoclasm.

 

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

There is a lot of confusion about the Second Commandment. It is a sin to make a graven image and worship it, but it is not a sin to make an icon and worship (or venerate if icon is not Jesus) what it represents.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The only place I have found the word veneration so far is under one word bow used 4 times in the NT which is to an image of baal
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed 2578 the knee to the image of Baal.

kamptō

1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self