What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is amazing when one studies history how many things have been lost to 'reason'. How men have been able to use their OWN reasoning to ignore some of the most simple instructions offered by God through His prophets. How THIS world is SO alluring that it has the power to convince men that they can 'do it their way' and that there is NO REASON to follow as instructed.

Since the beginning of the 'creation of man', God has offered instruction to help man avoid the pitfalls that exist in 'this world'. In order to keep him from harm, God has offered instruction to protect them.

Yet men, thinking themselves to be wise have pretty much managed to REASON their way AROUND almost every bit of instruction offered. Like the proverbial CHILD that THINKS that it can DO those things the parents forbid without suffering consequences. Constantly questioning every speck of advice and instruction. Believing that guidance offered through love is but a means of 'holding them back'. INTRUDING upon their will by saying NO, don't do that, or beware.

When God revealed Himself to the Hebrews as their God, their KING, He offered them instructions, (as to children), of things that would be to their advantage to follow: The Law. And contained within this law were instruction designed to bring men closer to God and closer to EACH OTHER. A means of DOING that which is righteous verses allowing them to DO what they FELT like doing that could lead to their destruction.

One of these offerings of instruction, (laws), was that men would NOT make 'graven images' and worship them.

So, in order to follow such a commandment or instruction, it would first be demanded that one UNDERSTAND what a 'graven image' IS. He made it simple. God EXPLAINED it in such SIMPLE detail that it would not be MISUNDERSTOOD. Let's see what He offered:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Notice that there is PERIOD at the end of this sentence. ANYTHING that is in the AIR, upon the earth, or in the water. That pretty much summed it up at the time. For men's imaginings had not proceeded to the point of created images of 'other places' YET. All they KNEW was 'the sky', the 'earth' and the 'water'. It would take TIME and ignoring this commandment to begin to IMAGINE places OUTSIDE of 'the world'.

So let's start with a discussion of WHAT a graven image IS and then move on to WHY men were discouraged from creating them.

Blessings,

MEC
 

Soulgazer

Christian Gnostic
Feb 24, 2011
3,748
90
Visit site
✟19,403.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Halakha

Despite the semantic association with idols, Halakha ("Jewish law") as taught by the Shulkhan Arukh ("Code of Jewish Law") and still practiced and applied by Orthodox Judaism today, interprets the verses as prohibiting the creation of certain types of graven images of people, angels, or astronomical bodies, whether or not they are actually used as idols. The Shulkhan Arukh states: "It is forbidden to make complete solid or raised images of people or angels, or any images of heavenly bodies except for purposes of study".[2] ("Heavenly bodies" are included here because the stars and planets were worshipped by some religions in human forms. Astronomical models for scientific purposes are permitted under the category of "study.")

A Dayenu from Birds' Head Haggada


An authoritative breakdown can be found in the Shulkhan Arukh, section yoreh deah which takes the literal meaning of פסל pesel as "graven image" (from the root פסל P-S-L, "to engrave." See Exodus 34:1, 4; Deuteronomy 10:1, 3.) The prohibition is therefore seen as applying specifically to certain forms of sculpture and depictions of the human face. In keeping with this prohibition, some illustrations from the Middle Ages feature fantastic creatures—usually bird-headed humanoids, even when the depictions are quite clearly meant to be those of historical or mythological humans. The most well-known is the Birds' Head Haggadah (Germany, circa 1300). Because such creatures as gryphons, harpies, sphynxes, and the Phoenix do not actually exist, no violation of the prohibition is perceived in such depictions. This is based on the fact that the Second Commandment, as stated in Exodus, refers specifically to "anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land." However, it is forbidden to make the four faces on the Divine Chariot (Ezekiel I) or the ministering angels, because these are believed to be real beings that actually exist "in the heaven above." (Kitzur Shulkhan Arukh 138:1)




From Wiki
 
Upvote 0

motherprayer

Elisha
Jul 12, 2012
8,466
586
Visit site
✟19,375.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Imagician I was just thinking on this very thing!

I thought about this as it relates to how in today's world, with all our technology, and because I am a photographer, I have studied a bit of history as regards to technology with cameras. Many advances in technology have come as a result of people in high places wanting their "likeness" preserved, and therefore they have poured money into finding ways to capture themselves.
It interests me that with all our hi-tech gadgets, which started with a simple idea for a device that could capture an image, we have so many distractions from God today. And we are getting farther and farther.

What if, and this is a big IF, as I fear I may be branded as an heretic for citing the possibility, graven images are pictures, sculptures, etc?
 
Upvote 0
Mar 31, 2011
1,289
60
Babylon
✟9,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
In Relationship
Imagican said:
So let's start with a discussion of WHAT a graven image IS and then move on to WHY men were discouraged from creating them.

Blessings,

MEC

What?
A waste of time.

Why?
It's not God's work.

I'd like to believe this corrupted place will be destroyed. Any energy put into this dream is meaningless.

We live in reality, and the physical isn't it...

Btw, writing can be considered graven images... My posts are a waste of time. I can do better, but I don't.

Peace be with you,
Love.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
H

hybrid

Guest
So let's start with a discussion of WHAT a graven image IS and then move on to WHY men were discouraged from creating them.

Blessings,

MEC

when God forbid them to cast graven image, God also added not to bow down to them. the reason is simple and plain. Worship God only.

worship god only and never even God's representation. the only image god allows to worship is his image. but this is only a later development in the new testament. this image is christ his son. but even today chrsitiandoms make symbolic representation of christ and bow down to them.

so what is happening? imo, the human mind works through symbolic represantation, it likes to imagine, make images for it to function properly and have a grasp of its own version of reality. even our languages are images. so how does say a mind worship god who is spirit? how do we worship spirit? the carnal mind would therfore create first a mental image of god. put it into form ( the graven image) and associate the form with the real spirit god. in this way he can access god but only thru the mind.

so god is actually veiled by the carnal mind. even today, we are guilty of creating images of god. not graven but conceptual images of god that we hold on to as truths. the real challenge is always to worship god in spirit and in truth.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
What if, and this is a big IF, as I fear I may be branded as an heretic for citing the possibility, graven images are pictures, sculptures, etc?

Notice when there's a tornado or wild fire approaching and people need to evacuate very quickly, what things are often saved? Family photos, tapes, legal papers?

What do you see??? Worship of these images!!! You are right, do not fear!:thumbsup:

Btw, writing can be considered graven images... My posts are a waste of time. I can do better, but I don't.

By any chance you read the Book of Enoch??

Book of Enoch 69:8-10

[FONT=&quot]on the earth from that day and for evermore. And the fourth was named Pênêmûe: he taught the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]eternity and until this day. For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Pênêmûe is one of the fallen angels who deceived mankind to sinning. It also gives you an idea that our education system is evil...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]There is more to be known in that book. That all of the things we now about the human civilization, our technology, arts, trade and commerce which is the context of the word "world" in the the scriptures are all invented by the fallen angels - the sons of God who took human women as wives as described in Genesis. All these are considered evil and abominations by God...


...That's a pretty 'good' reason why that book did not made it into canon! With or without the Book of Enoch, anyone who earnestly seek God will find out why all the works of men are evil the anyway;)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Imagician I was just thinking on this very thing!

I thought about this as it relates to how in today's world, with all our technology, and because I am a photographer, I have studied a bit of history as regards to technology with cameras. Many advances in technology have come as a result of people in high places wanting their "likeness" preserved, and therefore they have poured money into finding ways to capture themselves.
It interests me that with all our hi-tech gadgets, which started with a simple idea for a device that could capture an image, we have so many distractions from God today. And we are getting farther and farther.

What if, and this is a big IF, as I fear I may be branded as an heretic for citing the possibility, graven images are pictures, sculptures, etc?

I find it refreshing that there ARE those that even contemplate the possibilities.

I believe if you follow this thread you may find some interesting insight that most have utterly ignored.

I would like to add this for the sake of the direction this thread was designed to follow:

2 Thessalonians 2:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

I believe that what is offered is that this 'falling away' will not be a matter of LESS 'religion'. It will be a 'falling away' from THE TRUTH. That as things progress, what was once recognized and followed will be trampled upon and ignored. Even to the extent that most men will begin to RESENT the very IDEA of 'the truth'. Choosing instead to follow whatever and wherever their lusts lead them.

We see in America at this very moment, such lusts being introduced that in the past would NEVER even have been contemplated. Gay marriage, Gay pastors, any sort of religion taken OUT of the SCHOOLS, the list is too long to even attempt to discuss in this thread.

So with this in mind, it certainly begs for a discussion on this issue of 'graven images'. There was a REASON that God's instruction was offered to refrain from creating 'graven images' and I believe that it is a pretty simple thing to understand when one is willing to open their minds and hearts to the Holy Spirit. Heck, maybe even a matter of 'common sense' so far as faith is concerned, (if any such thing even exists any longer. Let's just wait and see).

Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
An interesting thought is the many "worship symbols" we use can approach being graven images. Even an image of the cross or an Icthus stuck on the back of our car.

Ah Willie,

There IS hope YET. See, you TOO have questioned such practices that the majority seem to be oblivious to. Worshiping SYMBOLS. That is the EXACT purpose of this thread.

Do we WORSHIP the 'symbols' that we hold so dear to our hearts, in such a manner that we will advertise them as if they are 'representations of our very selves?

Let's see............


Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Or the images God told the Israelites to make and use in worship of Him.

These were VERY FEW and explicit and DIRECT instruction was given BY GOD to aspect of their design. Yes, God COMMANDED certain objects to be 'graven' for specific purposes.

But there is a difference in God KNOWING what is proper verses men making an effort to discern such things ON THEIR OWN.

in other words, God is obviously able to KNOW both 'good and evil' without being TEMPTED by the 'evil'.

We can look at it like this:

Adam and Eve were 'children' created in the IMAGE of God. God's plan was for them to GROW. Both the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, AND the tree of life were IN THE GARDEN. It is quite apparent that they were there FOR Adam and Eve. Just NOT YET.

God's intention was for Adam and Eve to GROW UP. But before they even gave themselves a CHANCE, they disobeyed and partook of the 'tree of knowledge of 'good and evil'.

Being so immature, they knew NOT how to DEAL with the knowledge of EVIL. They knew NOT how to RESIST temptation. And look at the struggle that has ensued since.

But on the other hand, it is clear that God is BEYOND maturity in the ability to DEAL with the knowledge of evil. So there are many things that God can do that are unable to put Him in a position to be tempted. Not so with men and their immaturity.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Again, then how do we explain God instructing the Israelites to create images in the worship of Him?

Bubba,

Do you believe that God KNOWS more than we do? Those images directed BY God were directed BY GOD. He NEVER told us that He would not DIRECT men to created images. He told men NOT TO CREATE THEM ON THEIR OWN.

It's like this:

You tell your children: "Do not play with matches". PERIOD.

Yet you go on a camping trip and teach your child how to start a fire with matches.

The difference is with INSTRUCTION. It's OK for the child to LIGHT a match for the proper PURPOSE. But it is NOT OK for the child to PLAY without proper INSTRUCTION and the maturity to learn and FOLLOW that instruction.

A Doctor writes someone a prescription with SPECIFIC instructions. Everyone knows that to ignore the instructions and abuse the drugs that there are potentially fatal results.

So is it THAT difficult to understand that God's warning was not an END all to graven images? It was a WARNING not to MAKE them ON ONE'S OWN without proper INSTRUCTION.

Let me put it another way. Let us suppose that there are GOOD images and there are BAD images. We simply don't know the DIFFERENCE without GUIDANCE. So we were instructed NOT TO MAKE THEM ON OUR OWN. But that is NOT instruction to ignore God or disobey God if He were to offer specific instructions for a graven image to be created for GOOD.

We don't let children DRIVE cars or play with guns. But after being TAUGHT the proper use of BOTH, and with direct instruction, as they MATURE, they are then allowed to do these things on their own.

it is no different with 'graven images'. I am SURE that if Adam and Eve had MATURED in the garden FIRST, there would have been NO NEED for a RULE about 'graven images'. They would have eventually understood the implications in the EXACT manner that God intended.

But that wasn't the case. BEFORE they matured they had their EYES opened to good AND EVIL and didn't know how to DEAL with the EVIL. So God ended up eventually giving INSTRUCTION when the TIME was RIGHT to give instruction.

And Bubba, there are SOME that are STILL 'growing' in maturity. While the majority of mankind are living lives like CHILDREN so far as the TRUTH is concerned, there ARE 'some' that are GROWING in maturity. Some that are able to grasp the TRUTH as offered by God and FOLLOW it.

But most men have chosen a path of their OWN design. What happens if you have a baby. Offer it food and shelter but NOTHING ELSE so far as guidance is concerned. Then when it is 18 years old, you simply booted it out the door to fend for itself. What sort of individual, compared to society in general, do you think this individual would be LIKE? Basically LOST to follow their OWN lusts. They wouldn't know ANYTHING about RULES or the RIGHT way to do ANYTHING. And that is what it is like for those that have NO 'spiritual' guidance. They are LEFT to fend for themselves and follow wherever their lusts lead them.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Again, then how do we explain God instructing the Israelites to create images in the worship of Him?

Do you speak of the Ark of the Covenant? Do you include the animal sacrifices in the temple as well?

If yes, then you make a very interesting point! In Isaiah 66, God referred to temples built by human hands and all forms of animal sacrifices, even grain offerings as abominations!^_^
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

x141

...
Sep 25, 2011
5,138
466
Where you are ...
Visit site
✟25,111.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When God revealed Himself to the Hebrews as their God, their KING, He offered them instructions, (as to children), of things that would be to their advantage to follow: The Law. And contained within this law were instruction designed to bring men closer to God and closer to EACH OTHER. A means of DOING that which is righteous verses allowing them to DO what they FELT like doing that could lead to their destruction.

The image is our perception of God through the son of God, just as the law became to them or just as the words thou shalt not eat became to them, it became a serpent in their path.
 
Upvote 0
H

hybrid

Guest
Again, then how do we explain God instructing the Israelites to create images in the worship of Him?

The spirit of the commandment was to prevent his people from going astray.
People worship images out of ignorance in lieu of the absence of the real thing.
So they worship the symbolic represantation instead.
Images allowed by god to be worship were endowed by his glorius presence like the holy of holies. Thus such "sanctioned" worship don't get his people astray.
 
Upvote 0

JoJo50

Trying to do Jehovah's will
Mar 7, 2011
227
5
✟7,983.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Private


Many are only shown Jehovah God’s word, from (Exo. 20:4), but there’s more like ,(Isa. 44;14) , which speaks of man making spiritual images Many rely on their spiritual items to protect them ,” worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.” Servants of Jehovah God/followers of Jesus SHOULD know, we don’t need spiritual images of anyone in Heaven to feel safe or belief they’re real. Besides imperfect man made them, which would mean it might NOT be true. (Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device). Look at the old pictures of what Jesus was said to look like, though I didn’t believe it even as a child. Later to find out my disbelief were right!

I see many having things like crosses all around their houses, was well as pictures of what supposed to be Jesus, rosary beads, prayer hands, etc. some even believe many of these things would scare the “evil dead” away. Sadly many aren’t taught ALL everyone sees, ARE DEMONS, NOT their dead love ones. Which shows those things DOESN’T scare them. Do anyone ever stop to think if they’re watching shows where a man calling himself, "father". Seem to take a long time getting demons out of someone? They usually have a cross and …”holy water”. Which sorry, but it is NOT HOLY, no matter how many WANTS to believe it is. When those demons decide to leave that person alone, he/they stop!

it WASN’T because someone SATAN sent ,(2Cor. 11:13-15), did it! Funny, as soon as some minister make a claim of being able to do these things, his flock act as though it’s Jesus who came back to earth. no one ever seem to stop and think… wait, Jesus didn’t need any graven images, or “holy water”, to remove demons! And they really DID leave, out of fear. But that was because unlike many false teachers today, Jesus wasn’t! he truly DID have those gifts, because he wasn’t half-stepping or straddling the fence. Like the many ministers then and today. Any who serve the God of Israel, and truly follow Jesus. Do it without images, because one truly feel safe with JUST the words of God, And have faith in his power over ALL, (John 4:24 , (Isa. 41:13 , and James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you).

And you’re right, Jehovah God does make sure through his words, if we follow them, he will help us. sadly though as you said many….” managed to REASON their way AROUND almost every bit of instruction offered” but there’s a reason why he tell us be NO part of the world , James 4:4 Ye” adulterers and adulteresses” ,(God WASN’T referring to the literal, these are “Christians” who does what the world do). (1John 2:15,16 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world), Jehovah God didn’t mean hate others.

Many Christians love to the point of trying to please man more than God, be-it their friends, love ones, or society. They do things like honor dead presidents. and follow many things satan planted, like Jesus birthdate, even though Jesus NEVER said to do this. BUT!... because society dictates, many follows. And the many who’s SUPPOSE to be leading their flocks down the right path, Leads them the wrong way ,(Matt. 23:13).

The saddest of all, MAN confess being a True Christians, THINKING, they have a first class ticket to Heaven. KNOWING, they’re following many things they KNOW Jesus wouldn’t do. And they basically let those who’s living fowl; believe it’s ok even though they KNOW in Jesus and Jehovah’s eyes it’s NOT! , (Exo. 23:1,2 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment).

But they ignore those things and continue to hang with them, because they don’t want to let them go. When we say many don’t want to listen to God’s words, are we some of them? True, God knows we’re imperfect and we will fall. But he ALSO know, when we follow what the world does, or hang with certain people, It’s because we WANT to! Before we check others, we better make sure we put ourselves in check. If we don’t Jehovah God trhough his son Jesus will! peace :)
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,202
5,877
✟296,775.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
But he ALSO know, when we follow what the world does, or hang with certain people, It’s because we WANT to! Before we check others, we better make sure we put ourselves in check. If we don’t Jehovah God trhough his son Jesus will! peace :)

Most Christians I know did not change from their unbelieving state after water baptism.

They simply were worldly people before and now worldly people who believes that God exist after.

The things men and women esteem are abominations to God. Obviously these are men and women who are unbelievers and the things they esteem are too many to list.

Those are the idols and not restricted to sculptures, etc. If you value anything created by human hands, then you have already idolized it. If you value your education, then you have idolized it. If you value your car, you go crazy with insurance and level 5 alarm, you have idolized it! You reason insurance will let you get something back if it's lost, then you have idolized money! You get something more than you need then you have idolized yourself, your comfort.

You reason, you do all these things is to glorify God. Then the only thing that makes you different from unbelievers is you run after what they esteem for God's glory...

You then run after what God sees as abominations in order to glorify Him?!

What about faith?? We take advantage of all the world's securities affordable, including financial security or we simply want to use as little faith as possible?? Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Many Christians today are not pleasing God, in fact, annoying Him!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Imagican

old dude
Jan 14, 2006
3,027
428
63
Orlando, Florida
✟45,021.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you speak of the Ark of the Covenant? Do you include the animal sacrifices in the temple as well?

If yes, then you make a very interesting point! In Isaiah 66, God referred to temples built by human hands and all forms of animal sacrifices, even grain offerings as abominations!^_^

Yes, sacrifices and the 'ark' came first, and THEN the temple itself. Exact designs were dictated for EACH.

I see ABSOLUTELY NO significance to your offering. Isaiah was one of the LAST Books of the OT. What I was referring to was the LAW or the instructions given to those that RECEIVED them originally.

What came into being six to eight hundred years later is irrelevant to the conversation.

That men's hearts became so darkened that God no longer placed any relevance in their sacrifices has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with their original offerings.

You make a comment about something that CHANGED as if it was that way in the beginning. What is YOUR point?

That's like trying to discredit the temple because God had it destroyed a thousand years later. One incident has absolutely NO bearing on the other.

So scripture written six to eight hundred years AFTER God gave instructions on sacrifice has little bearing on the original offerings. Certainly you are not trying to SAY that when God originally offered the instruction that sacrifice was an ABOMINATION to God?????????????

Blessings,

MEC
 
Upvote 0