What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

[sculleywr]

Translation: What I don't understand or feel comfortable with, I will translate as sin without Scriptural proof.

The Jews bowed to the bronze serpent at the command of God. Was that also idolatry?

No, they looked.

ok, I will give you that.

Ok you got me I would half to add that it depends on what's in the heart, like trusting for help in objects or dead humans instead of Christ alone would be the sin of Idolotry.

We trust that because of them and their prayers, Christ will hearken to work in our lives. It is not they who do the works, but Christ. Why do we believe this?

The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Who is more righteous of us than those of us who have fought the good fight and won the race?

The angels told them not to worship them, and said they were servants.

I would like to see that in Scripture instead of from somebody.

 

[Imagican]

It's not rocket science, Jesus says don't worship ANYTHING but Him.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

No, what God commanded and what Christ instructed us is to NOT worship ANYTHING as God EXCEPT God. I already offered the definition of 'worship'. If you choose to ignore it or alter it, that's up to you. But the definition of worship is to 'adore'. The definition of adore is 'love'.

If you are incapable of seeing beyond the teachings of men and simply accept what is offered in the Word, then I am certainly incapable of offering anything that you are going to be willing to accept.

I love God. I love my wife. But the love that I have in my heart for God is NOT the same as the love I have in my heart for my wife. I do NOT worship my wife AS God. And I do not worship God in the same manner as I worship my wife.

That you have never heard anyone use the term worship so far as the love they share with the family and neighbors doesn't ALTER the definition in the least.

So in TRUTH, what we have been offered is that we are to worship NO OTHER gods EXCEPT God. And we are to worship NOTHING as God EXCEPT God.

Christ OBVIOUSLY worshiped the MEN that He died for. There is NO OTHER word to describe such love that He offered.

It is apparent that many have been taught that 'worship' in indicative of 'falling on their knees in AWE'. When in truth, the word worship can mean something as simple as: to adore. To imagine that we have been instructed that we are NOT to 'adore' each other just shows how far the 'churches' have gone in an attempt to alter the definition of words.

Have had this discussion before. And it is obvious that some will simply refuse to understand what 'worship' means. I do NOT bow to my wife or children nor do I PRAY to them. But I DO ADORE them and in this respect, it is a form of 'worship'. A form completely DIFFERENT than the form that I offer to God and GOD ALONE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

So you say there are two different types of worship and I'm crazy for giving something other than worship to someone



The problem is that we do not see ourselves as kissing the object. In fact, the object itself is more of a telephone in that what we do in front of the Icon passes to the prototype of the Icon. For us, it is not the Icon we kiss or bow before, or (in the case of Icons of Christ) prostrate before. It is the person depicted. We bow in reverence to the Saints who died for the faith because of what Christ did through them. We bow in reverence and worship before Christ for what He does in us.



Nice. You're telling ME why I do what I do. You must be a real good psychic, cause you can read MY thoughts and MY intentions better than I can.

No, it is not the image we pray to. And in fact, no Orthodox Christian and properly taught Roman Catholic will say they pray to the image itself. What you are saying is both prejudiced and ridiculous, because you propse that you know why another person does something. Here's a tip:

When I tell you the reason I do something and how I do it, don't attempt to correct me about it. You are not God, therefore, you do not know me better than I know myself.



Definition of worship:

2worship verb
worshipped also worshipedworship·ping also worship·ing
Definition of WORSHIP

transitive verb
1
: to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2
: to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>

The first use of the verb is the proper use. The second definition of the verb is the sinful worship.

In the Orthodox Church, Worship is defined as that which is due ONLY to God. In other words, if you "worship" your wife, then you have given to your wife that which is due only to God.

Reverence and veneration is very much different. You reverence someone when you call them by the titles of Doctor, Reverend, "Your Honor", and Mr. President. Or maybe you have called your mother and father by the respectful terms of Sir or Ma'am



Actually, it is not the wooden statues which we see the life in, but the prototype, the person depicted, being raised to new life in Christ in the Baptism, anointed with the Spirit in Chrismation, and brought to Theosis (Sanctification) through his daily struggle against the passions; He is the person in which we see life. Apart from him or her, and Christ, the Icon can have no meaning. The Icon has meaning because Christ was born, lived in a human body which could be reproduced in a physical form as art, and died, being resurrected the third day, defeating Death by His own holy and willing Death on the Cross.

That is where the Icons find life. Not in themselves. Not in us. In God, through Christ, delivered by the work of the Holy Spirit in the actions and lives of our holy fathers, the martyrs, theologians, saints, apostles, patriarchs and monastics who have brought us the Scriptures AND the Icons together in every century.

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. In the ORTHODOX Church. Which I am certainly not affiliated with. The ORTHODOX Church is THE Church that has taught YOU that it's OK to 'bow to a statue and pray'. It is the ORTHODOX Church that has taught you to ONLY consider THEIR definition of words that have many DIFFERENT meanings. It is also the Orthodox Church that use to burn people alive if they refused to FOLLOW their teachings. So it is NO SURPRISE to me that many of THEIR teachings still 'linger'.

And if the Orthodox Church had worshiped it's congregation in the same manner that Christ worshiped those that He died for, there would have been no such torture or murder of those that were their 'sheep'.

So you can see what confidence I place in the Orthodox Church.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

He translates it as worship. It is veneration, not worship, and the dictionary makes the difference clear. Worship is referenced to the divine. Veneration is not.

And once again, you are INCORRECT:

wor·ship&#8194; &#8194;[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.
noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

5. ( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).


6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).








8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9. to attend services of divine worship.

10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.



ven·er·ate

&#8194; &#8194;[ven-uh-reyt] Show IPA
verb (used with object), ven·er·at·ed, ven·er·at·ing. to regard or treat with reverence; revere.

Relevant Questions



Origin:
1615–25; < Latin vener&#257;tus, past participle of vener&#257;r&#299; to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, verbal derivative of vener-, stem of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus)

And I already pointed out that the use of the words venerate, or revere, or whatever else one uses to alter the meaning of 'bowing to a statue and praying', the TRUTH is, God instructed His Children not to do such things. Once again, let us SEE what words were offered:


Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

I don't know how it could be offered any CLEARER. This STATES that those that love and follow God are NOT TO MAKE ANY GRAVEN IMAGE. Now, the only thing that is really debatable is the definition of 'GRAVEN IMAGE'. That men were instructed NOT TO DO IT is not even debatable.

So, is that statue of Jesus, or Mary, or one of the Saints that exists within a building called a 'church' a "GRAVEN IMAGE"? Are they in the LIKENESS of ANYTHING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth? The answer is quite obvious.

And then there is the FACT that these images are not even ACCURATE images to begin with. I have seen many and NO TWO are ALIKE. So that means that they are 'false images'. They do not even replicate the actual appearance of what they are SUPPOSE to represent.

So in truth, EVERYTHING about such images REEKS of idolatry. They ARE 'graven images', 'they do NOT accurately represent what they are suppose to'. And 'people are taught to bow and pray to them', (or as you put it, what they REPRESENT). Either way, according to MY understanding of what the Bible offers, it is WORSHIP plain and simple. And not only worship, but going against the commandment NOT to make such 'graven images' to BEGIN with.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Translation: What I don't understand or feel comfortable with, I will translate as sin without Scriptural proof.

The Jews bowed to the bronze serpent at the command of God. Was that also idolatry?

Men in the book of II Samuel and I Chronicles bowed before David. Was that idolatry?

Men were constantly bowing before angels, and while the angels told them not to fear, they were not even implied to be worshiping.

Of course it was NOT idolatry AGAINST God for it was directly commanded and commissioned BY God. There is a difference. And here it is:

God KNOWS what is 'good' and what is NOT. Men have struggled with this question of 'good and evil' even after GIVEN INSTRUCTION.

God can certainly command that we offer sacrifices to NO OTHER God while accepting those sacrifices WHOLE heartedly when offered to Himself.

And it is no different with 'graven images'. He is perfectly capable of instructed us NOT TO DO THINGS ON OUR OWN. But it is perfectly acceptable to do some of those same things WITH INSTRUCTION.

It is no different than you telling your son, "DO NOT PLAY WITH MATCHES". Yet when you go camping, you allow your son, WITH YOUR SUPERVISION, to strike a match and light a lantern or a fire.

We are told that it is a CRIME to use prescription drugs WITHOUT a prescription. But it is OK to use them WITH a prescription.

These principles are NO DIFFERENT than God commanding His children NOT to make graven images. But if a situation requires men to make a 'graven image' according to the instructions of God HIMSELF, it is perfectly acceptable.

The difference is that God KNEW that if men were FREE to make their OWN graven images that they would end up WORSHIPING them. So to protect men, He commanded them NOT TO MAKE THEM AT ALL.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Look folks, this thread was started in the hopes of discussing 'graven images'. I did not address a SINGLE response to Skuly UNTIL he interjected that it's OK to 'bow' to graven images so long as they represent something HE believes in. I did not START the 'argument', I simply tried my best to explain that, "JUST because he has chosen to follow the teachings of a 'church', doesn't mean that this is an EXCUSE to DO that which God has commanded men, (those that love Him and follow His commandments), NOT TO DO.

Unless the Catholic Church can SHOW that these 'graven images' were DIRECTLY inspired by God Himself, they ERR in their bowing to them and praying. They ARE worshiping 'graven images' no matter HOW they attempt to 'talk around it'. No different than praying to a 'tiki doll' or 'Giant Owl' or 'golden calf', bowing and praying to a graven image was forbidden by God.

I didn't 'make up the rules'. I have simply read them and try to follow them to the best of my understanding and ability.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[sculleywr]

Look folks, this thread was started in the hopes of discussing 'graven images'. I did not address a SINGLE response to Skuly UNTIL he interjected that it's OK to 'bow' to graven images so long as they represent something HE believes in. I did not START the 'argument', I simply tried my best to explain that, "JUST because he has chosen to follow the teachings of a 'church', doesn't mean that this is an EXCUSE to DO that which God has commanded men, (those that love Him and follow His commandments), NOT TO DO.

Unless the Catholic Church can SHOW that these 'graven images' were DIRECTLY inspired by God Himself, they ERR in their bowing to them and praying. They ARE worshiping 'graven images' no matter HOW they attempt to 'talk around it'. No different than praying to a 'tiki doll' or 'Giant Owl' or 'golden calf', bowing and praying to a graven image was forbidden by God.

I didn't 'make up the rules'. I have simply read them and try to follow them to the best of my understanding and ability.

Blessings,

MEC

Yeah we are worshiping "graven images in the same way that you get up each day and go about beaming things up to the starships that are flying through the air.

You and I have no common ground upon which to speak because you purport to know what I do and why I do it better than I know it myself. Here are the rules you have set:

1. The only acceptable translation of a Hebrew word is your translation.
2. Any translation that disagrees with it, even if it comes from a person who is fluent in ancient and modern Hebrew, is wrong.
3. Your interpretation is the only applicable interpretation no matter what anyone says, including the people who compiled the Scriptures and died for the Scriptures and the Icons.
4. You know what I think and do better than I do.
5. Veneration and reverence are the same as worship, but there are two types of worship.
6. You are allowed to worship your family members, but we are not allowed to pay respect and honor to the people who died because they taught the truth in a world full of persecution and torture.

All of these rules, derived from your circular posts, are unrealistic, prejudiced, and, in some cases, double standards. No matter how you cut it, however, these rules are all wrong in the sense that they are neither Christian, nor ethical.

They are not Christian practices because Christianity requires the assumption that you might be wrong. In other words, your translation, interpretation, application, or even your source might be wrong. They are unethical because they assume that you are the arbiter of truth, which is not how ethics works. Ethics depends on an objective set of standards. The set of standards you have set is not objective, because it does not depend on something outside of your accepted truth.

It is obvious to me that neither you or I, nor anyone else, will be able to glean any new knowledge from further discussion with you. If, perhaps, you could actually answer the points presented, instead of countering with another round of the same dogma rehashed in new words; then, maybe, we could actually have some constructive conversation.

However, until such time as you decide to answer me with something you have not said before in another way, without telling me what I do, we will not have further discussion.

 

[1509]

No, what God commanded and what Christ instructed us is to NOT worship ANYTHING as God EXCEPT God. I already offered the definition of 'worship'. If you choose to ignore it or alter it, that's up to you. But the definition of worship is to 'adore'. The definition of adore is 'love'.

If you are incapable of seeing beyond the teachings of men and simply accept what is offered in the Word, then I am certainly incapable of offering anything that you are going to be willing to accept.

I love God. I love my wife. But the love that I have in my heart for God is NOT the same as the love I have in my heart for my wife. I do NOT worship my wife AS God. And I do not worship God in the same manner as I worship my wife.

That you have never heard anyone use the term worship so far as the love they share with the family and neighbors doesn't ALTER the definition in the least.

So in TRUTH, what we have been offered is that we are to worship NO OTHER gods EXCEPT God. And we are to worship NOTHING as God EXCEPT God.

Christ OBVIOUSLY worshiped the MEN that He died for. There is NO OTHER word to describe such love that He offered.

It is apparent that many have been taught that 'worship' in indicative of 'falling on their knees in AWE'. When in truth, the word worship can mean something as simple as: to adore. To imagine that we have been instructed that we are NOT to 'adore' each other just shows how far the 'churches' have gone in an attempt to alter the definition of words.

Have had this discussion before. And it is obvious that some will simply refuse to understand what 'worship' means. I do NOT bow to my wife or children nor do I PRAY to them. But I DO ADORE them and in this respect, it is a form of 'worship'. A form completely DIFFERENT than the form that I offer to God and GOD ALONE.

Blessings,

MEC

I hope you don't prostrate yourself before your wife. LOL

​

“worship”
(Heb. shachah) (Deut. 26:10; Gen. 23:7; 37:7, Lev. 26:1) Strong’s #7812: The most common Hebrew word for worship literally means “to cause oneself to lie prostrate.” In ancient times, a person would fall down before someone who possessed a higher status. People would bow before a king to express complete submission to his rule. Joseph’s brothers recognized the cultural significance of “bowing down” when they reacted so vehemently against Joseph’s dream (Gen. 37:5–8). Bowing down to Joseph meant they were submitting to his authority. Following the example of the ancient people of faith, true Christian worship must express more than love for God, it must also express submission to His will.
​

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=61663162#_ftn1
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=61663162#_ftnref1Radmacher, Earl D. ; Allen, Ronald Barclay ; House, H. Wayne: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Commentary. Nashville : T. Nelson Publishers, 1999, S. Dt 26:8

 

[Imagican]

First, I do not view God as come UNAPPROACHABLE force that can be represented by an 'idol'. The relationship that I possess with our Heavenly Father is just that: a relationship that exists as a Father with His son. For that is what Christ has done for us. He has offered a bridge between the gap that once existed between The Father and His children. And the entire purpose of that 'bridge' is LOVE.

Once one's heart has been opened, it is then that one is able to comprehend love and share it both Godward and towards one's neighbor. The Love that I share with God through His Son IS the manner in which I offer my 'worship'.

I am also able to worship those that have been created IN HIS IMAGE: my family and neighbors.

The FACT that the one LARGEST issue that has kept the Jews from sharing God's Love has been their utter lack of LEARNING the lessons that have been offered. God offered the LAW in order to TEACH them 'love'. They simply became followers of the LAW instead of learning what they LAW was meant to teach.

So it comes as no surprise to me that there are MANY that would find the use of the word "worship" to be limited in the manner that many here have offered.

The Word instructs us to worship NO other God's except the one TRUE God. I worship NO other God's except the ONE True God. And the manner in which I worship God is through the LOVE that I am able to share with Him through His Son.

But I have also been instructed to LOVE my neighbor AS myself. And in that instruction is to offer my heart to others in a 'sharing of love'. Instead of allowing men to define the love that I share with God and the love that I share with my neighbor, I am plenty capable of discernment of MY OWN in an understanding that what I adore or what I LOVE is what I WORSHIP. That means that in essence, I worship those that I love.

But I have also been instructed not to let my love for myself or my neighbors 'get in the way' of loving GOD FIRST and as my Heavenly Father and Creator. So as long as my 'worship' of others is placed in the proper perspective that is exactly what I have been instructed to DO.

When God's Son was asked which is the most important commandment, the answer wasn't, "Worship God". The answer was "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul". Not a word about worship. But in TRUTH, that IS exactly what 'worship' IS: offering one's love. And Christ didn't stop with the FIRST, He went on to offer, "Love your neighbor as yourself". The common denominator of these two is simply: LOVE.

We are also instructed that the 'greatest' act that a man can perform is to sacrifice HIS LIFE for that of another. The exact example we were give by God through Christ. An act that most men would never even DREAM of, much less accomplish.

In my understanding, the worship that God requests is nothing other than our unobstructed LOVE. And He has also required us to offer our love towards EACH OTHER as well. I would offer that He has required us to offer the EXACT same love among ourselves as we are to share with Him. The ONLY difference being that we are to love God ABOVE the love we offer among ourselves. And the only manner that this is TRULY possible is in the recognition that He is our CREATOR. For once one comes to a proper understanding of love, it is nothing other than sharing or GIVING. And the ONLY manner that we can love God ABOVE another is in recognition of Him as OUR CREATOR.

We worship that which we adore. I have witnessed those that worship drugs, money, sex, power, prestige, cars, homes, jewelry, clothing, guns, knives, music, THEMSELVES above God or neighbor. And I am sure that others recognize the truth in my words for they TOO have witness that of which I speak. The Bible WARNS us not to WORSHIP these 'things' or even OURSELVES above God or others.

Now, if one is unable to SEE that it's possible to worship 'things' and then say that it is WRONG to worship each other, I don't know what else to offer. For what we worship is that which we place our TIME and EFFORTS into. That which we VALUE over ALL ELSE. And what we have been commanded to place in such a position is God FIRST and each other a close second.

And if you have never contemplated this issue of 'worship', I ask this: Which do you suppose God would RATHER one worship: 'things' or 'each other'? So long as we place GOD FIRST in our hearts, we ARE to share our hearts with EACH OTHER was well. And if that is not worship, then I have certainly been misled in MY understanding of it. NO, not from MEN intent upon teaching me THEIR WAY, but through the Holy Spirit leading me to an understanding of LOVE, (worship), and where to place it in my heart.

The ENTIRE REASON that we have been instructed NOT to allow "things" into our heart to be worshiped is to reserve this 'act' of sharing to God and each other. WE, (those that will be granted eternal life), will end up sharing our love eternally. With God, AND with each other. And just imagine what a concept we have been offered if each man worshiped his neighbor equal to himself. Was willing to sacrifice himself for God and his neighbor. That is exactly what God has wished for us to LEARN. That is EXACTLY why He sent His Son to DIE for us. To show us 'the example' of pure unadulterated LOVE. A love that transcends SELF and is able to place OTHERS FIRST. God FIRST and our neighbors AS OURSELVES.

I say that a man that is able to accomplish this is perfectly within God's will in worshiping HIMSELF. Not AS God, but AS a perfect 'creation' of God. And when we learn to worship ourselves in the PROPER perspective, it is THEN and ONLY then that we are able to offer OTHERS this same LOVE. For it is IMPOSSIBLE to love others as yourself if you refuse to learn to love yourself FIRST.

NO, not SELFISH love. Merely the desire to allow oneself to DO that which they were created to DO. And that is SHARE THEIR LOVE with GOD FIRST and their neighbors AS THEMSELVES. I reserve the RIGHT to 'worship' myself as the IMAGE in which I was created. And in LEARNING to worship that 'image' I am able to learn to SHARE it with God and OTHERS.

So twist words as you have been TAUGHT by your churches. That is up to you. I have learned what I understand NOT through the teachings of others. I have come to the understanding that I offer through God's Word and the guidance of His very Spirit. And I can assure you that He is MUCH MORE PLEASED in those that would serve Him and one's neighbors in a Fatherly love and worship and a brotherly love and worship than those that choose to worship THINGS, (graven images).

And NO, I do NOT bow to my wife or my neighbor. I reserve THAT worship for God and God alone. When I pray I do NOT pray TO my wife or neighbor, I pray TO GOD through His Holy Son. I NEED no images carved in the likeness of MEN in order to worship God and His Son. And I need NO MAN attempting to thwart God's will in an undue or unnatural defining of WORDS. I KNOW what 'worship is' and I KNOW that there is NOTHING wrong with offering it to ourselves and each other. It is totally crucial that we know the DISTINCTION between the worship that we offer God and the worship that we offer ourselves and each other. But to LOVE is to worship. And I can offer that the only reason that most have failed to recognize this is a failure to come to a proper understanding of and ability to offer their LOVE or WORSHIP.

And the FUNNIEST part of this entire 'hang up' we have encountered in this conversation is that those that will insist that we are ONLY to worship God are the same ones that would make such statements as, "I love ice cream". Or "I love steak". Totally oblivious to the FACT that by merely offering such statements is offering PROOF that they worship ITEMS as they are ONLY suppose to worship God or each other. Spend their money on 'Gator hats' or 'Concert tickets' while their neighbors hunger or live in need. SHOWING that they worship THEMSELVES MORE than God or MORE than their neighbors. And then try and explain what worship is when they themselves haven't the FIRST CLUE.

What I hear when those that are opposed to worshiping their neighbors AS themselves is reminiscent of those that CHOOSE to bow to 'statues' and such. Those that have followed in the paths that pagan worshipers once followed and many still do. NEEDING some 'form' or 'graven image' to focus their LOVE and devotion to.

I NEED no such objects and refuse to allow such objects to have power over me or my worship. For I RESERVE that worship for God, myself and my neighbor. I choose to SHARE my devotion with God and my neighbors. I ADORE God and I adore my neighbor. And if the circumstances should arise, it is MY HOPE that I would be ABLE to sacrifice MY life for the life of another. And if that is not 'worship', then you can just call me 'confused'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The purpose of this thread was to discuss 'things'. Graven images. And what place in our heart we are to ALLOW such 'things'.

The sad part is that many our NEIGHBORS, intent upon greed and selfish SELF LOVE, would have us believe that it's OK to worship THINGS. They would sell us 'things' for this very purpose. Create 'things' that would redirect our love and worship from one direction into another that is totally contrary to the instruction God has offered us in Word and Spirit.

KNOWING that this was not only possible, but LIKELY, God gave instruction that those that love Him SHOULD NOT create their OWN 'graven images' to LEARN to love and offer their worship to. To keep His children separate from those that choose to LIVE IN THE FLESH, he offered Spiritual understanding able to KEEP us from erring.

The 'graven image' is ANYTHING made by the hands of men that is capable of attracting our love or worship. I see many men today that LOVE or WORSHIP their 'smart phones' more than God or their neighbors. Love their CARS more than God or their neighbors and offer their cars WORSHIP that they refuse to offer God or their neighbors. Men that would expend MORE worship towards their JOBS or CLOTHING or bank accounts than God or their neighbors.

For folks, what you worship IS that which you adore. Whether is be a 'graven image', God or each other. What you expend your energy upon IS that which you worship whether you are willing or able to admit it or not.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

you know Scully, in this discussion you have been the RUDEST member of this forum that I have encountered. You seem to think that you can BULLY your way into being heard. And if that doesn't work, you can then resort to personal insults. I have been as patient and polite as possible.

I am sure that it has become apparent to all others following this post that such tactics are CERTAINLY not 'gleamed' from scripture. That you seem to think that if you Bully people ENOUGH you will somehow WIN what you are trying to WIN.

But the truth is that I didn't TEACH you to bow to bow and pray to 'graven images'. ALL I have tried to do is offer you a bit of insight into the reason God commanded His children NOT TO DO IT.

But such comments as this:

Yeah we are worshiping "graven images in the same way that you get up each day and go about beaming things up to the starships that are flying through the air.

are about as childish and uncalled for as they could be. Not only do such comments go against the TOS to post on the forums, they are personally insulting in a manner that I find utterly 'un-Christian-like', (similar to the same tactics used by the 'church' that you follow in attempting to FORCE others to accept what they SAY or be considered outcasts). Certainly NOT the manner that Christ instructed us to share our love with one another.

While I have certainly offered information that would go AGAINST what you have chosen to follow, I have NOT ONCE chosen to attack you personally in an attempt to take my anger or frustration out ON YOU.

You already stated NUMEROUS posts ago that you would no longer address my posts on this issue. So not only are you rude and personally insulting to others, you are LESS THAN TRUTHFUL as well.

So in my opinion, you have pretty much proven that whatever you have to offer has absolutely NO validity. You are a RUDE and insolent YOUNGSTER that obviously learned LITTLE in your studies so far as how to interact with others. I hope that as you age this will change and one day you will learn HOW to interact with others in a more mature manner. And learn how to be more honest with yourself and others as well.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I hope you don't prostrate yourself before your wife. LOL

“worship”
(Heb. shachah) (Deut. 26:10; Gen. 23:7; 37:7, Lev. 26:1) Strong’s #7812: The most common Hebrew word for worship literally means “to cause oneself to lie prostrate.” In ancient times, a person would fall down before someone who possessed a higher status. People would bow before a king to express complete submission to his rule. Joseph’s brothers recognized the cultural significance of “bowing down” when they reacted so vehemently against Joseph’s dream (Gen. 37:5–8). Bowing down to Joseph meant they were submitting to his authority. Following the example of the ancient people of faith, true Christian worship must express more than love for God, it must also express submission to His will.
​

Radmacher, Earl D. ; Allen, Ronald Barclay ; House, H. Wayne: Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Commentary. Nashville : T. Nelson Publishers, 1999, S. Dt 26:8

No I don't. But I do worship her in the same manner that Christ worshiped ALL OF US in sharing His love with us even when we were His enemies.

And I make attempts to worship ALL, (everyone), that I come in contact with in the SAME manner. It is my hope and desire that I am able to offer that which is able to HELP those that I encounter. That I am able to LOOK OUT for THEIR well being as well as my own.

And I don't let 'words' defined by 'churches' guide me in my endeavors. I allow The Word and The Spirit to guide me in understanding through conviction.

And let me offer this: If each of us were to LEARN to worship everyone else, looking out for the well fare of others instead of ourselves, what a PERFECT Kingdom we would be part of. Heaven in fact. For if each was concerned with DOING for others one would NEVER HAVE to 'look out for themselves'. Each would be able to live without being concerned with their OWN well being for each that they encountered would be making sure that there was NO NEED for any one to feel 'left out' or for anyone to focus upon THEMSELVES.

While there have been those in this thread that would insist that it is unBiblical to worship ANYTHING but God and GOD ALONE, I would wager that these are plenty able to worship THINGS without even being willing to acknowledge it. Ready to FIGHT if someone scratched their car or UNWILLING to part with a single item that they have placed their faith in.

So I don't LET such ideas BLIND me to the truth. The truth is that God actually 'worships' US. He adores us and has proven this through our very creation. The FACT that we exists shows just how MUCH He adores us.

No, God does not BOW or PRAY to us. That sort of worship is reserved FOR Him. But He certainly is more than capable of LEADING us in a proper direction if we are but WILLING to listen and follow. While we are instructed to HONOR our parents, (which God is CHIEF), they too have been instructed to share their love with their children as well. And so long as we DO NOT place the love that we share with our families ABOVE that which we share with God, there is NOTHING wrong with this sort of 'worship'. Only in the minds and hearts of them that have chosen to misinterpret what 'worship' is.

And how many of those that would argue this point wouldn't hesitate to use the phrase in their daily conversations? You know, like: "I LOVE that car". or "I LOVE ice cream". Yet try and tell me that our worship is reserved for God and God alone.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[1509]

deleted

scull, I recommend the following book to you

Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?: Robert A. Morey: 9781931230353: Amazon.com: Books

 

[sculleywr]

scull, I recommend the following book to you

Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?: Robert A. Morey: 9781931230353: Amazon.com: Books

Nice. Besides spelling and grammar errors, the sources of that particular book are the popular sources rather than the scholarly sources. Additionally, he comes at Eastern Orthodoxy according to his personal understanding of it rather than taking the doctrines of the Orthodox Church at what WE say they are. He approaches Orthodoxy with a presupposed answer and stacks the deck, rather than put the evidence of both sides forth. Several reviews by graduate level PROTESTANTS on Amazon have said that it is not a reliable book, and there are much better, less biased, books out there.

Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian? Yes, it is. It always has been for 2000 years, and will be for 2000 more.

As to the topic, what in the Jimmy Crack Corn does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[sculleywr]

you know Scully, in this discussion you have been the RUDEST member of this forum that I have encountered. You seem to think that you can BULLY your way into being heard. And if that doesn't work, you can then resort to personal insults. I have been as patient and polite as possible.

I am sure that it has become apparent to all others following this post that such tactics are CERTAINLY not 'gleamed' from scripture. That you seem to think that if you Bully people ENOUGH you will somehow WIN what you are trying to WIN.

But the truth is that I didn't TEACH you to bow to bow and pray to 'graven images'. ALL I have tried to do is offer you a bit of insight into the reason God commanded His children NOT TO DO IT.

But such comments as this:

Yeah we are worshiping "graven images in the same way that you get up each day and go about beaming things up to the starships that are flying through the air.

are about as childish and uncalled for as they could be. Not only do such comments go against the TOS to post on the forums, they are personally insulting in a manner that I find utterly 'un-Christian-like', (similar to the same tactics used by the 'church' that you follow in attempting to FORCE others to accept what they SAY or be considered outcasts). Certainly NOT the manner that Christ instructed us to share our love with one another.

While I have certainly offered information that would go AGAINST what you have chosen to follow, I have NOT ONCE chosen to attack you personally in an attempt to take my anger or frustration out ON YOU.

You already stated NUMEROUS posts ago that you would no longer address my posts on this issue. So not only are you rude and personally insulting to others, you are LESS THAN TRUTHFUL as well.

So in my opinion, you have pretty much proven that whatever you have to offer has absolutely NO validity. You are a RUDE and insolent YOUNGSTER that obviously learned LITTLE in your studies so far as how to interact with others. I hope that as you age this will change and one day you will learn HOW to interact with others in a more mature manner. And learn how to be more honest with yourself and others as well.

Blessings,

MEC

1. Yes I am abrasive. In fact, I take very unkindly toward people who tell me what I think instead of asking me what I think. Especially when I have TOLD you my beliefs. In fact, I have put it quite plainly what Orthodoxy teaches about Icons, and you have done nothing but use misinformation and even outright lies to bolster your opinion. The greatest example is your insistence that we worship Icons. We do nothing of the sort, have said as much, and will never teach people to worship Icons. You on the other hand, draw a distinction that approves of worshiping your wife and children. Which is worse? honoring great people in the faith or worshiping sinful humans?

2. This entire post is ad hominem. Attacking the person says nothing about what he says. In fact, in court, this kind of attack would be called badgering, and would be grounds for contempt.

3. I believe I said I am not responding, but I make this one exception in the light that you are trying to defeat my logic by attacking my credibility. I have posted several sources as evidence. Including Scripture and actual words in the Bible from the original languages. You have insisted that we have to follow your rules. Well, OP or not, I do not follow rules that are not logical. I will use the rules of logic rather than the rules of imagican.

 

[Imagican]

Skully,

I don't NEED to attack your credibility. You have shown yourself to everyone else that has read your posts as well.

And this is NOT your first response SINCE you stated you weren't going to.

If you told me you believed in Big Foot, I BELIEVE I have just as much RIGHT to challenge your belief as you do to OFFER it.

And trying to talk 'around' the issue so far as your beliefs in NO way offers any such PROOF that your are doing anything BUT talking 'around' the issue.

The issue is 'graven images'. Statues contained within those churches that create or display them ARE 'graven images'. To attempt to 'talk around' this fact doesn't alter it in the LEAST. It just shows to what lengths one will go in order to try and deny the truth.

The TRUTH is that a 'graven images' is NOT up to YOU to define, it has already BEEN defined by God in His Word. So the ONLY avenue one would even HAVE in defense of bowing to a 'statue' and praying is to try and convince others that this is NOT WORSHIP. But the FACT that you bow to statues and pray isn't even something that can be argued. And those statues ARE 'graven images'.

I have not ONCE told you what you believe. I have simply pointed out that what you believe is askew according to the Word. I have quoted scripture that plainly points out my points in detail.

So if you were to offer the TRUTH concerning this issue, what you would be forced to admit is that you don't like the BIBLE telling you that what you believe is a 'false belief'. For ALL I have done concerning our discussion of 'graven images' is QUOTE the Bible. So it's the BIBLE that dictates the definition of what you do, not me. I simply understand what is offered in the Bible.

And once again, your attitude goes quite far in showing what you follow and how you follow it. Me pointing it out didn't CREATE it nor justify it's existence. It's simply a matter of fact that you would try and dismiss by blaming your anger and frustration on 'someone else'. And that is about as immature as one can deal with their OWN issues with anger and belligerence: try and shuffle the blame on someone else. Go tell THAT to the 'courts' and they have classes for ya.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[sculleywr]

Skully,

I don't NEED to attack your credibility. You have shown yourself to everyone else that has read your posts as well.

And this is NOT your first response SINCE you stated you weren't going to.

If you told me you believed in Big Foot, I BELIEVE I have just as much RIGHT to challenge your belief as you do to OFFER it.

And trying to talk 'around' the issue so far as your beliefs in NO way offers any such PROOF that your are doing anything BUT talking 'around' the issue.

The issue is 'graven images'. Statues contained within those churches that create or display them ARE 'graven images'. To attempt to 'talk around' this fact doesn't alter it in the LEAST. It just shows to what lengths one will go in order to try and deny the truth.

The TRUTH is that a 'graven images' is NOT up to YOU to define, it has already BEEN defined by God in His Word. So the ONLY avenue one would even HAVE in defense of bowing to a 'statue' and praying is to try and convince others that this is NOT WORSHIP. But the FACT that you bow to statues and pray isn't even something that can be argued. And those statues ARE 'graven images'.

I have not ONCE told you what you believe. I have simply pointed out that what you believe is askew according to the Word. I have quoted scripture that plainly points out my points in detail.

So if you were to offer the TRUTH concerning this issue, what you would be forced to admit is that you don't like the BIBLE telling you that what you believe is a 'false belief'. For ALL I have done concerning our discussion of 'graven images' is QUOTE the Bible. So it's the BIBLE that dictates the definition of what you do, not me. I simply understand what is offered in the Bible.

And once again, your attitude goes quite far in showing what you follow and how you follow it. Me pointing it out didn't CREATE it nor justify it's existence. It's simply a matter of fact that you would try and dismiss by blaming your anger and frustration on 'someone else'. And that is about as immature as one can deal with their OWN issues with anger and belligerence: try and shuffle the blame on someone else. Go tell THAT to the 'courts' and they have classes for ya.

Blessings,

MEC

You have not challenged my belief. You have replaced it with your own. The belief you claim is mine is as true as the claim that I am an octopus.

 

[hybrid]

Imo existence was created and is being created by the process of imaging.
Christ the logos is the image of the father.
And we are the image of christ ideally speaking at least.
Making us Children of god . Our true identity.

And then we in turn create our own self- image.
This self image is where we derived our identity.
This self image is formed by our environment and other factors.
It is a conditioning that defines who we think we are.
Being our identity, everything is justified and interpreted according to our sel image.

Now creating graven images is another layer of imaging.
This time projected by the self image.
It seems to be the nature since creating images is a universal phenomenon.
Humans simply are image creators just like god.

If we are an onion, and at the core is our divine inheritance and true identity,
And imaging is an external projection further away from the core
We can see that the self image is in the outer layer of our true identity.
Thus away from god. Now the self image or egoic mind may think that relating to images makes us closer to god.
Without realising it is another layer between god and us.
I hope that this illustration would shed some light to our understanding.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Make your own cement people video

Sculpting a female head in clay. Sculpting tutorial and demo. - YouTube

Or clay

 

[sculleywr]

Imo existence was created and is being created by the process of imaging.
Christ the logos is the image of the father.
And we are the image of christ ideally speaking at least.
Making us Children of god . Our true identity.

And then we in turn create our own self- image.
This self image is where we derived our identity.
This self image is formed by our environment and other factors.
It is a conditioning that defines who we think we are.
Being our identity, everything is justified and interpreted according to our sel image.

Now creating graven images is another layer of imaging.
This time projected by the self image.
It seems to be the nature since creating images is a universal phenomenon.
Humans simply are image creators just like god.

If we are an onion, and at the core is our divine inheritance and true identity,
And imaging is an external projection further away from the core
We can see that the self image is in the outer layer of our true identity.
Thus away from god. Now the self image or egoic mind may think that relating to images makes us closer to god.
Without realising it is another layer between god and us.
I hope that this illustration would shed some light to our understanding.

In a way you are right, but instead of worshiping the image of God, we worship God THROUGH the image. We use images like we use songs and prayers. We do not worship the songs and prayers. Neither do we worship the images. We worship the Person depicted in the image: Christ.