What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

[sculleywr]

Skully,

I don't NEED to attack your credibility. You have shown yourself to everyone else that has read your posts as well.

And this is NOT your first response SINCE you stated you weren't going to.

If you told me you believed in Big Foot, I BELIEVE I have just as much RIGHT to challenge your belief as you do to OFFER it.

And trying to talk 'around' the issue so far as your beliefs in NO way offers any such PROOF that your are doing anything BUT talking 'around' the issue.

The issue is 'graven images'. Statues contained within those churches that create or display them ARE 'graven images'. To attempt to 'talk around' this fact doesn't alter it in the LEAST. It just shows to what lengths one will go in order to try and deny the truth.

The TRUTH is that a 'graven images' is NOT up to YOU to define, it has already BEEN defined by God in His Word. So the ONLY avenue one would even HAVE in defense of bowing to a 'statue' and praying is to try and convince others that this is NOT WORSHIP. But the FACT that you bow to statues and pray isn't even something that can be argued. And those statues ARE 'graven images'.

I have not ONCE told you what you believe. I have simply pointed out that what you believe is askew according to the Word. I have quoted scripture that plainly points out my points in detail.

So if you were to offer the TRUTH concerning this issue, what you would be forced to admit is that you don't like the BIBLE telling you that what you believe is a 'false belief'. For ALL I have done concerning our discussion of 'graven images' is QUOTE the Bible. So it's the BIBLE that dictates the definition of what you do, not me. I simply understand what is offered in the Bible.

And once again, your attitude goes quite far in showing what you follow and how you follow it. Me pointing it out didn't CREATE it nor justify it's existence. It's simply a matter of fact that you would try and dismiss by blaming your anger and frustration on 'someone else'. And that is about as immature as one can deal with their OWN issues with anger and belligerence: try and shuffle the blame on someone else. Go tell THAT to the 'courts' and they have classes for ya.

Blessings,

MEC

The truth: The Bible says do not worship IDOLS. That is how my Bible reads.

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth.

Also, do me the respect of spelling my name properly.

Finally, my anger and frustration is against the lies you have said about me. Lies lead people away from the Lord. You have consistently lied, saying I worship Icons, which I do not. How about you follow this commandment:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

instead of lying about me breaking this one:

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth.

 

[hybrid]

In a way you are right, but instead of worshiping the image of God, we worship God THROUGH the image. We use images like we use songs and prayers. We do not worship the songs and prayers. Neither do we worship the images. We worship the Person depicted in the image: Christ.

it is quite clear to me that Christ will suffice as the only mediator between god and men.
this is how close men can be to god. you may not find it unscriptural to put another layer of mediator between christ and men since the intention is all the same, the worship of god.

so how may layers can we insert between god and men.
between christ and men and the sub-mediators we put in between like icons of all sorts of things, angels saints and mothers of god?

if our goal is just to be efficient in our spiritual prayer life, this practice will surely fail the efficiency test. lols

this is just a hypothesis, but is it possible that the discomfort of a guilty conscience because of our sins compelled us to put layers of mediators between god and us? in a way people go further away from god without totally abandoning HIm, but we simply cannot stand the holy presence of god because of our guilt or unworthy feeling? im talking about this in general as a human condition, nothing particular or personal.

 

[Imagican]

it is quite clear to me that Christ will suffice as the only mediator between god and men.
this is how close men can be to god. you may not find it unscriptural to put another layer of mediator between christ and men since the intention is all the same, the worship of god.

so how may layers can we insert between god and men.
between christ and men and the sub-mediators we put in between like icons of all sorts of things, angels saints and mothers of god?

if our goal is just to be efficient in our spiritual prayer life, this practice will surely fail the efficiency test. lols

this is just a hypothesis, but is it possible that the discomfort of a guilty conscience because of our sins compelled us to put layers of mediators between god and us? in a way people go further away from god without totally abandoning HIm, but we simply cannot stand the holy presence of god because of our guilt or unworthy feeling? im talking about this in general as a human condition, nothing particular or personal.

Well said, my friend.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The truth: The Bible says do not worship IDOLS. That is how my Bible reads.

This is how my Bible reads:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth.

Also, do me the respect of spelling my name properly.

Sorry, typo.

Finally, my anger and frustration is against the lies you have said about me. Lies lead people away from the Lord. You have consistently lied, saying I worship Icons, which I do not. How about you follow this commandment:

Do you BOW to graven images? Do you pray to 'graven images'?

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

instead of lying about me breaking this one:

Thou shalt not make to thyself an idol, nor likeness of anything, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth.

In what version of the Bible do these words you have offered exist?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[sculleywr]

it is quite clear to me that Christ will suffice as the only mediator between god and men.
this is how close men can be to god. you may not find it unscriptural to put another layer of mediator between christ and men since the intention is all the same, the worship of god.

so how may layers can we insert between god and men.
between christ and men and the sub-mediators we put in between like icons of all sorts of things, angels saints and mothers of god?

if our goal is just to be efficient in our spiritual prayer life, this practice will surely fail the efficiency test. lols

this is just a hypothesis, but is it possible that the discomfort of a guilty conscience because of our sins compelled us to put layers of mediators between god and us? in a way people go further away from god without totally abandoning HIm, but we simply cannot stand the holy presence of god because of our guilt or unworthy feeling? im talking about this in general as a human condition, nothing particular or personal.

Actually, it is not mediators that we create. We do not call for mediators, or lawyers, from among the saints. Rather, we call for intercessors, or witnesses, from the saints. They do not mediate, or make our case. Rather, they present our prayers, as according to the book of Revelations, the prayers of the Saints were offered not by the Saints themselves, but rather the Angels.

The Bible teaches that the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Who is more righteous than one who has finished the race and stands in the presence of God without the nature of sin?

Therefore we do not ask for mediators, for there is one Mediator. But there is a great cloud of witnesses, or intercessors, standing by to witness to God of the needs in our lives.

In Christ Crucified,
Vasily

 

[sculleywr]

In what version of the Bible do these words you have offered exist?

Blessings,

MEC

I will answer point by point starting with:

Do you BOW to graven images? Do you pray to 'graven images'?

No, and no. We bow to Christ, Who is seen THROUGH the Icon as though we look through a window to heaven. (Source: George Patsourakos -- The Orthodox Christian View of Icons as “Windows to Heaven”). We do not believe Christ is IN the Icon, so much as we believe the Icon is a porthole through which we on earth can see the eternal, as though we looked through a glass darkly.

This is how my Bible reads:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

...

In what version of the Bible do these words you have offered exist?

The particular version I used was an English version of the oldest translation of the Old Testament in existence today: The Septuagint. Translated 200 years before Christ and used by Christ and the Apostles as the Scriptures of the Church, as well as by their followers, I believe they considered it rather authoritative. Paul confirmed this in his letter to Timothy, when he followed several quotes of the Septuagint with the phrase that all Scripture is God-breathed (literal translation of the word Theopnuestos).

However, there are many other versions that use that word. Listed below:


New International Version (©1984)
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Never make your own carved idols or statues that represent any creature in the sky, on the earth, or in the water.
World English Bible
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:


Here is an excerpt from Barne's notes on the Bible, a Protestant commentary I found rather surprisingly Orthodox in its stance:

As the first commandment forbids the worship of any false god, seen or unseen, it is here forbidden to worship an image of any sort, whether the figure of a false deity Joshua 23:7 or one in any way symbolic of Yahweh (see Exodus 32:4). The spiritual acts of worship were symbolized in the furniture and ritual of the tabernacle and the altar, and for this end the forms of living things might be employed as in the case of the Cherubim (see Exodus 25:18 note): but the presence of the invisible God was to be marked by no symbol of Himself, but by His words written on stones, preserved in the ark in the holy of holies and covered by the mercy-seat. The ancient Persians and the earliest legislators of Rome also agreed in repudiating images of the Deity.


We, as Orthodox Christians, do not worship the image itself, but the reason for the image. The image CAN exist because God became man, and can therefore be depicted in art. If you had gone back in time with a camera, you could take a picture of Christ. Likewise, a person can also make a picture by paint or mosaic.