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Featured What is a born again christian and can I be one?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Chgz, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Born, singular, of water and the Spirit. If He had said "born of water and born of the Spirit" then the argument would have substance. But He didn't say that, He said "unless one is born of water and the Spirit", "water and the Spirit" describes what the new birth is.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  2. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    As I said...you lost it in translation.

    Your semantics are in error.

    "And" means And, and "again" means Again. Not only one birth, but one of the "flesh" and another [again] of the Spirit - just like it says.

    But, for the sake of argument, what would one "water and Spirit" birth look like?
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ

    answered Jesus amen amen I say to you unless that born of water and spirit not able enter into the kingdom of God

    The conjunction καὶ doesn't render it a second birth, but conjoins water with spirit to describe the birth.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    Your explanation makes the claim that to be born of water (of the flesh) is one and the same as being born of the Spirit.

    If that were true it would not be in the scriptures at all, and not a point to be clarified by Christ. If that were true, Jesus would have told Nicodemus, "You were born of the flesh, did you not know that your were born of the Spirit at the same time?" That's ridiculous.
     
  5. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    You're the only one saying that "water" means "flesh". I'm not saying that, I'm saying the spiritual new birth is "water and the Spirit".

    As such that is something you're inserting into the text.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  6. Press On

    Press On Giving up what I am to become what I will be.

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    Because there IS NO UNITY, period. Man-made religion only.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    As I've been pointing out, though, Jesus refers to the new birth as being of "water and Spirit". He does not say that there is a birth of water and a birth of Spirit; He is not talking about two births but the one new spiritual birth "of water and spirit".

    The assertion that this is a "natural birth" (water) and a "spiritual birth" (spirit) is a modern innovation that almost certainly, as an interpretation, is made specifically in objection to the historic Christian teaching.

    "I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.'

    And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.
    " - St. Justin, First Apology, ch. 61, c. 150 AD

    "And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], "seven times in Jordan." It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Unless a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" - St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment 34, c. 190 AD

    "For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament; since it is written, 'Unless a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' For we find also, in the Acts of the Apostles, that this is maintained by the apostles, and kept in the truth of the saving faith, so that when, in the house of Cornelius the centurion, the Holy Ghost had descended upon the Gentiles who were there, fervent in the warmth of their faith, and believing in the Lord with their whole heart; and when, filled with the Spirit, they blessed God in various tongues, still none the less the blessed Apostle Peter, mindful of the divine precept and the Gospel, commanded that those same men should be baptized who had already been filled with the Holy Spirit, that nothing might seem to be neglected to the observance by the apostolic instruction in all things of the law of the divine precept and Gospel." - Cyprian of Carthage, Letter 71.1, c. 250 AD

    etc.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  8. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    And...finish your claim then. What does "water and Spirit [combined] birth look like? If you are clear on it...explain it.
     
  9. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    According to the consistent teaching of the Christian Church over the last two thousand years, baptism.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  10. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    Men baptize with water...for "repentance"...not rebirth:

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    That's John's baptism. I'm talking about Christian baptism. Acts 19:1-7

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    Acts 19:1-7 about the Holy Spirit (which came upon them when Paul laid hands on them. It barely touches on water baptism, and only as it pertains to receiving the Holy Spirit.

    But YOU have made a big deal - not of being "baptized" in water - but of being "born again" of "water" AND the Spirit.

    Now...(again, I say)...explain yourself, explain your claim of being born again of water AND the Spirit.
     
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    In Acts 19 Paul comes across some disciples of John the Baptist who had only received John's baptism of repentance (in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah), Paul then teaches them on the fact that Jesus is the one John pointed to, and then administered Christian baptism, then laid hands on them.

    Christian baptism isn't a "baptism of repentance" as John the Baptist had, it is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), union with Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6:2-10), being clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), for regeneration (Titus 3:5), etc.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  14. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    That is all good...but you are/were making too much out of the "water" part of what is written. There is nothing holy about the waters below, only the waters above (meaning the spirit of God). Water baptism is purely symbolic, many have received the Holy Spirit with out it. I am one.
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Not a biblical statement.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    1 Peter 3:20-22
    20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
     
  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Note that it says that baptism now saves us. It's not the removal of dirt from the body like some ordinary bath, it is the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Nothing here about some symbolic-only baptism. Just the opposite, this passage is quite explicit about the meaning, nature, and efficacy of baptism.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  18. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    Peter's explanation does not take away "antitype" (symbolism) from water baptism, but declares it. And although you continue to try, you cannot remove it.
     
  19. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The symbolism is in the type (the waters of the flood, the ark), not the antitype. The symbolism of the type points to the reality and substance of the antitype.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  20. ScottA

    ScottA Author: Walking Like Einstein Supporter

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    The meaning of the word "antitype" is "symbol" and Peter makes it clear he is not talking about the flood and ark (then), but [now].

    But if you are not convinced, here it is again...with no mention of water, but in fact of "repentance" and the "Holy Spirit" [only], leaving water baptism to the past as John's baptism:

    And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said,‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

    18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
    Acts 11:15-18
     
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