What if we have ALL been 'duped'?

[Hillsage]

Not my words but the Bible: Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the least of men.

So you're helping me prove that 'at the fall "the most High giveth" it to 'our adversary', which apparently wasn't Adam since he had the authority it to begin with. Thanks for the help concerning my POV.

What do you think your Satan/devil/dragon/serpent is made from and when or where did it come from?

SPIRIT originally and where did he come from;

GEN 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Who gave him permission to enter the garden? Why you quoted the authority in the verse above. Good job.

If you claim he is not substance then what in the world do you think your Satan/devil/dragon/serpent is made from and when or where did it/he/she come from and God said man has dominion over everything?

Like I said I believe the bible and not your 'men source' what ever that is. He and his minions are 'spirits'.

2CO 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

And all spirits are eternal and can't be killed, destroyed or anything else you can do to something "full of marrow". Thanks for the definition help there too BTW.

Gen_1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

CREEPING/remes THING you say;

7431 remes: a reptile or any other rapidly moving animal.

Yep, spiritually speaking the serpent was a reptile/remes.

And they are the same kind of spirits that we now have spiritual authority over in the NT.

LUK 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.

Do you know the difference in spiritual authority concerning serpents and scorpions in this verse above and how they are able to affect us? I say that hoping that you aren't a 'rattle snake handling' interpreter of this verse. That would certainly be a 'literal' application.

JOB 12:3 But I have understanding as well as you; I amnot inferior to you. Who does not know such things as these?

 

[he-man]

So you're helping me prove that 'at the fall "the most High giveth" it to 'our adversary', which apparently wasn't Adam since he had the authority it to begin with. Thanks for the help concerning my POV.
SPIRIT originally and where did he come from;

Make up your mind is it a spirit or a man?
the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the least of men.

GEN 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

And what happened to the serpent? Crawling around on the ground and busy eating dust does not sound like anything powerful to me!

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

I like the story of Balaam better it plainly says the adversary was an ANGEL and by the way isn't it odd that the snake and donkey both were speaking because GOD OPENED their mouth!
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him.

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Like I said I believe the bible and not your 'men source' what ever that is. He and his minions are 'spirits'. 2CO 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

There is only ONE Spirit
Eph 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

And all spirits are eternal and can't be killed, destroyed or anything else you can do to something "full of marrow". Thanks for the definition help there too BTW.

Only God has immortality

LUK 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.
Do you know the difference in spiritual authority concerning serpents and scorpions in this verse above and how they are able to affect us? I say that hoping that you aren't a 'rattle snake handling' interpreter of this verse. That would certainly be a 'literal' application.

Who is the Serpent?
שׂרף, sārāph , apparently from שׂרף , sāraph , "to burn," is used of the fiery serpents of the wilderness. In Numbers 21:8 , it occurs in the singular: "Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard." In Numbers 21:6 we have שׂרף הנּחשׁים , ha -neḥāshım, "fiery serpents"; in Deuteronomy 8:15 the same in the singular: שׂרף נחשׁ , nāḥāsh sārāph , also translated "fiery serpents"; in Isaiah 14:29; Isaiah 30:6 we have מעופף שׂרף , sārāph me‛ōphēph , "fiery flying serpent."

Egyptians and Phoenicians, adored idol gods in the form of serpents as the emblems of health and immortality. [JFB]
2KI 18:4 H5175 from H5172 The commonest Hebrew word is נחשׁ , nāḥāsh , which occurs 31 times and seems to be a generic word for enchanter/serpent.

Dan was even called a serpent: Ge 49:17 "Dan shall be a serpent ( nāḥāsh ) in the way, ... that biteth the horse's heels"

While not always clearly indicating a venomous serpent, but of the wicked such as
Ps 140:3 They have sharpened their tongue like a serpent; vipers' venom is under their lips. Selah
4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to make my steps slip. ( nāḥāsh );

Serpents are as wicked charmers as in Psa 58:3 The wicked go astray from the womb; they err as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder which stoppeth her ear;
5 Which doth not hearken to the voice of enchanters, skillful charmer of charms.;
Ecc 10:11 If the serpent bite before enchantment, then there is no advantage to a master of tongues.;

God says he will send serpents, who are the charmers or soothsayers he calls wicked people, to bite you.
Jer 8:17 For behold, I will send serpents among you, vipers for which there is no charm; and they will bite you, says Jehovah.

The Roman writer Apuleius recorded aspects of the cult of Isis in the 2nd century CE, including the Navigium Isidis, in his novel The Golden Ass. The protagonist Lucius prays to Isis as Regina Caeli, "Queen of Heaven":
Plutarch: Isis and Osiris". Loeb Classical Library.

 

[Hillsage]

Make up your mind is it a spirit or a man?

You don't answer my question, but then want me to answer yours! That doesn't work if you want to know the truth. That is only a tactic 'to win' an argument of men.

the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the least of men. And what happened to the serpent?

How in the world do you think the devil rules in the kingdom of men??? Only through his influence of men.

Crawling around on the ground and busy eating dust does not sound like anything powerful to me!

That's because you also never answered my question concerning the SPIRITUAL significance of what scorpions/serpents can do. You apparently do not know that in the spiritual realm scorpions have the authority to torture man, serpents (vipers/pythons) have the authority to kill man.

In the garden what was man made of? "DUST" The scorpion tortures that dust/body (headaches/ulcers). Whereas a viper serpent can kill with their venomous lies (as in the Garden). Not immediately, the venom takes time, but its end is physical death. Adam bought the lie, and bought a death sentence for the dust part of man, that the body is. Spirit death in the garden was an orthodox dupe IMO.

If you'd ever been in a deliverance session, as I was, when the person is seemingly thrown from their chair to the floor after being lightly touched, then you too would witness where 'spiritual' serpents feel most comfortable....crawling on the ground/floor in a 'dust' house. But such things aren't spelled out 'in the bible'. They need spiritual discernment to see. I was taught so much more 'that time' by the Spirit, it was truly a wondrous time for revealed truth in my walk.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Indeed the last enemy to be destroyed(katargeo to be (render) entirely idle) is death. But until that time the power to kill belongs to the serpents. Still eating us to death.

There is only ONE Spirit
Eph 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Context brother, context. This verse (and 5) is referring to one thing and that is the 'body of Jesus' the 'spirit of Christ', none of it is talking about our body or our spirit.

 

[he-man]

That's because you also never answered my question concerning the SPIRITUAL significance of what scorpions/serpents can do. You apparently do not know that in the spiritual realm scorpions have the authority to torture man, serpents (vipers/pythons) have the authority to kill man.

I like the story of Balaam better it plainly says the adversary was an ANGEL and by the way isn't it odd that the snake and donkey both were speaking because GOD OPENED their mouth!

Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him.

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

If you'd ever been in a deliverance session, as I was, when the person is seemingly thrown from their chair to the floor after being lightly touched, then you too would witness where 'spiritual' serpents feel most comfortable....crawling on the ground/floor in a 'dust' house. But such things aren't spelled out 'in the bible'. They need spiritual discernment to see. I was taught so much more 'that time' by the Spirit, it was truly a wondrous time for revealed truth in my walk.

Yes, I have seen people under the influence of epilepsy and Hypnosis, in a trance like state, who have been duped into believing it is something spiritual in nature, but it is only auto hypnosis, sef induced by training from men, not from God.

Among other hypotheses are a handful of neurological conditions that can cause complex hallucinations in otherwise sane and healthy people, such as temporal lobe epilepsy.

Indeed the last enemy to be destroyed(katargeo to be (render) entirely idle) is death. But until that time the power to kill belongs to the serpents. Still eating us to death.

Who is the Serpent?
שׂרף, sārāph , apparently from שׂרף , sāraph , "to burn," is used of the fiery serpents of the wilderness. In Numbers 21:8 , it occurs in the singular: "Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard." In Numbers 21:6 we have שׂרף הנּחשׁים , ha -neḥāshım, "fiery serpents"; in Deuteronomy 8:15 the same in the singular: שׂרף נחשׁ , nāḥāsh sārāph , also translated "fiery serpents"; in Isaiah 14:29; Isaiah 30:6 we have מעופף שׂרף , sārāph me‛ōphēph , "fiery flying serpent."

Egyptians and Phoenicians, adored idol gods in the form of serpents as the emblems of health and immortality. [JFB]
2KI 18:4 H5175 from H5172 The commonest Hebrew word is נחשׁ , nāḥāsh , which occurs 31 times and seems to be a generic word for enchanter/serpent.

Dan was even called a serpent: Ge 49:17 "Dan shall be a serpent ( nāḥāsh ) in the way, ... that biteth the horse's heels"

While not always clearly indicating a venomous serpent, but of the wicked such as
Ps 140:3 They have sharpened their tongue like a serpent; vipers' venom is under their lips. Selah
4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to make my steps slip. ( nāḥāsh );

Serpents are as wicked charmers as in Psa 58:3 The wicked go astray from the womb; they err as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder which stoppeth her ear;
5 Which doth not hearken to the voice of enchanters, skillful charmer of charms.;
Ecc 10:11 If the serpent bite before enchantment, then there is no advantage to a master of tongues.;

God says he will send serpents, who are the charmers or soothsayers he calls wicked people, to bite you.
Jer 8:17 For behold, I will send serpents among you, vipers for which there is no charm; and they will bite you, says Jehovah.

The Roman writer Apuleius recorded aspects of the cult of Isis in the 2nd century CE, including the Navigium Isidis, in his novel The Golden Ass. The protagonist Lucius prays to Isis as Regina Caeli, "Queen of Heaven":
Plutarch: Isis and Osiris". Loeb Classical Library.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, I have seen people under the influence of epilepsy and Hypnosis, in a trance like state, who have been duped into believing it is something spiritual in nature, but it is only auto hypnosis, sef induced by training from men, not from God.

As have I he-man, as have I. But unlike you I have also seen the spiritual reality unexplained by those who've also seen. Something you obviously have not, just as I've suspected for a while. Oh let me be truthful, from the beginning. We have our differences and it will take a supernatural one to change your theology. Maybe that's in the calling of God for you, and maybe it is not. I will leave those things in his hands.

Among other hypotheses are a handful of neurological conditions that can cause complex hallucinations in otherwise sane and healthy people, such as temporal lobe epilepsy.

You remind me of the patient who came to me one time and praised god for giving me the spiritual gift of healing. I laughed in her fundamental Baptist face....lovingly mind you. She been a patient for a long time. I then went on to tell her that the 'soulish talent' that God gave me to study and get the same doctorate degree as a 'heathen' peer two doors down from me, had nothing to do with the 'spiritual'. The other doc actually left his wife and two kids to run off with his secretary. I assure you there is a difference between 'soulish talents' and 'spiritual gifts'. She did hear what I was saying, better than you apparently. She even asked me to mentor her, which I agreed to do. It didn't last long though. Sometimes you just can't go to the same places others have gone. Because it will require you to do things you never believed in before. Such is our walk in the Sspirit.

I'm tired of this he-man, even though you whittled it down to one page, which I still give thanks for. Maybe some other time. Be blessed.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I admit it. I've been douped.

 

[Josephus]

Hillsage and he-man. Can I share a bit of Jewish insight?

The numerical Hebrew value for nachash is equal to the numerical value for mashiach.

Nachash is also equal to the numerical value of yetzer hara (the evil inclination).

So as the serpent was lifted up...so must the Son of Man be lifted up.

It is Mashiach (Messiah/Christ) that defeats the Serpent and the evil inclination. That is why their numerical values are equivalent, and thus interchangeable in Jesus's application of the lifting of the copper serpent in the wilderness. The serpent/nachash thus is anti messiah. Moses, by way of numerical subtlety was prophesying the work of mashiach.

That the very pole the serpent was put on was Aaron's staff that blossomed almond flowers (a branch from the Tree of Life) and later was implanted by King David as he fled Absalom, on the Mount of Olives and became a tree that still held the serpent that King Hezekiah destroyed because people were worshipping it, is interesting. That Jesus was hung from the remaing tree via being crucified to a cedar crossbeam (crucified at golgotha and then hung from the tree on the Mt of Olives) in view of the Holy of Holies is even more interesting.

But according to the OP we are all duped (without considering the implication that he may be duped about everyone bring duped) so there is no point in trying to explain anything.

 

[he-man]

Nachash is also equal to the numerical value of yetzer hara (the evil inclination).

The yetzer hara is not a demonic force, but rather man's misuse of things the physical body needs to survive.
The Jewish religion: a companion - p443 Louis Jacobs - 1995

<&#1497;&#1510;&#1512; &#1492;&#1512;&#1506;> to the inclination to do evil, by violating the will of God.

The yetzer hara is often presented as a personification of evil distinct from the supernatural Satan of traditional Christianity and Islam. This tendency to demythologize Satan is found in Bava Batra and other rabbinical works, and is also found in some Enlightenment Christian writers, such as in the religious writings of Isaac Newton.
Ancient Jewish magic: a history 2008, Bohak G.
Newton and Newtonianism: new studies 174 James E. Force, Sarah Hutton - 2004

The term is drawn from the phrase "the imagination of the heart of man [is] evil" (Hebrew: &#1497;&#1461;&#1510;&#1462;&#1512; &#1500;&#1461;&#1489; &#1492;&#1464;&#1488;&#1464;&#1491;&#1464;&#1501; &#1512;&#1463;&#1506;, yetzer lev-ha-adam ra), which occurs twice in the Hebrew Bible, at Genesis 6:5 and 8:21

Traditionally, a person's indulgence of either the good or evil impulse is seen as a matter of free choice..and he is not compelled toward either of them. He has the power of choice and is able to choose either side knowingly and willingly..
Way of God Moshe &#7716;ayyim Luzzatto - 1998

 

[Hillsage]

But according to the OP we are all duped (without considering the implication that he may be duped about everyone bring duped) so there is no point in trying to explain anything.

Thanks for the input Josephus. Don't know if it would have helped any, but you could have shared that insight a bit earlier. I'd have quit sooner, apparently he-man can not.

 

[he-man]

Thanks for the input Josephus. Don't know if it would have helped any, but you could have shared that insight a bit earlier. I'd have quit sooner, apparently he-man can not.

The yetzer hara is not a demonic force, but rather man's misuse of things the physical body needs to survive.
The Jewish religion: a companion - p443 Louis Jacobs - 1995

<&#1497;&#1510;&#1512; &#1492;&#1512;&#1506;> to the inclination to do evil, by violating the will of God.

The yetzer hara is often presented as a personification of evil distinct from the supernatural Satan of traditional Christianity and Islam. This tendency to demythologize Satan is found in Bava Batra and other rabbinical works, and is also found in some Enlightenment Christian writers, such as in the religious writings of Isaac Newton.
Ancient Jewish magic: a history 2008, Bohak G.
Newton and Newtonianism: new studies 174 James E. Force, Sarah Hutton - 2004

The term is drawn from the phrase "the imagination of the heart of man [is] evil" (Hebrew: &#1497;&#1461;&#1510;&#1462;&#1512; &#1500;&#1461;&#1489; &#1492;&#1464;&#1488;&#1464;&#1491;&#1464;&#1501; &#1512;&#1463;&#1506;, yetzer lev-ha-adam ra), which occurs twice in the Hebrew Bible, at Genesis 6:5 and 8:21

Traditionally, a person's indulgence of either the good or evil impulse is seen as a matter of free choice..and he is not compelled toward either of them. He has the power of choice and is able to choose either side knowingly and willingly..
Way of God Moshe &#7716;ayyim Luzzatto - 1998

 

[Imagican]

Hillsage and he-man. Can I share a bit of Jewish insight?

The numerical Hebrew value for nachash is equal to the numerical value for mashiach.

Nachash is also equal to the numerical value of yetzer hara (the evil inclination).

So as the serpent was lifted up...so must the Son of Man be lifted up.

It is Mashiach (Messiah/Christ) that defeats the Serpent and the evil inclination. That is why their numerical values are equivalent, and thus interchangeable in Jesus's application of the lifting of the copper serpent in the wilderness. The serpent/nachash thus is anti messiah. Moses, by way of numerical subtlety was prophesying the work of mashiach.

That the very pole the serpent was put on was Aaron's staff that blossomed almond flowers (a branch from the Tree of Life) and later was implanted by King David as he fled Absalom, on the Mount of Olives and became a tree that still held the serpent that King Hezekiah destroyed because people were worshipping it, is interesting. That Jesus was hung from the remaing tree via being crucified to a cedar crossbeam (crucified at golgotha and then hung from the tree on the Mt of Olives) in view of the Holy of Holies is even more interesting.

But according to the OP we are all duped (without considering the implication that he may be duped about everyone bring duped) so there is no point in trying to explain anything.

And that is the MANNER in which MOST deal with reality. When it is something that they are more uncomfortable dealing with, they simply interject sarcasm instead of anything of substance.

You know, like saying, "Well, if you're not going to listen anyway, why should I respond?" A very WEAK way of opting OUT of something substantial. But trust me, I DO understand. If I wanted to live in a state of denial, I would find a way to JOKE my way out of facing the TRUTH. Who wants to face reality if it HURTS? Better to just 'take a pill' and learn to live in denial.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Josephus]

MEC, Imagican,

Your OP premise is not logical. In fact, it's an argument from relativism, which is logically proven false. You surmise we are all duped, but this can not stand because it assumes that one holding to that statement is not duped. It's a contradicting statement. Much like saying "there is no such thing as truth." Oh really? Is that true? (That counter question usually drives out the relativism of relativists, or drives them nuts.)

So then when you say "we are all duped," I say "and you're not?" If you say you are not duped when making this statement, then your statement clauses of "we" and "all" is false, rendering the entire statement false, since those clauses regressively include you and your statement. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Your premise is illogical and can not exist in reality. Else you have an unresolvable paradox. Therefore logic alone disproves your premise that "all are duped." Such a statement can not reasonably stand.

Now if you want to discuss the merits of what I believe, on the basis of reason, as G-d himself encourages us to discover the truth when he says "come let us reason together," then feel free to hit me up in a PM or post here in this thread.

 

[he-man]

And that is the MANNER in which MOST deal with reality. Blessings, MEC

Real?

 

[Imagican]

MEC, Imagican,

Your OP premise is not logical. In fact, it's an argument from relativism, which is logically proven false. You surmise we are all duped, but this can not stand because it assumes that one holding to that statement is not duped. It's a contradicting statement. Much like saying "there is no such thing as truth." Oh really? Is that true? (That counter question usually drives out the relativism of relativists, or drives them nuts.)

oh contraire

I have most CERTAIN included MYSELF in everything I have offered. If you have failed to recognize this, let me off it CLEARLY: what if WE have ALL been duped?

I DO believe that the word WE includes MYSELF when it is "I" that makes the statement. How you chose to confuse yourself over this issue is confusing to ME.

And NO, my premiss is: what if there IS 'a' TRUTH. Not, what if there is NO truth. BIG difference.

So then when you say "we are all duped," I say "and you're not?" If you say you are not duped when making this statement, then your statement clauses of "we" and "all" is false, rendering the entire statement false, since those clauses regressively include you and your statement. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Once again, you have CREATED what you WANT to hear instead of listening to what I have ACTUALLY offered. And this isn't a discussion of 'cakes' or 'eating'. It's a question of whether there is ANY single professor that is TRULY following what they PROFESS to be following?

Your premise is illogical and can not exist in reality. Else you have an unresolvable paradox. Therefore logic alone disproves your premise that "all are duped." Such a statement can not reasonably stand.

Well then, since you seem to be UTTERLY confused as to what I have offered, let me offer it in a manner you CANNOT confuse: What if Satan has led ALL of us to believe that HE is God? And in that respect, what if ALL of us have been DUPED by Satan into believing and following HIM instead of God.

Now, what is SO illogical about THAT? No unsolvable paradox. PLAIN and SIMPLE ENGLISH. What if, through the 'churches' and the LUSTS in our hearts, we have chosen to become followers of Satan in the GUISE of God and most DON'T even KNOW IT?

It would certainly explain the total absence of POWER in the 'churches' and in the very lives of those PROFESSING to be followers. It would certainly explain why NO TWO followers believe in the SAME things. It would certainly explain why everyone that I encounter that CLAIMS to be a 'Christian', (follower of Christ), lives LITTLE differently than the REST of this 'world'. It would explain why there are SO MANY 'Christians' on medication for depression. So many 'Christian' DRUG addicts, homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, liars, cheaters, murderers and every other sort of perversion that could be imagined.

Now if you want to discuss the merits of what I believe, on the basis of reason, as G-d himself encourages us to discover the truth when he says "come let us reason together," then feel free to hit me up in a PM or post here in this thread.

Oh, so MY reason is illogical. But YOUR reason is much more desirable to follow? Hmmmmm..................You sound like someone that has been to 'school' and has chosen to emulate your teachers.

No thanks. You have already offered me about as much of YOUR reasoning ability that I am willing to bear. For when one starts speaking of IMPOSSIBILITIES, they remind me of men of limited insight or even ABILITY to see beyond the noses on their very faces.

I have NEVER found the Bible teachings that direct us to follow our OWN reason. As a matter of FACT, the Bible teaches us that the reasonings of men are in utter conflict with the TRUTH of God. It was Eve's REASONING that led to our present predicament. For if she had merely followed INSTRUCTIONS without TRYING to reason it out on her own, (with a bit of influence of course), she would NEVER have done what she did.

So your talk of logic and reason doesn't really impress me much. For there is little logic or reason in the TRUTH when inspected by THOSE OF 'THIS WORLD'. Most LOGICAL or REASONABLE individuals reject the very IDEA of God or RIGHTEOUSNESS according to the Bible.

Better yet, why don't you tell us what YOU think about the TRUTH and then let US decide whether you've been DUPED or not according to the Bible.

I KNOW what I KNOW so far as God and His Son are concerned. What I am forced to question is why others don't know the SAME THING? If there is but ONE God and ONE begotten OF God, how can there be MORE than ONE understanding of EXACTLY WHO the Father and Son ARE?

Let us start with this ONE question: Do you believe in 'trinity'? Your answer to THAT will be ENOUGH for me to determine that you have most certainly been DUPED, (in MY opinion, of course). Along with the hundreds of millions that also believe in 'trinity'.

So that takes care of the MAJORITY of those professing to be followers. A belief in a 'triune god' is REALLY a belief in THREE gods. While those that so believe are plenty capable of talking AROUND the truth in this 'so called mystery', the TRUTH is: one plus one plus one equals THREE.

Since you are the LOGICAL one, explain to a child that one plus one plus one equals ONE. Give them THREE apples and TELL THEM to make them ONE.

So here we have ONE SINGLE 'false creation of men' that has made it possible for hundreds of millions of people to be DUPED. Now, how many OTHER 'creations' JUST LIKE 'trinity' have MEN created and introduced into the 'churches'?

No, even logic clearly points out that if NO TWO people are capable of coming to the SAME understanding, the odds are, not a ONE of them is correct. But IF there IS ONE, there is ONLY ONE and ALL the rest are filled with confusion.

OSAS, preterism, Calvanism, ALL are saved, universalism, Christian Science, Mormonism, heck the list is SO extensive that it would probably take a BOOK to contain ALL the 'creations of men' that have been interjected into 'Christianity'. And your own LOGIC would dictate that they cannot ALL be CORRECT.

Then we boil it down to it's essence. WHICH ONE? Which SINGLE group of believers are following what GOD has offered WITHOUT the intervention of MAN MADE doctrine? And I offer this as a LEGITIMATE question directed AT YOU. You tell us, WHICH denomination exists that follows ONLY what God has offered through prophet, Son and apostles and Holy Spirit, AS it has been offered? Heck, point out TWO PEOPLE and I'll be satisfied.

There was a 'time' when ALL men believed the Earth to be FLAT. Then, at some point, ONE MAN came along and said that it was ROUND.

And we have TWO examples IN THE BIBLE, where ONLY ONE man was SAVED because ONLY ONE man was considered by God to be RIGHTEOUS.

Noah, (you can't count the men in his family for they were saved for NOAH'S sake), and Lot. Out of TWO cities, only ONE man was found to be RIGHTEOUS. And I believe it's a SAFE assumption to equate righteousness with TRUTH in the gist of this conversation. Twice, the Bible indicates that out of the masses, ONLY ONE MAN was found to be following in TRUTH.

It is MY opinion that men have most likely found themselves in an even WORSE place than at the time of Noah. For we have been informed that the NEXT time God destroys the wicked, it will be the whole WORLD including the planet itself. If we take past examples and apply them to the future, God has NEVER destroyed the RIGHTEOUS along with the wicked. So it's pretty OBVIOUS that God is NOT going to destroy a WORLD full of RIGHTEOUS people.

So how many? How MANY do YOU suppose are following in TRUTH? For we are INSTRUCTED that we MUST follow in TRUTH and Spirit. How MANY are presently following in TRUTH? ALL I would ask is that you SHOW ME TWO. Show me TWO people who's beliefs and practices are IN THE TRUTH. Two people who BELIEVE in the same thing and PRACTICE IT. Bet you CAN'T. For in my searches for over twenty years, I have YET to find TWO. And in most cases, I can't even find two that even CLOSE to 'the same' in their beliefs and practices.

How can that BE? If all profess to be following the SAME truth, how can EACH be believing in and following DIFFERENTLY? That just AIN'T 'logical', now is it?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

And that is the MANNER in which MOST deal with reality. Blessings, MEC

Real? man: you must mean the imagination of the heart
The yetzer hara is not a demonic force, but rather man's misuse of things the physical body needs to survive.
The Jewish religion: a companion - p443 Louis Jacobs - 1995

<&#1497;&#1510;&#1512; &#1492;&#1512;&#1506;> to the inclination to do evil, by violating the will of God.

The yetzer hara is often presented as a personification of evil distinct from the supernatural Satan of traditional Christianity and Islam. This tendency to demythologize Satan is found in Bava Batra and other rabbinical works, and is also found in some Enlightenment Christian writers, such as in the religious writings of Isaac Newton.
Ancient Jewish magic: a history 2008, Bohak G.
Newton and Newtonianism: new studies 174 James E. Force, Sarah Hutton - 2004

The term is drawn from the phrase "the imagination of the heart of man [is] evil" (Hebrew: &#1497;&#1461;&#1510;&#1462;&#1512; &#1500;&#1461;&#1489; &#1492;&#1464;&#1488;&#1464;&#1491;&#1464;&#1501; &#1512;&#1463;&#1506;, yetzer lev-ha-adam ra), which occurs twice in the Hebrew Bible, at Genesis 6:5 and 8:21

Traditionally, a person's indulgence of either the good or evil impulse is seen as a matter of free choice..and he is not compelled toward either of them. He has the power of choice and is able to choose either side knowingly and willingly..
Way of God Moshe &#7716;ayyim Luzzatto - 1998

 

[Norah63]

To measure ourselves by ourselves we would consider ourselves to be wise.
However we look into the truth and yearn for all to see a clear reflection, even if I cant quite see it perfect myself. The 'what if ', of the thread should just urge us all to seek more earnestly.
Not make excuses for our imperfections. Grace covers a multitude of sins, yet as we believe, we must will to live. Without the dreaded compitition I might add.

 

[he-man]

To measure ourselves by ourselves we would consider ourselves to be wise.
However we look into the truth and yearn for all to see a clear reflection, even if I cant quite see it perfect myself. The 'what if ', of the thread should just urge us all to seek more earnestly.
Not make excuses for our imperfections. Grace covers a multitude of sins, yet as we believe, we must will to live. Without the dreaded compitition I might add.

You are Off Topic:
The yetzer hara is often presented as a personification of evil distinct from the supernatural Satan of traditional Christianity and Islam. This tendency to demythologize Satan is found in Bava Batra and other rabbinical works, and is also found in some Enlightenment Christian writers, such as in the religious writings of Isaac Newton.
Ancient Jewish magic: a history 2008, Bohak G.
Newton and Newtonianism: new studies 174 James E. Force, Sarah Hutton - 2004

 

[Norah63]

To each his own he-man.

 

[Imagican]

To measure ourselves by ourselves we would consider ourselves to be wise.
However we look into the truth and yearn for all to see a clear reflection, even if I cant quite see it perfect myself. The 'what if ', of the thread should just urge us all to seek more earnestly.
Not make excuses for our imperfections. Grace covers a multitude of sins, yet as we believe, we must will to live. Without the dreaded compitition I might add.

I AGREE Norah.

I don't offer what I offer in the hopes of DISCOURAGING people. I offer it in the HOPES of ENCOURAGING those that profess to be follows TO FOLLOW in TRUTH.

But I can't help but SEE what I SEE. I would LIKE to see things DIFFERENTLY. But not to the point that I'm going to MAKE UP what I WANT to see instead of facing the TRUTH.

I love you and everyone else here. I hope that I NEVER do ANY harm. But I also KNOW that more often than not, when we TRY to help others they often SEE it as harm. For whenever something 'gets in the way' of what one WANTS to do, it is often viewed as detrimental even when it is offered for their benefit.

How man children LIKE instruction or correction or rules? I haven't met one YET. And I have met few adults either.

But I feel that to profess to BE a believer REQUIRES that one DO as they SAY their BELIEVE. And that has become something quite rare in our day. Maybe even non existent.

Even among those LEADING the 'churches', I more often witness MEN, (or even women now days), that are NO DIFFERENT than the REST OF THIS WORLD except for their VOCABULARY. They TALK a good game, but when their actual LIVES are examined, they HATE like EVERYONE ELSE. They LOVE MONEY like everyone else, (some even MORE than their congregation for just about every day I read news of pastors STEALING money FROM the congregations). They enjoy PLEASURE as much or more than the those that they live among. Some drink and smoke behind closed doors. Gamble and oh my, the adultery that we witness between our 'church leaders' and the congregation......................oh my. Child molestation among many of the 'church leaders'.

My point is THIS: if the 'church LEADERS' are in such a state of degradation, where does that leave the CONGREGATION. In other words, if the LEADERS are DEMON possessed, what TRUTH could they possibly be passing on to the congregation? For you don't TRULY believe that the Holy Spirit is going to dwell in a HOUSE full of demons DO YOU?

I measure MYSELF in TRUTH. And it is QUITE PAINFUL. But I also instructed to measure OTHERS as well ACCORDING to TRUTH. Otherwise I would have NO MEANS to defend myself against the WILES of the Devil.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

he-man,

You should KNOW by now that you cannot 'trick me'.

For I am well aware of the Devil and have intimate knowledge of many of his wiles. I have PERSONALLY witnessed MANY of his demons and have the Bible to BACK UP what I have witnessed. JESUS cast out DEMONS. His apostles CAST OUT DEMONS. And the demons are described to us as the angels that FELL with Satan. And as far as we know, those that have DIED in Satan's service may well end up BEING demons as well. We simply don't KNOW the answer to that yet.

But what we DO KNOW according to the Bible is that DEMONS exist. And that there have been individuals possessed by THOUSANDS of individual DEMONS. Mary was delivered of SEVEN demons. SEVEN DEMONS Christ cast out of Mary.

But to believe in what you continually offer would be to decide that ALL that is offered in the Bible concerning Satan and his demons was MADE UP by the Catholic Church. I personally CANNOT believe that for the simple fact that I have witnessed the presence of demons MYSELF. It is NOT just 'the words in the Bible' that have led me to my beliefs. It is my EXPERIENCE ALONG WITH the words IN THE BIBLE that has led to my understanding.

So you CANNOT convince me of something different than what I KNOW to be the TRUTH. IMPOSSIBLE.

But what I DO KNOW that CAN HAPPEN, you CAN come to a different understanding than the path you are traveling. And in my opinion, ALL you NEED to DO is open your eyes. The evil that is ALL AROUND YOU is there by INFLUENCE. Yes, it BECOMES a part of the hearts of men when they ENTERTAIN demons. But the EVIL is NOT created BY one's heart, it BECOMES a part of one's heart through INFLUENCE. We don't think up evil that is NOT a part of us, we ALLOW the evil we ENTERTAIN to become a part of us. The EVIL comes from OUTSIDE and infiltrates IN. It is NOT something inherent as you insist that leaks OUT.

We are BORN in the FLESH. But that flesh is INNOCENT until we become able to CHOOSE what we follow. We ARE 'born INTO sin'. But we do NOT BECOME sinners UNTIL we CHOOSE to follow that which is contrary to the image in which we were created. And due to the influence ALL around us, it doesn't take long till that innocent flesh is influenced to DISOBEY the nature of the image in which we were created. But the influence is NOT inherent. It is an influence FROM WITHOUT, not from within. We do NOT 'create evil' We SUBMIT to it's influence and only THEN does it become a PART of us. A baby is NOT born to MURDER or RAPE or STEAL. A baby is BORN in the IMAGE of the Creator and it takes INFLUENCE in order to get that baby to BECOME disobedient.

Otherwise, how do you explain that some KILL and others DON'T? or that SOME are obsessed THIEVES and others NOT? You can't. If each of us is born with evil IN our hearts, we would ALL be performing the SAME EVIL. That simply isn't the case.

But I can offer THIS: each of us is TEMPTED to commit the SAME SINS. Some OVERCOME that temptation and others ENTERTAIN IT. The ones that entertain it are the ones that end up submitting themselves TO the temptation. So it is NOT something that comes FROM our hearts or we could ALL be murderers. ALL be obsessive thieves and fornicators and adulterers. Since we are NOT, the obviousness to ME is that YOU are WRONG. For if you were RIGHT, I would have killed a BUNCH of people.

Blessings,

MEC