What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

Root of Jesse

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Doesn't seem to go with him in all humility asking to be crucified upside down.
Mother Theresa was very humble, and there's many statues of her. I don't think it depends on the humility of the subject.
Also, while I believe Peter was crucified upside down, it is a legend.
 
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Regarding not favoring translations, what do you mean? For example, if someone translated something inaccurately, according to 'the authority' (which the Catholic Church was, at the time) what should they do, let it continue to be translated inaccurately? Or publicly demand that the translation is wrong and needs to be changed? FWIW, the authority was the only one who could reserve the right to translate the Bible. Why? It was the authority, according to Christ.

That raises a very interesting question. In China today there are two translations of the Bible in use. The older the two is the Union Bible and is valued among the older generation of Christians. However both translations are really quite flawed in certain passages. The Department of Religion in the People's Republic of China endorses both and prints both for sale to Christians. However, it is exceedingly unlikely there will be another translation. Many Christians there who are bilungual (English is one of the two official languages in China which are taught in the schools) are perplexed with the English translations, which are really quite uniform, but contrast significantly with the Chinese translations.

Complicating matters, of course, is that the Department of Religion trains the clergy of all Christian denominations, including the Catholic Church (officially the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association).
 
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Ceallaigh

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Well, he did allow his name to be changed to "Rock". I don't know what it is with protestants and titles. And it's not a matter of what he allows himself to be called. The people of Rome first called the pope the pope. It wasn't something the man said "You should call me pope from now on."

That's a far cry from being called "Holy Father".
 
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Root of Jesse

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That's a far cry from being called "Holy Father".
Totally missing what I said about the people calling him "Holy Father", which is different from him saying "You shall call me Holy Father."
 
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Ceallaigh

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Totally missing what I said about the people calling him "Holy Father", which is different from him saying "You shall call me Holy Father."

Agreed. My point is making Peter and his successors second to God and calling them "Holy Father" etc, is something the RCC invented somewhere down the line.
 
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Ligurian

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Another poster once asked: What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

I agree. What if John 6 means exactly what it says? What if Matthew 16:18-20 means exactly what it says, and makes Peter the head of the apostles, and thus the entire Church, and his successors the same?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you are spirit and are life.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 7:24-25) (Matthew 7:13-14)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 14:15-17)
And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent Me, even so send I you. 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Matthew 10:6-14 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
 
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Ligurian

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Well, he did allow his name to be changed to "Rock". I don't know what it is with protestants and titles. And it's not a matter of what he allows himself to be called. The people of Rome first called the pope the pope. It wasn't something the man said "You should call me pope from now on."

There are rocks, and then there are rocks.

The church isn't built upon what people say about Jesus... this rock: Jesus

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon BarIonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art petros, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

petros = a (piece of) rock (larger than lithos, a stone)
petra = a (mass of) rock

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon this rock:
(If you do the words of Jesus then your house is built upon Jesus... which matches all the rest of the Kingdom Gospel doctrines.)

I don't think Jesus ever calls Simon by any other name. There are two Galilean Disciples called Simon, and Matthew and John used Peter or Simon Peter for this one.

Matthew 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Simon Ionas is said three times in John 21:15-17.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Agreed. My point is making Peter and his successors second to God and calling them "Holy Father" etc, is something the RCC invented somewhere down the line.
Jesus did that....
 
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Root of Jesse

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John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you are spirit and are life.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 7:24-25) (Matthew 7:13-14)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 14:15-17)
And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent Me, even so send I you. 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Matthew 10:6-14 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
What about John 6 in context, like, as a whole?
 
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Root of Jesse

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There are rocks, and then there are rocks.

The church isn't built upon what people say about Jesus... this rock: Jesus

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon BarIonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art petros, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

petros = a (piece of) rock (larger than lithos, a stone)
petra = a (mass of) rock

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon this rock:
(If you do the words of Jesus then your house is built upon Jesus... which matches all the rest of the Kingdom Gospel doctrines.)

I don't think Jesus ever calls Simon by any other name. There are two Galilean Disciples called Simon, and Matthew and John used Peter or Simon Peter for this one.

Matthew 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Simon Ionas is said three times in John 21:15-17.
So what?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Jesus made Peter second to God and gave him the title of Holy Father?
Is Jesus God? Yes, so Peter is second to God in terms of church authority.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually, Peter is second to Mary, who is the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of God, so that puts Peter somewhere between Mary and God.
Oh really...do explain.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Is Jesus God? Yes, so Peter is second to God in terms of church authority.

Is that scriptural or conjecture and tradition?

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19

Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. Matthew 18:18-19

As can be seen later on, Jesus tells other apostles what He told Peter.
 
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Ligurian

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John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you are spirit and are life.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 7:24-25) (Matthew 7:13-14)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 14:15-17)
And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent Me, even so send I you. 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

Matthew 10:6-14 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

What about John 6 in context, like, as a whole?

John 6 says that Jesus words are the flesh He's talking about.

It's from the same Disciple who says, And the word became flesh and dwelt among us... so it's pretty easy to decode.
 
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Ligurian

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Well, he did allow his name to be changed to "Rock".


So, where is Jesus actually calling Simon by the name of Peter... rather than referring to Simon as a piece of rock because the Father had revealed a mass of rock?

Matthew 17:25 What thinkest thou, Simon?
John 21:15-17 Simon Jonas, lovest thou Me?

tick tock
 
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Root of Jesse

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Is that scriptural or conjecture and tradition?

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:18-19

Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. Matthew 18:18-19

As can be seen later on, Jesus tells other apostles what He told Peter.
Well, you're on the right track. The Pope is no higher than any other bishop. It is true that he carries a greater burden than other bishops, but he is, simply one of many bishops. It is scriptural. Jesus appointed 12 apostles, all with the same authority. And it is of significant historical value that the bishop of Rome Pope Clement was asked to comment on another church's problems when he sent his letter to the Corinthians.
You also need to recognize what Sacred Tradition is, vs practices, or small t tradition. And of course, we don't see it today, because this Pope often speaks to the entire Church, but mostly, he's the Bishop of Rome.
 
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Root of Jesse

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John 6 says that Jesus words are the flesh He's talking about.

It's from the same Disciple who says, And the word became flesh and dwelt among us... so it's pretty easy to decode.
So what about the part where he says that unless we gnaw on his flesh and drink his blood, we have no life in us? How is that "his words are the flesh he's talking about"?
 
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Root of Jesse

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So, where is Jesus actually calling Simon by the name of Peter... rather than referring to Simon as a piece of rock because the Father had revealed a mass of rock?

Matthew 17:25 What thinkest thou, Simon?
John 21:15-17 Simon Jonas, lovest thou Me?

tick tock
Where did Jesus call Simon a piece of rock? Kepha doesn't mean "a piece of rock".
How many times in the New Testament is Peter called Simon, and how many times Peter? or Cephas or Kephas?
 
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