What has President Trump's time in office done to you, personally?

[DZoolander]

Stage 1 smog alert, stage 2 smog alert, etc. You rarely hear them talking about that any more.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're getting into discussions about a progressive tax vs. a flat tax - which is a different discussion.

What I was getting more along the lines of - okay - thanks for giving me a couple of perks that may yield me an extra couple of thousand per year - for the next 7-8 years or so.

...while also passing tons of deductions at the request of your campaign donors that benefit only them - and yield far greater rewards than what the middle class receives.

Someone else in this thread (and i think it was what prompted that question of mine) said:

"I'm tired of politicians throwing us a bone every now and then to placate us while working to enrich themselves and their friends."

How is this not an example of that? lol

Ah, the old Pelosi 'a thousand or a couple of thousand dollars are crumbs' philosophy. Well, if the Democrats had been willing, your tax cut would have been permanent or at least until the next Congress/President revokes it. As it is, there is plenty of time to make it permanent. Will the Democrats make it permanent if they regain power? Not likely. From how they argued, they consider the money theirs, not yours. Will the Republicans? Far more likely that they will when it comes times for the tax relief to expire. In either case the matter was left with Congress. Don't like it, then vote the Republicans out and put the Democrats back in power in Congress. And then see how much your interests will be considered if you happen to have a job and earn a decent income.

The deductions allowed are available to everybody. If you don't give anything to charity you won't benefit from charitable deductions, but millions of others including many among the less rich will. If you don't own a home, you won't benefit from mortgage and interest deductions, but millions of others including the less rich will. And should you prosper so that you can buy a home and/or give generously to charity, you will benefit from the deductions just like everybody else does.

Meanwhile I won't see a dime of extra money due to the tax cuts as I don't earn enough to have to pay federal income tax. And I don't begrudge you the couple of thousand of your own money that you get to keep in any way or anybody else getting to keep more of their own money. And I am already praising God that some people for whom I have been praying for years now are going back to work on full time jobs with good benefits and others are receiving nice raises as the business climate even in our business-unfriendly state is dramatically improving due to the new tax code and other business friendly policies put into place.

 

[DZoolander]

So, you see no issues with paying your congressman a few bucks while saying "Hey, it would be nice if I could deduct my child's private school tuition from my federal income taxes" - while simultaneously saying "state income taxes which pay for public education are no longer federally deductible"?

 

[Old Trapper]

?

In neither case is the money the government's money. It is money we each earned. It is our money and not anybody else's. And if those who are paying the huge lion's share of the taxes paid enjoy a tax break that is more because they have been paying so much more, we all should rejoice.

Truth is that the 1% do not "earn" their money, they take a share of what others earn for them. Wealth is not created by the 1% yet each year they take 80% of the wealth that is created by others. And they do not create jobs here in America as Trump demonstrates. and you should really do some research on what the 1%, and corporations, really pay. 2/3's pay zero dollars, and the average is around 14% which is lower then the average worker.

Perhaps it would serve you well to see what Christ taught about the use of wealth, and income inequality, where wealth comes from, what the Founding fathers thought of income inequality, and how Christians should judge others who call themselves Christian, and their treatment of workers, and their use of wealth.

 

[Old Trapper]

Will the Republicans? Far more likely that they will when it comes times for the tax relief to expire. In either case the matter was left with Congress.
.

If they had intended to do so they could have done it now as they did for the corporations.

 

[DZoolander]

There's a lot of dishonesty in the tax debates.

Like, you'll talk to people that will make the pronouncement "The rich pay the lions share of income tax!" - and they sincerely think that means that most tax revenue is floated by the wealthy. Why? Because that's what their pundits and politicians tell them.

But the truth is quite a bit more nuanced and doesn't bear that out at all. It's cherry picking of information and word games.

Like, when you hear them say "the wealthy pay 60% of all income tax!"...you never hear anyone then say..

"Well, what percent of total government revenue does income tax comprise?" That's important when trying to figure out if the belief is true, right? lol

Well, income tax is about 47% of federal government revenue.

60% of 47% = 28%.
Who pays the other 40% of the income tax? The middle class.

Where does the next biggest chunk of federal revenue come from, and who pays for that?

That's the payroll tax (you know, the tax that pays for medicare, social security, etc). That sits at about 34% or so.

Who pays that? Pretty much the middle class and working class. The wealthy pay little to no part of that. Due to the cap on taxable income - someone that earns a billion dollars per year pays no more toward that than I do...and if he earns that via capital gains...he pays nothing toward that.

That 34% is paid entirely by the middle and working class.

The last 20ish percent is a mixture of corporate taxes, misc ad valorem taxes, excise taxes, etc...

So you have all these people running around thinking/feeling like the wealthy pay 60% of ALL taxes...and deserve a break. The truth is, you can argue that they pay probably about 28-30% of all revenue...which puts a bit of a different spin on it when you consider they reap about 80-90% of all the rewards of the economy.

 

[Foxfyre]

Truth is that the 1% do not "earn" their money, they take a share of what others earn for them. Wealth is not created by the 1% yet each year they take 80% of the wealth that is created by others. And they do not create jobs here in America as Trump demonstrates. and you should really do some research on what the 1%, and corporations, really pay. 2/3's pay zero dollars, and the average is around 14% which is lower then the average worker.

Perhaps it would serve you well to see what Christ taught about the use of wealth, and income inequality, where wealth comes from, what the Founding fathers thought of income inequality, and how Christians should judge others who call themselves Christian, and their treatment of workers, and their use of wealth.

It does not matter how one acquires his/her wealth so long as he/she does not do so unethically, illegally, or by cheating others. It isn't my money. It isn't your money. It isn't the government's money. It is their money. And it is between them and God what is right that they do with it. As a Christian, I read in my Bible that I sin when I covet, that I sin when I take what isn't mine to take, and that I sin when I resent those who have more than I do or when I presume to consider myself more worthy or more righteous than another.

I am not speaking up to commend the rich--there are no doubt evil men and good men among them--and I have and will speak out when anybody, rich or poor, is doing evil. But neither do I condemn or complain about the rich for no other reason than they are rich. I do know without the rich and/or the big corporations that made them so, we would not have a lot of the great institutions of higher learning that we have, we would not have a lot of hospitals that we have, we would not have a lot of the great libraries, museum and zoo exhibits, great works of art, most of the content on PBS and NPR, or any other great philanthropic projects that have benefited the people greatly.

And yes some large corporation pay little or nothing in U.S. taxes. General Electric for instance didn't pay U.S. taxes for several years during the Obama Administration. Why? Because of the insanely high corporate tax rates here compared to what they had to pay overseas. So they operated their U.S. operations at a loss to avoid taxes while keeping their profitable operations overseas.

The new tax code along with roll back of hundreds of needless but expensive regulations will encourage huge amounts of U.S. capital that has been sheltered out of the country back home. It will encourage some of those overseas operations to come back to the USA. It is already happening.

 

[Old Trapper]

It does not matter how one acquires his/her wealth so long as he/she does not do so unethically, illegally, or by cheating others. It isn't my money. It isn't your money. It isn't the government's money. It is their money. And it is between them and God what is right that they do with it. As a Christian, I read in my Bible that I sin when I covet, that I sin when I take what isn't mine to take, and that I sin when I resent those who have more than I do or when I presume to consider myself more worthy or more righteous than another.

I am not speaking up to commend the rich--there are no doubt evil men and good men among them--and I have and will speak out when anybody, rich or poor, is doing evil. But neither do I condemn or complain about the rich for no other reason than they are rich. I do know without the rich and/or the big corporations that made them so, we would not have a lot of the great institutions of higher learning that we have, we would not have a lot of hospitals that we have, we would not have a lot of the great libraries, museum and zoo exhibits, great works of art, most of the content on PBS and NPR, or any other great philanthropic projects that have benefited the people greatly.

And yes some large corporation pay little or nothing in U.S. taxes. General Electric for instance didn't pay U.S. taxes for several years during the Obama Administration. Why? Because of the insanely high corporate tax rates here compared to what they had to pay overseas. So they operated their U.S. operations at a loss to avoid taxes while keeping their profitable operations overseas.

The new tax code along with roll back of hundreds of needless but expensive regulations will encourage huge amounts of U.S. capital that has been sheltered out of the country back home. It will encourage some of those overseas operations to come back to the USA. It is already happening.

 

[Old Trapper]

It does not matter how one acquires his/her wealth so long as he/she does not do so unethically, illegally, or by cheating others. It isn't my money. It isn't your money. It isn't the government's money. It is their money. And it is between them and God what is right that they do with it. As a Christian, I read in my Bible that I sin when I covet, that I sin when I take what isn't mine to take, and that I sin when I resent those who have more than I do or when I presume to consider myself more worthy or more righteous than another.

I am not speaking up to commend the rich--there are no doubt evil men and good men among them--and I have and will speak out when anybody, rich or poor, is doing evil. But neither do I condemn or complain about the rich for no other reason than they are rich. I do know without the rich and/or the big corporations that made them so, we would not have a lot of the great institutions of higher learning that we have, we would not have a lot of hospitals that we have, we would not have a lot of the great libraries, museum and zoo exhibits, great works of art, most of the content on PBS and NPR, or any other great philanthropic projects that have benefited the people greatly.

And yes some large corporation pay little or nothing in U.S. taxes. General Electric for instance didn't pay U.S. taxes for several years during the Obama Administration. Why? Because of the insanely high corporate tax rates here compared to what they had to pay overseas. So they operated their U.S. operations at a loss to avoid taxes while keeping their profitable operations overseas.

The new tax code along with roll back of hundreds of needless but expensive regulations will encourage huge amounts of U.S. capital that has been sheltered out of the country back home. It will encourage some of those overseas operations to come back to the USA. It is already happening.

There is so much wrong with this line of thinking I find it hard to even know where to start. However, it seems to be the common line given by the "conservative" side today to justify greed. Scripture says that if one sees one in need, and does not help that person then the love of God/Christ is not in them. The poor can do little to help others, yet the woman who gave two mites gave more then all of the others combined. And still that is not enough.

Is it "coveting" when one wishes others would do more? Not at all. Christ taught it would be harder of a wealthy man to enter the Kingdom then it would be for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Was He covetous of the rich man? I would hardly think so. You speak of "taking" from the wealthy what is theirs. Just how is that true? It was given to them by the government, not that they earned it. It was stolen from the worker through the practice of cheap labor, few benefits, etc. It was taken from the worker by the government through subsidies, and "incentives", to the wealthy.

You then talk of money overseas, and how the high taxes in the US urged corporations to keep their money over there for lower taxes. In reality it was the government (mostly led by "conservatives") that created loopholes in the tax code that allowed them to do so. And now while these same corporations are making massive profits here in this country that have accumulated trillions of dollars overseas that are not being used to create jobs. And in the new tax code just passed if they invest that money overseas they are allowed to not pay taxes on it. Only if they bring it back to the States are they required to pay the 10% tax in the new code (not the 21% everyone thinks it is). And the new corporate tax is permanent unlike the personal tax which is not. Then you have the "carried interest" benefit given to Private Equity firms, and Hedge Funds.

As to there bringing back money to the US, that too is a farce. Very few are, and the idea that a one time bonus is a "wage increase" is foolishness.

As to institutions of higher learning, you do know that the Ivy League Universities were started as schools for missionaries, and pastors, right? They were not started by the wealthy, or the corporations. Like hospitals, they were started by common people who saw a need, and in some cases garnered government support like the setting aside of sections 16, and 36, of each township for schools.

It is not "covetousness", "envy", or anything evil, to support the idea that wealth does not belong to the wealth especially when it is at the expense of the poor. Greed is.

 

[Root of Jesse]

As the rest of your response demonstrates, you are not interested in the truth just support for a lying derelict that has screwed everyone he was ever involved with including his wives. You remind me of several I argued with before the election one in particular, an old man like me called "Grumpy". These people claimed to be "christians" yet denied Gods word everytime it came to Trump. Their hatred for Clinton blinded them to the truth, and now their hatred for Democrats once again blinds them to the truth.

Catholics would tell you that you, also, deny God's word every time you deny that God's word is more than the Bible.
I did not elect Trump's personal history, just as you didn't consider Clinton's morality and drug use when you voted for him. I elected the best of the candidates presented.

I do not know if we are in the "end times" of the Bible. I do know that we are in a time where the it appears we are in those times. People are scared of the truth, and have turned their ears to those that teach falsehoods, and a time where morals are of no value. Then the fools wonder why homosexuality is rampant, and protected. They wonder why drugs are killing the children. Why abortion still exists. They wonder why poverty is so demanding while they support, and pay homage, to those that God says oppresses them.

I felt the same way during the Obama years. But I am mature enough to know that most things the President, whomever he might be, does don't affect me at all. What I'm happy to see, now, is that fewer people are on food stamps and unemployment and welfare, our vets are being taken care of, and my paycheck is going up, because the government only takes money out of my hard-earned paycheck, the only way government directly affects me.

Gods word means nothing to you, only lies, and falsehoods. And I tire of showing you the truth only to have you twist what I said into a lie that you can live with. You, and the Republican Party, are now protecting Trump, and his lies. At the same time Trump is protecting the enemies of America such as Russia, and China. And when it all comes to a head you will blame others, never yourself, or the Republicans.

ASSuming, aren't you? You have no idea how I pay attention to God's word.

It will be as God said it would be.

House Republicans Vote To Release Classified Memo They Wrote Attacking Russia Probe

Good, and I hope they release all the texts from the FBI Lovebirds. Bye Andy! The whole Obama house of cards is going down. Thank God for that.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Actually, that's not true.

I grew up in Los Angeles - and I very distinctly remember in the 1970's a CONSTANT haze of brown smog over the LA Basin. Always. I remember as a kid during the 70's constantly being told by the news that "tomorrow is a smog alert - stay inside as much as possible as the air will be unhealthy to breathe"

The air in LA is markedly better nowadays than it was back then.

Better, yes, but not great. A lot of it is because very little air movement, so nature doesn't do anything to help. Same thing where I live, up the coast. We get more air movement, so it gets dissipated. The real problem was that we needed more efficient auto engines, and we have them. But we need to get rid of CAFE standards, because those standards are killing people.

 

[Root of Jesse]

There is so much wrong with this line of thinking I find it hard to even know where to start. However, it seems to be the common line given by the "conservative" side today to justify greed. Scripture says that if one sees one in need, and does not help that person then the love of God/Christ is not in them. The poor can do little to help others, yet the woman who gave two mites gave more then all of the others combined. And still that is not enough.

Jesus also said that the poor would always be with us, to Judas when he complained about the use of the expensive ointment.
What I want to know is, why is it that you guys think government is the answer to everything? I donate about 15% of my income to charity, every year. I make sure that what I donate is used efficiently, one thing the government doesn't do. Government is not efficient at seeing to it that the dollar collected gets spent in the best way for the poor.

Is it "coveting" when one wishes others would do more? Not at all. Christ taught it would be harder of a wealthy man to enter the Kingdom then it would be for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Was He covetous of the rich man? I would hardly think so. You speak of "taking" from the wealthy what is theirs. Just how is that true? It was given to them by the government, not that they earned it. It was stolen from the worker through the practice of cheap labor, few benefits, etc. It was taken from the worker by the government through subsidies, and "incentives", to the wealthy.

Oh, I wish others would do more, but it must be freely done, not because the government says so. Christ didn't hate the rich, either, witness Matthew, the tax collector. The rich usually earn what they make, regardless of your rhetoric. If you want to stop 'cheap labor', stop illegals from taking jobs that pay under the table, and those employers that help them that way.

You then talk of money overseas, and how the high taxes in the US urged corporations to keep their money over there for lower taxes. In reality it was the government (mostly led by "conservatives") that created loopholes in the tax code that allowed them to do so. And now while these same corporations are making massive profits here in this country that have accumulated trillions of dollars overseas that are not being used to create jobs. And in the new tax code just passed if they invest that money overseas they are allowed to not pay taxes on it. Only if they bring it back to the States are they required to pay the 10% tax in the new code (not the 21% everyone thinks it is). And the new corporate tax is permanent unlike the personal tax which is not. Then you have the "carried interest" benefit given to Private Equity firms, and Hedge Funds.

As to there bringing back money to the US, that too is a farce. Very few are, and the idea that a one time bonus is a "wage increase" is foolishness.

As to institutions of higher learning, you do know that the Ivy League Universities were started as schools for missionaries, and pastors, right? They were not started by the wealthy, or the corporations. Like hospitals, they were started by common people who saw a need, and in some cases garnered government support like the setting aside of sections 16, and 36, of each township for schools.

Actually hospitals and universities were started by Catholics who wanted to take care of people in need, and to educate the populace. At least in Europe. But notice it was not government who started the hospitals and universities.

It is not "covetousness", "envy", or anything evil, to support the idea that wealth does not belong to the wealth especially when it is at the expense of the poor. Greed is.

People who earn their keep deserve what they earn. Even St. Paul said that those who don't work shouldn't eat.

 

[Root of Jesse]

There's a lot of dishonesty in the tax debates.

Like, you'll talk to people that will make the pronouncement "The rich pay the lions share of income tax!" - and they sincerely think that means that most tax revenue is floated by the wealthy. Why? Because that's what their pundits and politicians tell them.

But the truth is quite a bit more nuanced and doesn't bear that out at all. It's cherry picking of information and word games.

Like, when you hear them say "the wealthy pay 60% of all income tax!"...you never hear anyone then say..

"Well, what percent of total government revenue does income tax comprise?" That's important when trying to figure out if the belief is true, right? lol

Well, income tax is about 47% of federal government revenue.

60% of 47% = 28%.
Who pays the other 40% of the income tax? The middle class.

Where does the next biggest chunk of federal revenue come from, and who pays for that?

That's the payroll tax (you know, the tax that pays for medicare, social security, etc). That sits at about 34% or so.

Who pays that? Pretty much the middle class and working class. The wealthy pay little to no part of that. Due to the cap on taxable income - someone that earns a billion dollars per year pays no more toward that than I do...and if he earns that via capital gains...he pays nothing toward that.

That 34% is paid entirely by the middle and working class.

The last 20ish percent is a mixture of corporate taxes, misc ad valorem taxes, excise taxes, etc...

So you have all these people running around thinking/feeling like the wealthy pay 60% of ALL taxes...and deserve a break. The truth is, you can argue that they pay probably about 28-30% of all revenue...which puts a bit of a different spin on it when you consider they reap about 80-90% of all the rewards of the economy.

So, take my case. I pay 43% of my income, off the top, in taxes-income, SSI, Medicare, State and local. I pay 3% on my property tax (which is where real public education comes from) for sewage and roads, and schools. I pay 10% on anything I buy, and if I put away 15% of my income for retirement and savings, I'm paying, effectively, 50% of my income to the government.
My question to you is: Is it fair to work half a year before I see any of my income?

 

[DZoolander]

So, take my case. I pay 43% of my income, off the top, in taxes-income, SSI, Medicare, State and local. I pay 3% on my property tax (which is where real public education comes from) for sewage and roads, and schools. I pay 10% on anything I buy, and if I put away 15% of my income for retirement and savings, I'm paying, effectively, 50% of my income to the government.
My question to you is: Is it fair to work half a year before I see any of my income?

Nah, I don't particularly think that's fair.

But I do think that an honest conversation needs to be had with respect to how taxation actually works - and it needs to be dealt with in the piecemeal way it is levied. Too often people lump things together that are separate issues/taxes. Like in my post - they'll talk about how the "rich" are unfairly taxed - and then they'll turn around and point at programs like Medicare/SSI/etc - which they really have nothing to do with/don't pay at all. In an honest discussion about taxation - you can't lump those things together.

If we're discussing state taxes, then talk about state programs that might be done more efficiently. If we're talking about the Federal Income Tax, then talk about programs that the Federal Income Tax supports. If we're taking about Medicare/SSI, then talk about the payroll tax. Otherwise you might get into situations where worthwhile programs like Medicare are trimmed - so you can maintain the status quo on the Income Tax.

 

[Foxfyre]

So, take my case. I pay 43% of my income, off the top, in taxes-income, SSI, Medicare, State and local. I pay 3% on my property tax (which is where real public education comes from) for sewage and roads, and schools. I pay 10% on anything I buy, and if I put away 15% of my income for retirement and savings, I'm paying, effectively, 50% of my income to the government.
My question to you is: Is it fair to work half a year before I see any of my income?

Well said. I recall back when some enterprising conservative employer decided to take all of the employee's taxes for the month out of their first check to illustrate how little of their earnings they were actually taking home. It was no time that the government informed that employer that he was not allowed to do that.

Tax Freedom Day in 2017 was April 23. That meant that the average American worked 113 days for the government at all levels before he/she was working for himself/herself.

Roughly Americans collectively paid $3.5 trillion in federal taxes and $1.6 trillion in state and local taxes for a total of $5.1 trillion or roughly 31% of the nation's income. Americans would collectively spend more on taxes than they would spend on food, clothing, and housing combined. Include federal borrowing representing future taxes owed, Tax Freedom Day goes into sometime in May.
Tax Freedom Day® - Tax Foundation

Tax Freedom Day comes earlier or later depending on what state you live in and with some exceptions, those in the most liberal states generally pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes and it takes longer to reach Tax Freedom Day.

Now those numbers were based on Obama's budget and tax code. We'll have to see if the Trump budget and tax code make any difference. I can assure you the Tax Foundation will be on top of that. Before the tax reform package was passed, the Tax Freedom Day for 2018 was expected to be a day later than 2017, but they're still calculating what effect the new tax code and budget will have.

 

[DZoolander]

Better, yes, but not great. A lot of it is because very little air movement, so nature doesn't do anything to help. Same thing where I live, up the coast. We get more air movement, so it gets dissipated. The real problem was that we needed more efficient auto engines, and we have them. But we need to get rid of CAFE standards, because those standards are killing people.

Yeah, a lot of the problem that LA has with smog has to do with the geography. It's just a great big bowl for all intents and purposes. Lack of airflow lets it just accumulate - until late in the year when it finally rains and washes everything out.

Whereabouts in CA are you?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yeah, a lot of the problem that LA has with smog has to do with the geography. It's just a great big bowl for all intents and purposes. Lack of airflow lets it just accumulate - until late in the year when it finally rains and washes everything out.

Whereabouts in CA are you?

Northeast Bay Area. If you're aware of the effort in CA to cut the state in 2, I'm in the libertarian part. There's no conservative part of California.

 

[DZoolander]

Tax Freedom Day in 2017 was April 23. That meant that the average American worked 113 days for the government at all levels before he/she was working for himself/herself.

I always kinda wonder when I see things like that...

Don't people also say that half of all Americans pay no income tax at all? If that's true - then all they pay are the regional sales taxes & the payroll tax (at 6%).

How does that factor into the idea that they spend at least one third of the year paying taxes?

 

[Root of Jesse]

I always kinda wonder when I see things like that...

Don't people also say that half of all Americans pay no income tax at all? If that's true - then all they pay are the regional sales taxes & the payroll tax (at 6%).

How does that factor into the idea that they spend at least one third of the year paying taxes?

Regarding payroll tax, it's wrong to say that the employee only pays half of the payroll tax. Truth is, it's built into their salary, so they really pay all of it.
Regarding taxing the rich, what you have to do, if you want to tax the 'rich' is to take more of investment income. Buffet paying 15% is one thing, but he doesn't have other income, it's all from investments. But, then, taxing more of investment income would hurt those down the line, like me.

 

[DZoolander]

Northeast Bay Area. If you're aware of the effort in CA to cut the state in 2, I'm in the libertarian part. There's no conservative part of California.

Meh, there are parts...lol Most of rural CA is pretty conservative. Orange County in Southern California is pretty conservative, too.