What Happens When We Die

[LastSeven]

Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.

What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.

Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.

It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.

The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.
The living creature who sins…
The person who sins…
The individual who sins…

The Spirit (Ruach)

These are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example...
Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15
Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29
When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.

English Name (Hebrew Name)

The Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim)
The Spirit of the Lord (Ruach Adonai)
The Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakkodesh)
The Spirit of the Lord God (Ruach Adonai Elohim)
The Spirit of God (Ruach-El)

Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).

When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.

Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.

 

[BobRyan]

Great texts !! Thanks for sharing that!

This spells the "end" of halloween ghost nonsense.

 

[Hoghead1]

That is more or less teh case with Scripture, LastSeven. In the OT, there is Sheole, where "souls" do seem to live in a kind of daze or half-awake, half-asleep state. It is unclear who all is in Sheole. . There are passages where the unrighteous are said to be there along with the righteous. In the NT, there are references to some sort of Heaven, but it is not clear what really goes on there. Also, there are references to what seems like "Hell," but again it is unclear what really happens there. Most of the traditional Christian images of Heaven and Hell are based on later Christina imagination, not Scripture.

 

[jesus4gaveme03]

Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.

Of all the references you have provided, they all refer to a person going to Heaven, whether it be immediately after death or after Jesus' first return. None of your references talk about sinners going to Hell.

Yes that is true that Jesus gave up His spirit at the cross. But the Bible also says "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 http://biblehub.com/john/20-17.htm

Jesus died and took on our sins and went to Hell for our sake. On the third day His spirit was reconnected with his body and He was risen. He had not yet entered Heaven with God the Father when he told Mary Magdalene to not touch Him.

“34 Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world'...41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepare for the devil and his angels'...46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matt. 25:34, 41, 46 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:34,41,46&version=NASB

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28

39One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41“And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+23:39-43&version=NASB

How can the criminal praising Jesus be with God the Father in Heaven "today", when people sleep when they die?

Before you catch me in a lie, Jesus is one with the Father. If the spirit went to hell while the body remained on earth, the criminal was with God the Father in Heaven and Jesus' statement of "be with Me in paradise" remains true.

 

[LastSeven]

That is more or less teh case with Scripture, LastSeven. In the OT, there is Sheole, where "souls" do seem to live in a kind of daze or half-awake, half-asleep state. It is unclear who all is in Sheole. . There are passages where the unrighteous are said to be there along with the righteous. In the NT, there are references to some sort of Heaven, but it is not clear what really goes on there. Also, there are references to what seems like "Hell," but again it is unclear what really happens there. Most of the traditional Christian images of Heaven and Hell are based on later Christina imagination, not Scripture.

Actually, in my studies I've discovered that Sheol is simply the state of death. It's not a physical place where people go. It's used in the same manner as we use the word sleep in modern English. One "goes" to sheol, in the same way one "goes" to sleep. This is why it's a "place" for both the righteous and the wicked. If you're dead, you're said to have "gone to sheol".

 

[LastSeven]

Of all the references you have provided, they all refer to a person going to Heaven, whether it be immediately after death or after Jesus' first return. None of your references talk about sinners going to Hell.

You bring up the point of hell, and this is something important to consider. Think about this now.
When is the time of judgment? After the resurrection on the last day.
What happens at the time of judgment? It is decided who lives, and who dies (in hell)

So, how then can people have already been doomed to hell, if they have not yet been judged? And if the judgment is carried out immediately upon death, then what is the point of the great white throne judgment? Conversely, as I said in the OP, what is the point of being transformed into a spirit, if we are already spirits?

This is why it doesn't make sense to say people go to hell immediately upon death. They first need to be judged. Nobody goes to heaven or hell until after the judgment, after the resurrection, on the last day.

Jesus died and took on our sins and went to Hell for our sake.

Jesus went to hell? Are you sure about that?

I know you're talking about 1 Peter 3:18-20 but that passage does not say what you think it says. How do I know that? I know it because it would have to contradict all the other scripture verses I gave in my opening post, and there are no contradictions in scripture, only misunderstandings.

On the third day His spirit was reconnected with his body and He was risen.

Nowhere does it say that "his spirit reconnected with his body". You have to be very careful not to insert assumptions that are not actually written. That's how your mind can lead you down the wrong path.

You assume that his spirit was reconnected with his body because he rose from the dead, and you have a preconceived notion that the only way to rise from the dead is to have your spirit reconnect with your body. However, if you leave out your preconceived notion and read only what it says, you will see what I see. No evidence of a spirit.

 

[LastSeven]

But the Bible also says "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 http://biblehub.com/john/20-17.htm

I'm not sure what your point is regarding this passage.

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28

"fear Him". This is a reference to God himself, as God is able to destroy both the body and the life that he gave you.

You see we've all received the breath of life, though it returns to God when we die, it will return to us again when we are resurrected. At that point, we are either determined worthy to keep that life forever, or that life is utterly destroyed in the lake of fire.

The "soul" refers to your life. Not a ghostly spirit.

 

[LastSeven]

How can the criminal praising Jesus be with God the Father in Heaven "today", when people sleep when they die?

I don't know. Perhaps when we die, we dream about paradise. Or perhaps Jesus meant that the thief would finally get rest. Or maybe when Jesus said "this day" he wasn't talking about an earthly 24 hour day. What I do know for sure is that the Bible clearly states in multiple places that when we die, we return to the dust. Yes, there are a few verses that are hard to reconcile, but these verses are nebulous to say the least, and we must always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture.

We can't say that we don't return to dust simply because Jesus had this mysterious conversation with the thief, when the Bible clearly states that we do return to dust multiple times. We can't throw out all those other very clear verses of scripture simply because we prefer the interpretation that this one allows us. There must be another explanation that jives with the rest of scripture, because if the verses don't jive, we're not reading it right and we're fooling ourselves.

Don't forget, we are transformed into spirits upon the resurrection. This proves that we are not already spirits. If a verse or two give the impression that we are already spirits, then you're getting the wrong impression.

Now, if Jesus had said to the thief "as soon as you die your conscious spirit will leave your body and go to paradise where you can reunite with your grandma and catch up on old times" then we'd be having a different conversation, because that would be pretty clear, but he didn't say that.

 

[Goodbook]

arent we triparate - soul, spirit and body?

I agree it is confusing when some churches teach one thing and the bible says another.
I do believe in a bodily resurrection, unlike some christians who seem to think that once you die there is no use for your body at all, and then its ok to crush it and burn it.

I think something happens to your bones and there God can put flesh back on it.
As for paradise it would seem that is a resting place for souls before Heaven, and there is sheol or Hades for those who aren't saved and destined for hell at the final judgement.

Only those saved have the born again spirit of the Living God inside them and will rise to Heaven, those who don't will go down into the pit (Hell). I think that, the timing of it, and what is said in the Bible is that of course when the dead rise we will 'all be together' Its not quite clear whether this is all at once in which case billions of souls would be being resurrected and we just wouldn't miss it. Or whether you can believe in something else that people are already there waiting. But I think its plainly obvious that nobody has raised from the dead yet and all those cemeteries still have peoples bodies buried there!!!!

 

[expos4ever]

arent we triparate - soul, spirit and body?

I doubt it. I think we need to understand that we in the 21st century west are heirs to Greek Platonic thinking, and it is these Greek ideas of a an "immaterial consciousness-bearing" soul (or perhaps Spirit) that inhabits a "body" that is otherwise just a kind of shell that have tripped us up. I believe that historians of culture will tell us that the people who wrote the Bible did not think this way at all. Instead, they conceived of the human person as a much integrated kind of thing, not decomposable into things like soul, spirit, and body.

So I largely agree with the OP.

 

[LastSeven]

I think something happens to your bones and there God can put flesh back on it.

Actually, in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says that we are raised with spiritual bodies, so there will no new flesh put on our bones. In fact, that's the whole point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual / immortal. If we were raised as flesh, we would still be mortal.

1 Corinthians 15
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

 

[expos4ever]

Actually, in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says that we are raised with spiritual bodies, so there will no new flesh put on our bones.

Although we agree on some things, I think I disagree with this - it all depends on what you mean by a "spiritual" body. I think that the scriptures - especially 1 Corinthians 15 - make it clear that when we are resurrected we will have bodies - things with arms, heads, toes, stomachs, etc. etc. Do you not believe 1 cor 15 teaches that we will get bodies like Jesus was given? Did the resurrected Jesus not have legs, a head, fingers, etc.?

The word "spiritual" should not be assumed to mean non-physical - that is the problem of Greek Platonism rearing its ugly head again. Now, obviously the bodies we will be given will not be made of the same "stuff" as our present body is made of. But it will be a body in the sense of being a thing that can walk, talk, eat, etc.

 

[zippy2]

I don't know. Perhaps when we die, we dream about paradise. Or perhaps Jesus meant that the thief would finally get rest. Or maybe when Jesus said "this day" he wasn't talking about an earthly 24 hour day. What I do know for sure is that the Bible clearly states in multiple places that when we die, we return to the dust. Yes, there are a few verses that are hard to reconcile, but these verses are nebulous to say the least, and we must always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture.

We can't say that we don't return to dust simply because Jesus had this mysterious conversation with the thief, when the Bible clearly states that we do return to dust multiple times. We can't throw out all those other very clear verses of scripture simply because we prefer the interpretation that this one allows us. There must be another explanation that jives with the rest of scripture, because if the verses don't jive, we're not reading it right and we're fooling ourselves.

Don't forget, we are transformed into spirits upon the resurrection. This proves that we are not already spirits. If a verse or two give the impression that we are already spirits, then you're getting the wrong impression.

Now, if Jesus had said to the thief "as soon as you die your conscious spirit will leave your body and go to paradise where you can reunite with your grandma and catch up on old times" then we'd be having a different conversation, because that would be pretty clear, but he didn't say that.

How then do you deal with the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the accension of Jesus?

 

[LastSeven]

Although we agree on some things, I think I disagree with this - it all depends on what you mean by a "spiritual" body. I think that the scriptures - especially 1 Corinthians 15 - make it clear that when we are resurrected we will have bodies - things with arms, heads, toes, stomachs, etc. etc. Do you not believe 1 cor 15 teaches that we will get bodies like Jesus was given? Did the resurrected Jesus not have legs, a head, fingers, etc.?

The word "spiritual" should not be assumed to mean non-physical - that is the problem of Greek Platonism rearing its ugly head again. Now, obviously the bodies we will be given will not be made of the same "stuff" as our present body is made of. But it will be a body in the sense of being a thing that can walk, talk, eat, etc.

Well, the truth is, we don't really know what a "spiritual" body is like, although we have a few clues. I suspect our spiritual bodies will be just like the angels who can manifest in various forms, visible or invisible.

And I suspect that Jesus had this same type of body after his resurrection. His original body did not stay in the tomb, but he was transformed. Remember that Jesus after his resurrection was able to enter a locked room without opening the door, yet at the same time Thomas was able to feel the wounds in Jesus' hands. Jesus also was unrecognizable to Mary and some of the disciples after his resurrection. Had he changed his appearance?

So I don't think spiritual bodies are what we typically think of, like a whispy ghostly thing, but rather the type of body over which we have full control; as in full control over the molecules that make up the body allowing us to pass through solid objects, change our appearance and perhaps even fly in the air. Definitely immortal.

 

[LastSeven]

How then do you deal with the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the accension of Jesus?

I'm not sure, but it's possible they were resurrected already and transformed, as we will be. The Bible doesn't tell us much about this other than that the burial place of Moses was to be kept secret. Perhaps if we knew where he was buried we would also know that his tomb is now empty and imagine the kind of trouble that would cause.

Also Jude 1 says "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”.

So there was something special about the body of Moses after his death.

Elijah of course was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind, so I suspect he also was transformed at that time.

 

[expos4ever]

So I don't think spiritual bodies are what we typically think of, like a whispy ghostly thing, but rather the type of body over which we have full control; as in full control over the molecules that make up the body allowing us to pass through solid objects, change our appearance and perhaps even fly in the air. Definitely immortal.

Well, I guess we agree after all. What fun is that?

 

[Caleb-D]

Please read the verses below from Luke chapter 8 -

51When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother.52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”

53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” 55Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

I'm not exactly sure where the girl's spirit returned from, but my guess would be from Sheol after Jesus commanded it to return to her body.

 

[LastSeven]

Please read the verses below from Luke chapter 8 -

Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. ...

I'm not exactly sure where the girl's spirit returned from, but my guess would be from Sheol after Jesus commanded it to return to her body.

You don't have to guess. The answer is in the Bible. It's also been addressed in the OP.

Her spirit did return to her, but her spirit is not what you think. Her "spirit" is her life. And her life had returned to God from where it came.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

And it's way back in Genesis where we see that God gave the "spirit".

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I encourage you to read the OP, as there's quite a bit of information there and it's redundant to repeat it all again here. I know it seems a bit long but it's an easy read. The key is that "spirit" is not what you think it is, rather it's simply "the breath of life". We know this when we look at the original Hebrew word used for spirit, or in the case of the new testament, the Greek word used for spirit.

So yes, the girl's life did return to her, but it does not say that she has a conscious spirit that separates from her body.

 

[Caleb-D]

Spirit is spirit. Period. What the Bible says is absolute fact.

 

[LastSeven]

You're right when you say what the Bible says is absolute fact, but apparently you don't really know what the Bible says. Read the OP.