Sanctification and Rebirth

[RandyPNW]

Sanctification and Rebirth.
Some of us have gotten these things mixed up, depending on our upbringing. I was raised in Lutheranism, and much of the spiritual life was lost on me and on the church, I think. I was raised in the knowledge of God but lacked the spiritual experience which many Pentecostals call "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit." However, the Bible just called it being "filled with the Spirit," which is something that was supposed to accompany our initial commitment to the Lord.

In my own experience, I walked away from what I knew about righteous Christian living until I was so smitten by my conscience that I had to go back to what I thought was boring religious rules. But somehow I came to learn that if I recommit myself to biblical principles and walk in the knowledge of God's righteousness I could be filled with the Spirit, having a more genuine Christian experience. I learned that Christianity is not just living by rules, but more, by living by the rules of God's presence. That means we serve Him and do what pleases Him. Then we can be filled with the Spirit.

This turn to living in righteousness all the time is what I think the Sanctification movement called a "2nd Blessing." And it is also what Pentecostals call a 2nd or "3rd blessing." In reality, they are all the same thing as they were meant to be experienced--not one experience after another, but all part of the same package.

When we convert from our backslidden condition, or from our pagan life, we embrace Christ as a living Deity. He is the human representative of the omnipresent God. We accept his life as the substitute for our failures, and then accept his gracious offer to be filled with both his righteousness and Holy Spirit. It is a choice we make, which obtains, as a result, God's presence in our lives. We can thus live by rules that He leads us by every day, and do so with the intimate sense of whether He is pleased with us or not. This will maintain our spiritual status with Him.

If we wish to walk in God's good pleasure, we must choose to know Him and to obey Him. In this way we can experience Salvation, Sanctification, and the Spirit Baptism all at once!

 

[tonychanyt]

However, the Bible just called it being "filled with the Spirit," which is something that was supposed to accompany our initial commitment to the Lord.

More specifically, it is the indwelling of the Paraclete. See In terms of spiritual mechanics or dynamics, what does it mean being born again?

 

[RandyPNW]

More specifically, it is the indwelling of the Paraclete. See In terms of spiritual mechanics or dynamics, what does it mean being born again?

Amen. I cannot actually remember being "born again" because I was raised in church and have been praying since the time I was 1st able to do so. In the Lutheran tradition we are baptized as infants, which doesn't appear to be biblical "Baptism," but suffices as a dedication of infants so that they are promised to be raised up as Christians.

But my experience was, I think, much like unborn again people inasmuch as I did not know the indwelling of the Paraclete, as you call Him. God was with me all the time, but I never experienced the "power of His presence." He was simply "there" in my life, whenever I wanted to talk with Him.

When I ran into people who did experience Jesus in a fuller way, who had been "filled with the Spirit," I became more interested in walking with God. It was when I read in the Scriptures that God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him that I was suddenly and noticeably "filled with the Spirit." This is certainly well beyond what I was raised to believe Christianity was.

Watchman Nee, my favorite teacher (via books), called it "the normal Christian life." That was anything but "normal" to what I had been brought up to believe!

Thank you for your considered statements and for your thought-provoking questions. Blessings!

Matt 3.11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 8.15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 18.25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

The baptism is "of the Spirit" because Christ offered something beyond the blessings of obedience under the Law. It wasn't just the symbolism of water, indicating that we are forgiven and cleansed of our sins. More, it is an immersion into the person whose name in which we are baptized so that we obtain any benefits from that name.

Jesus offered those baptized in his name Eternal Life along with the gift of his Spirit as a down payment on that eternal promise. But the Spirit was also given as a means of carrying out our mission to witness to the Lord's power to save and to judge.

The "fire," I think, separates one, or sanctifies one, from the world, so that he is sanctified by participation in the death of Christ. That way we may, by the Spirit, then live in the Life of Christ, as Christ was raised up out of death following his cross.

 

[tonychanyt]

More, it is an immersion into the person whose name in which we are baptized so that we obtain any benefits from that name.

Right. See My take on the baptism of the Spirit

 

[RandyPNW]

Right. See My take on the baptism of the Spirit

Well said! I like how you examine the various words being used.

To be honest, I don't know where the practice of Baptism originated? John the Baptist just started doing it.

It wasn't like Elisha and Naaman. It wasn't like the Red Sea passage. It was a unique practice that evidently portrayed a complete commitment, perhaps to the death. Or it portrayed cleansing from Sin.

At any rate, Water Baptism was designed to be applied in a different way with respect to Messiah, after he had come. He would Baptize with the Spirit, meaning that his followers make a complete commitment by our immersion in the Holy Spirit. That's the best I can do with it.

 

[tonychanyt]

I don't know where the practice of Baptism originated?

It was related to Mikvah. See Mikvah and John the Baptizer

 

[bling]

Born again is a huge topic where we cannot all be right.

John 3 Nicodemus and born again

Nicodemus’ job was to help Jews with their problems, but was he addressing his own problem, since Jesus is telling him he has a huge problem, which Nichodemus had the answer to. This sounds very much like myself, so I can easily relate to Nicodemus and unfortunately react like Nicodemus, which is not good. We know better, we should have done or do, than we do.

One of Jesus’ jobs is to help individuals reach the next level in their spiritual growth, but they first got to do what they personally already know to do. If they are not going to do what they already know to do, there is no reason to try and move forward. Christ is hard on people not doing what they know they can/ could/ should do (“why come to me if you already know what to do”) and Christ is not “Mr. Answer Man”, but forces you to think and answer your own questions.

We need to try and put ourselves in Nicodemus’ shoes at that time and place, so what does Nicodemus know he should do (without any need for help from Christ) that he is not doing for his spiritual growth?

It is fine and nice Nicodemus wants to learn more about Christ, but again he is not dealing with the knowledge he already has, so what will he do with more knowledge of Christ?

Set Christ aside for a moment, who and what teaching is out there, that Nicodemus has to deal with? John the Baptist had to be a hot topic among all the Pharisees and in the Sanhedrin especially. Scholars like Nicodemus would have easily concluded John was a prophet of God, being totally consistent with scripture. All the common Jewish people accepted John’s message (the truth taught in scripture plus the prophecies concerning the Christ) and were baptized, so it would be much easier for Bible Scholars to understand the truth. They did not debate what he was saying with him or his disciples, so it appears there was nothing to debate.

A problem for Nicodemus is the fact: “if Nicodemus submits to John’s baptism he would have been kicked out of the Sanhedrin, so what did Nicodemus decide to do?”



One issue with the amniotic fluid be considered “water” in the first century does not hold well, since it was dirty (really being the baby’s pee). The “water” spoken of also seems to be something should do and not something we all experience. (more can be said)

To make this Christian Baptism, means you have to be Christian immersion water baptism as a requirement for entering the kingdom, so your hell bound without this baptism. Problems with this are: people even in the OT who were not baptized, are part of the Kingdom today. Christian baptism has not yet been instituted. There are all the other scriptures describing “born again”, becoming a child of God, born seems to believe in Christ, not needing water, and others.

My idea is this and I will emphasis the differences with the book’s conclusions: context, context, context, context and context



1. Why did Nicodemus describe Jesus as “Rabbi”?

2. The whole coming at night with Jesus saying: “Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.” So what evil is Nicodemus involved in doing at this time?

3. Jesus says: 11 “Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still, you people do not accept our testimony”, so who is the “we” making testimony and the “you people” not accepting?

4. The book likes to skip to the next individual encounter of Jesus, but sandwiched in-between is the narrative on John the Baptist, so why is John the Baptist, right after the Nichodemus story?

5. John says something very similar to Jesus: 32 “He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony” and goes on to say: 36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.” (Is that not John the Baptist’s testimony?)

I always say: “When I approach someone of different believes I start with where we agree and move from there”. Jesus would know the full extent of where Nicodemus was in agreement with the truth and hit him at the highest point, but would it be truth Nicodemus knew, but would not speak?

Nicodemus at this point would not be sure Jesus was the Messiah, but what did he know?

As we see from Jesus’ response to Nicodemus, Jesus is responding to what is on the heart of Nicodemus (this is like all of Jesus’ responses to all people who come to him) and from “I tell you”, It is very individual. This is particularly for Nicodemus. Nicodemus cannot just shrug it off because Jesus presses him with 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?”

Does that mean Nicodemus did understand, but was not admitting it?

If we could determine how far along Nicodemus was in his Spiritual growth, we could than know what Christ was addressing and pressing Nicodemus with. So where is Nicodemus from the context? What did he know (where did they agree) and yet he was not teaching (thus doing evil)? What question did Nicodemus not want to address in the light publicly?

 

[RandyPNW]

Born again is a huge topic where we cannot all be right.

John 3 Nicodemus and born again

That's a pretty thoughtful post--thank you! My own thought is that the reference to being "born of water" is a reference to our birth to the natural creation, which was founded on water. Water is one of the major substances of our existence, and without it we would not be born.

So I think the idea is that we should not just be born naturally, but we should also be born supernaturally, from above. And this happens when we choose not just to cooperate with the Spirit, but more, to embrace the Spirit at the core of our life, giving us an entirely new nature patterned after Jesus.

I agree that Nicodemus is being treated by Jesus as one who should've known about "spiritual birth." I think, therefore, that this teaching had already been implicit in the teaching of the Law and in the history of Israel in which Israel was led by prophets and saints of various kinds. Israel herself was in covenant with a supernatural God, making them children of the Spirit. They were to walk by a word from heaven to their conscience, as opposed to their own self-conceived will. Their choices were to be made "in the light" and not in the darkness or in a corner.

Anyway, Nicodemus shouldn't have operated on a purely "human" level, knowing about divine revelation. And I agree with you that John the Baptist would certainly have made an impact on him. Paul himself saw our spiritual birth as a concept taken right out of Israel's birth as a nation at the Red Sea....

1 Cor 10.1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

In being "baptized" in the Red Sea they were being "born" as a "spiritual nation." This is the essence, I think, of the New Birth. We come through the waters of Baptism in Christ's name to start a new spiritual voyage that is now sealed with Eternal Life.

 

[tonychanyt]

Born again is a huge topic where we cannot all be right.

Check this out: In terms of spiritual mechanics or dynamics, what does it mean being born again?

 

[bling]

Check this out: In terms of spiritual mechanics or dynamics, what does it mean being born again?

I already read this post.