What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

mark kennedy

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Thanks Mark. (I wanted to let you know that on the other post where you were the only one to guess which one was true and you guessed the first of five, I just wanted to let you know they were all true. Just thought you might be interested.)
I'm sorry, could you explain that a little, I'm a little foggy what you mean.
 
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mark kennedy

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First, I have debated against Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), or Free Grace for many years now. I know the excuses and verses commonly used by Eternal Security proponents and it the most easy man made belief to refute. All one has to do is keep reading their own Bible and they will find a verse that undoes a supposed OSAS verse. Anyways, through out the years, I have discovered that there are different versions of Eternal Security.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. I have ran into people like this both online and in person. One person admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine and they would still be saved in the process.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. I have ran into a few of these individuals before.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). I know of only one person in whom I know personally who believes this. This belief appears to be a rare and or I simply have not run into many who believe this way. The major problem I have with this version of Eternal Security is that it makes you doubt the promises of God and it denies that a believer has free will to decide His destiny with the Lord.

Does your view of Eternal Security or OSAS match up with any of the ones above?
Or is your view of Eternal Security different?
If so, please explain.
Remember, to make sure you include your statement about the Carnal Christian being saved (if you do).

Also, usually when an Eternal Security preacher tells an audience that they are saved by what Jesus did and it is in nothing in what they do (and they stop in their message), then the audience is going to think they have a license to sin.

Second, Eternal Security has led people into a life style of sin. It is not a matter of debate, but it is a fact. I have provided testimonies to show that very fact. So it does not matter if people who believe in OSAS here are living in a lifestyle of sin or not. The fact of the matter we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Mass Murder, Suicide, & OSAS:
George Sodini.



The reason I see as to why people accept Theistic Evolution is that they are trying to be friends with the world still (i.e. Worldly Science and or Thinking). However, one has to reject the world and it's ways and radically accept God's Word in what it says; And they should not try and cram outside ideas into the Bible. The solution is Jesus and prayer (of course) and not a debate with Scripture - IMO.

For I am not here on this Earth to preach the creation.
I am here to preach Jesus Christ.


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Jason I don't know how many times I have to tell you this, we are not going there. Your not interested in the actual doctrine so your wasting your time on me.

One more time. Here is the verse people.

The Bible says,

"it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein." (Leviticus 22:21).

"Perfect" is related to having "no blemish."


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The word for 'perfect' in the New Testament isn't Hebrew, it's Greek.

Oh and by the way, about (Leviticus 22:21), that's the sacrificial lamb, the shadow being fulfilled in the substance of Christ.
 
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mark kennedy

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At least he researched it and found the Greek word telos.

Your arguing a translated English word. Lol
We must not judge him too harshly, he means well. Actually the word 'telos' is an important word in Greek philosophy. It's the idea of the end to which things are directed, in the context of Matthew 5 Jesus is talking about the communicable attributes of God.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Oh I get it, how interesting....

The singer and the first one were the same person. He wouldn't let himself be photographed, so they had a stand in for photos on album covers, and the double would lip sync in public performances. The others I learned from a couple secret service men I knew. My friend in the first one about H, was actually his nephew. His father was the brother of H.
 
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mark kennedy

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The singer and the first one were the same person. He wouldn't let himself be photographed, so they had a stand in for photos on album covers, and the double would lip sync in public performances. The others I learned from a couple secret service men I knew. My friend in the first one about H, was actually his nephew. His father was the brother of H.
That's interesting...and mildly disturbing...
 
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Jason I don't know how many times I have to tell you this, we are not going there. Your not interested in the actual doctrine so your wasting your time on me.


The word for 'perfect' in the New Testament isn't Hebrew, it's Greek.

Oh and by the way, about (Leviticus 22:21), that's the sacrificial lamb, the shadow being fulfilled in the substance of Christ.
No. You simply do not like the word "perfect" so you are seeking to change what it says. For does God change His definition on words between the Hebrew and Greek for us in the English? While this may be the case with the words like "sons of God" (which is a name or noun), I have not seen this happen with an adjective. Besides, did you grow up speaking and writing Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek amongst that culture to truly know with 100% certainty to know what it says in these languages? Did you talk with Moses and Paul to confirm your findings? Surely not. So stick with the English; And look at the context instead.

We also see elsewhere in the New Testament the use of the words "without blemish" is tied with being holy in regards to the saints. Are you going to change the meaning of the words "without blemish", too?

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:27).

The Bible also uses the word "blameless" in reference to the saints amongst a nation who is crooked and perverse.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

Are you going to change the word "blameless", too?

You have to change them if you want to make your doctrine that is not biblical work.
Good luck with that.


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Jason I don't know how many times I have to tell you this, we are not going there. Your not interested in the actual doctrine so your wasting your time on me.

In regards to your beliefs in Eternal Security and Anti-Sinless Perfectionism:

Well, if you have the truth, then surely you should be able to defend against what I said in some way. It seems like you are avoiding the issue. This tells me that your two doctrines (here) are not strong enough to hold up against any kind of scrutiny.


...
 
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mark kennedy

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No. You simply do not like the word "perfect" so you are seeking to change what it says. For does God change His definition on words between the Hebrew and Greek for us in the English?

You really don't know what a lexicon or a dictionary is do you? But you wouldn't need one because you know everything off the top of your head. What a word means is not your private interpretation and I noticed, you didn't even bother to read what exegetical scholars had to say about it.

Perfect (G5056 - telos τέλος) Of the 45 times it's used in the NT, 35 times it's translated 'end'. It signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect." it is used of persons, "complete," conveying the idea of goodness without necessary reference to maturity or what is expressed under (a), Mat 5:48; 19:21; Jam 1:4 (2nd part); 3:2. It is used thus of God in Mat 5:48. (Vine’s Dictionary)​

Perfect still means perfect.
Perfect does not mean complete.

That's exactly what it means signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect.". That's exactly what it means in Matt 5:48:

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
This is why I can't talk theology with you as much as I would like to. In theology semantics are vital so defining your terms is essential. Words have inherent meaning Jason, you don't get to reassign meaning to suit your own private interpretation based on a random cross reference.

Being perfect in the sense Jesus is using it speaks to the 'divine nature', received by grace through faith based on the completed work of Christ.

In order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:7-9)
Now here is your connection to the sacrificial lamb, that was to be without blemish or spot (Ephesians 5:27, Philippians 2:15).

‘Without blemish’ (G299 ἄμωμος amōmos) - Without blame (blemish, fault, spot), faultless, unblamable.
Used of Christ (Eph 1:4), the church (Eph. 5:27), the resurrection (Col. 1:22), the purging of the conscience (Heb. 9:14), the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:19), the perserverance of the saints (Jude 1:24), and words without guile (Rev. 14:5).

That's how you do an exegetical study, based on that you can do a real exposition. Compulsive cross referencing neglects the context of the proof text, making it a pretext.

Words have inherent meaning, 'perfect' means 'complete' in Matt. 5:27. That's not my opinion, that is what it literally means.

In regards to your beliefs in Eternal Security and Anti-Sinless Perfectionism:

Well, if you have the truth, then surely you should be able to defend against what I said in some way. It seems like you are avoiding the issue. This tells me that your two doctrines (here) are not strong enough to hold up against any kind of scrutiny.


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First of all you haven't the patience to discuss eternal security and there is no such thing as Anti-Sinless Perfectionism. I studied at a Nazarene Bible college, the only denomination that actually embraces the Wesleyan, 'entire sanctification' doctrine. It was the basis for the Holiness Movement and the spin off Pentecostal churches. After Justification by faith and reliability of Scripture it was one of the most important doctrines I started studying decades ago.

I'll tell you what Jason, you want to talk about these things then at least learn what it is your are pontificating about. Is your view Arminian or Calvinist because I know your not Catholic?

Last chance, you want to talk theology then define your terms.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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You really don't know what a lexicon or a dictionary is do you? But you wouldn't need one because you know everything off the top of your head. What a word means is not your private interpretation and I noticed, you didn't even bother to read what exegetical scholars had to say about it.

Perfect (G5056 - telos τέλος) Of the 45 times it's used in the NT, 35 times it's translated 'end'. It signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect." it is used of persons, "complete," conveying the idea of goodness without necessary reference to maturity or what is expressed under (a), Mat 5:48; 19:21; Jam 1:4 (2nd part); 3:2. It is used thus of God in Mat 5:48. (Vine’s Dictionary)​



That's exactly what it means signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect.". That's exactly what it means in Matt 5:48:

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
This is why I can't talk theology with you as much as I would like to. In theology semantics are vital so defining your terms is essential. Words have inherent meaning Jason, you don't get to reassign meaning to suit your own private interpretation based on a random cross reference.

Being perfect in the sense Jesus is using it speaks to the 'divine nature', received by grace through faith based on the completed work of Christ.

In order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:7-9)
Now here is your connection to the sacrificial lamb, that was to be without blemish or spot (Ephesians 5:27, Philippians 2:15).

‘Without blemish’ (G299 ἄμωμος amōmos) - Without blame (blemish, fault, spot), faultless, unblamable.
Used of Christ (Eph 1:4), the church (Eph. 5:27), the resurrection (Col. 1:22), the purging of the conscience (Heb. 9:14), the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:19), the perserverance of the saints (Jude 1:24), and words without guile (Rev. 14:5).

That's how you do an exegetical study, based on that you can do a real exposition. Compulsive cross referencing neglects the context of the proof text, making it a pretext.

Words have inherent meaning, 'perfect' means 'complete' in Matt. 5:27. That's not my opinion, that is what it literally means.


First of all you haven't the patience to discuss eternal security and there is no such thing as Anti-Sinless Perfectionism. I studied at a Nazarene Bible college, the only denomination that actually embraces the Wesleyan, 'entire sanctification' doctrine. It was the basis for the Holiness Movement and the spin off Pentecostal churches. After Justification by faith and reliability of Scripture it was one of the most important doctrines I started studying decades ago.

I'll tell you what Jason, you want to talk about these things then at least learn what it is your are pontificating about. Is your view Arminian or Calvinist because I know your not Catholic?

Last chance, you want to talk theology then define your terms.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Scripture talks about how the Word of God is not taught by the wisdom of men. We are also told in His Word to study to show ourselves approved unto God, too.

Now, notice how you quickly pointed to scholars and their reasoning instead of addressing the synonyms for the word "perfect" in Scripture I shown you plainly. Please go back and read my post again carefully.

Oh and yes. I use BlueLetterBible all the time. I just take what they say with a grain of salt and not as fact every time. I also use the English dictionary many times, as well. I also look up the Etymology of English words in my studies sometimes, as well. So there is no need to insult me again.


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mark kennedy

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The Word of God is not taught by the wisdom of men.

Notice how you pointed to scholars and their reasoning instead of addressing the words in Scripture I shown you.

Oh and yes. I use BlueLetterBible all the time. I just take what they say with a grain of salt and not as fact every time. I also use the English dictionary many times, as well. I also look up the Etymology of English words in my studies sometimes, as well.


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So you don't need Christian scholarship, exegetical tools or a real understanding of what these words mean in the original. If you had bothered to learn what 'perfect' actually means in Matt. 5:48 you would have known that in that context it means, 'complete'. I've shown you that twice and you ignored it both times.
 
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So you don't need Christian scholarship, exegetical tools or a real understanding of what these words mean in the original. If you had bothered to learn what 'perfect' actually means in Matt. 5:48 you would have known that in that context it means, 'complete'. I've shown you that twice and you ignored it both times.

Well, I just told you I use these tools, but take them with a grain of salt. Men are not infallible. You are also ignoring the words "blameless" and "without blemish." They are saying the same thing as "perfect." But in your line of reasoning, you are saying they do not mean what they say plainly.


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mark kennedy

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Well, I just told you I use these tools, but take them with a grain of salt. Men are not infallible. You are also ignoring the words "blameless" and "without blemish." They are saying the same thing as "perfect." But in your line of reasoning, you are saying they do not mean what they say plainly.


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No I'm not and if you had bothered to read what I've been writing for you I'm showing how 'perfect' and 'without blemish' is related. Try actually reading post #210
 
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mark kennedy

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Define to me what being complete means? Use a real world example. Can a person sin and also be complete?

How is complete anything like the word "Perfect"?


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Perfect (G5056 - telos τέλος) Of the 45 times it's used in the NT, 35 times it's translated 'end'. It signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect." it is used of persons, "complete," conveying the idea of goodness without necessary reference to maturity or what is expressed under (a), Mat 5:48; 19:21; Jam 1:4 (2nd part); 3:2. It is used thus of God in Mat 5:48. (Vine’s Dictionary)​

Literally it means an 'end', the limit at which a thing ceases to be, the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose. Used to speak of God's eternal nature and divine attributes as they are communicated to the believer, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, in Christ.

I'm getting tired of this Jason. Perfect, complete, mature and without blemish are all the same thing.
 
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We must not judge him too harshly, he means well. Actually the word 'telos' is an important word in Greek philosophy. It's the idea of the end to which things are directed, in the context of Matthew 5 Jesus is talking about the communicable attributes of God.
I'm not judging at all.

I think it has more to do with if someone wants to teach then they should at least have looked at the Word through the Greek somewhat to be sure they themself understand the verses before they act as a Biblical authority teaching others. My issue is those who want to teach that haven't studied it well enough themselves to really understand.

Now in basic discussion, we all learn. My thinking is when someone has moved passed their own personal knowledge of scripture and want to teach others, but have not taken the time themselves to know.

My stance is don't teach then. It's really that simple.

So the point I wanted to make is that if we are going to 'rightly divide God's Word' then we all (including me) need to know the in's and out's of scripture and seek the fullest level of understanding that we have and can have at that particular time.

Too many people act as an authority on the Bible that don't have solid teaching for themselvs through a church and pastor who is Biblically knowledgable. Than it is like the blind leading the blind and I have found it is MUCH harder to change someone's incorrect theology, because people dig their heels in.

So then don't teach. Then build your own (or our own) Biblical knowledge on the subject. THere are lots of subjects I just share verses on that I don't think I have a good authoritive knowledge. I just draw that line for myself.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm not judging at all.

I was kind of kidding there, my point was he means well.

I think it has more to do with if someone wants to teach then they should at least have looked at the Word through the Greek somewhat to be sure they themself understand the verses before they act as a Biblical authority teaching others. My issue is those who want to teach that haven't studied it well enough themselves to really understand.

There is nothing I've studied quite like the Bible, two thousand years of scholarship have produced some awesome and readily available tools. When you study something like this I think it's important to anticipate learning something new. It's kind of why I do it, there is always something more to learn.

Now in basic discussion, we all learn. My thinking is when someone has moved passed their own personal knowledge of scripture and want to teach others, but have not taken the time themselves to know.

My stance is don't teach then. It's really that simple.

My feeling is, if you don't have the time or the patience for a simple exposition your not going to get systematic theology. Free style expositions with extensive cross references have their place, as devotional studies. When it comes to something more systematic like theology it requires another level of seriousness, a different frame of reference. My point is simply words have inherent meaning, if you don't get that with the definition in front of you theology will remain elusive.

So the point I wanted to make is that if we are going to 'rightly divide God's Word' then we all (including me) need to know the in's and out's of scripture and seek the fullest level of understanding that we have and can have at that particular time.

Agreed

Too many people act as an authority on the Bible that don't have solid teaching for themselvs through a church and pastor who is Biblically knowledgable. Than it is like the blind leading the blind and I have found it is MUCH harder to change someone's incorrect theology, because people dig their heels in.

That's if it's actually theology, and I'm not seeing a lot of theology in this thread. I think it's better to start with a couple of expositions and word searches before plumbing the depths of systematic theology. It gives you a better footing.

So then don't teach. Then build your own (or our own) Biblical knowledge on the subject. THere are lots of subjects I just share verses on that I don't think I have a good authoritive knowledge. I just draw that line for myself.
Of course we all have to draw that line sooner or later, one way or another. For me doctrine is essential, context controls and simplicity is the prize. It begins and ends, with the Scriptures, the New Testament witness and the Apostle's doctrine. That requires Biblical exposition with exegetical insights. Then and only then can you take on the depths of systematic theology.

In all these things we must never deviate from the simplicity of the gospel.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Perfect (G5056 - telos τέλος) Of the 45 times it's used in the NT, 35 times it's translated 'end'. It signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect." it is used of persons, "complete," conveying the idea of goodness without necessary reference to maturity or what is expressed under (a), Mat 5:48; 19:21; Jam 1:4 (2nd part); 3:2. It is used thus of God in Mat 5:48. (Vine’s Dictionary)​

Literally it means an 'end', the limit at which a thing ceases to be, the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose. Used to speak of God's eternal nature and divine attributes as they are communicated to the believer, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, in Christ.

I'm getting tired of this Jason. Perfect, complete, mature and without blemish are all the same thing.

But something can be complete and yet not perfect. I car can be complete in it's design in how the original manufacturer designed it to be, but the car my not be perfect. In fact, a house you buy may be complete to fit your Earthly needs, but it may not be perfect as say a mansion in heaven by comparison. The problem is that people are attempting to use a more foggy definition for the word "perfect" so as to cloak or hide something. They are not accepting the word at face value. It is like the mere mention of the word "perfect" is offensive to them. But that is the word that the Bible uses. Yes, I am aware that the word "perfect" can be defined as "complete" in one of the various definitions in the Dictionary. But this would not be true to the heart of conveying the truth of what "perfect" is really trying to say. A person can say that they are complete. But people have a funny idea of what complete means. They may think that they are complete in Christ if they just sin on occasion or just sin every once a week. But you really cannot do that when one says they are perfect in Christ.

Side Note:

Oh, and how exactly does the words "without blemish" in relation to the saints fit your belief that says that a carnal Christian can be saved? This is a contradiction. You started off running away from the word "perfect" and now you are arguing for a synonym for it? Your not making any sense, my friend.


...
 
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mark kennedy

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But something can be complete and yet not perfect. I car can be complete in it's design in how the original manufacturer designed it to be, but the car my not be perfect. In fact, a house you buy may be complete to fit your Earthly needs, but it may not be perfect as say a mansion in heaven by comparison. The problem is that people are attempting to use a more foggy definition for the word "perfect" so as to cloak or hide something. They are not accepting the word at face value. It is like the mere mention of the word "perfect" is offensive to them. But that is the word that the Bible uses. Yes, I am aware that the word "perfect" can be defined as "complete" in one of the various definitions in the Dictionary. But this would not be true to the heart of conveying the truth of what "perfect" is really trying to say. A person can say that they are complete. But people have a funny idea of what complete means. They may think that they are complete in Christ if they just sin on occasion or just sin every once a week. But you really cannot do that when one says they are perfect in Christ.

You have the definition in front of you. The word 'perfect' in Matt. 5:48 literally means "complete". The new nature is perfect, it is the righteousness of God in Christ.

Side Note:

Oh, and how exactly does the words "without blemish" in relation to the saints fit your belief that says that a carnal Christian can be saved? This is a contradiction. You started off running away from the word "perfect" and now you are arguing for a synonym for it? Your not making any sense, my friend.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth and here I go again done bothering with this.
 
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