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What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    But this is what I've been saying, and you disagreed, thus my question. Where in verse 1 is there anything regarding repentance? That is why it is the same as 1 John 1:7.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not sinning is the natural fruits of repentance.
    John the Baptist says bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
    Even you admit that 1 John 1:9 is talking about confessing serious sin to Jesus.
    Also, telling a believer to "sin not" is dealing with serious sin because that would be the most important goal and focus for their life because it deals with their salvation. The whole epistle deals with salvation and it does not deal with minor transgressions and faults.

    Nowhere is minor transgressions even hinted at within 1 John 1 or 1 John 2.
    A person has to put that into that text in order for it to say that.


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  3. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    According to 1 John 1:7 while walking in the light, what type of sins would one be committing if not minor infractions that the blood of Jesus automatically cleanses?
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Not true.

    Hebrews 8:7 says,
    "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

    Hebrews 9:17 says,
    "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

    The New Testament is sort of like a "will" (testament) that a person writes in the event of their untimely demise. It is a means of giving benefits to those who are alive in the event that they die. This "will" is not in force while they are alive. Nobody can collect on the benefits until they die (according to a standard family "will"). Jesus is the "testator." The New Testament is sort of like the "will" in giving benefits to those you love if you were to die. When Jesus was alive, the New Testament was not officially in effect yet. When He died, that is when the New Testament or New Covenant went into effect. It's why the temple veil was torn from top to bottom when Christ died. It was signified the end of the Old Covenant.

    Jesus said He came not to abolish the Law (i.e. all Law) but He came to fulfill it.
    This means that one of the reasons Jesus came was to bring the Law to it's final fulfillment or fruition by the commands given to us in the New Testament. They are laws or commands based primarily on love (i.e. moral laws) and not ordinances like: The ceremonial laws or the judicial laws. We can see this by simply looking at the changes in Scripture that Jesus was making with the Old Law.

    No governemnt or kingdom can survive without laws and the enforcement of those laws. For it is how order is kept. If people were to do whatever they like, then chaos and disorder would rule the land. So when people say that laws are not necessary in regards to our good standing within a kingdom, they do not understand the relationship of how important the keeping of one's own laws keeps one in good standing within their own country and how that relates to God's Kingdom. For why they think things operate differently in God's Kingdom is beyond me. In fact, God's standard of holiness is even higher. They are not impossible because we have Jesus to help transform our lives.

    I cannot imagine Jesus not keeping the Law perfectly on our behalf so as to fulfill it. Why? Well, Scripture says,

    "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).​

    The Passover was an ordinance. So while Scripture does not specifically state it, Jesus must have kept the Passover as prescribed in the Old Law (without Scripture recording that fact) and Jesus also kept the New Testament Last Supper Ordinance in addition to that during the Passover feast (Which is not a conflict or contradiction according to the Old Law). This has to be the conclusion otherwise Colossians 2:14 is in error. So why does Scripture leave out the fact that Jesus celebrated the Old Testament Passover? Because Jesus was to be our Passover Lamb. For that is the new purpose and focus of the entire New Testament.

    As for your mention of Exodus and sin:

    Well, the Exodus of God's people (Israel) symbolizes freedom from sin but it also lets us know that we have to later be faithful to God by believing in Him and His Word, otherwise we can be cut off because of unbelief just like the Israelites (See Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4).

    You said we can have freedom from sin and we can be slaves to righteousness, and yet you are also saying we have unredeemed flesh. This sounds like a contradiction to me. Either one is a slave to righteousness or one is a slave to sin. One cannot have it both ways. One is either set free from sin in that sin does not control their lives anymore or they are a slave to it's influences. For no man can serve two masters, for they will hate the one and love the other.

    God's people (Israel) perished in the wilderness because they complained and they wanted to go back to Egypt. They did not enter the Promised Land.

    So a believer can be set free, but they have to continue in God's goodness or they will be cut off (Romans 11:21).


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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You are making the verse say something that it does not say.
    It is merely talking about the truth of walking in the light of Christ.
    There is no mention of minor transgressions in 1 John 1:7.
    Yes, we know from other verses in Scripture that minor transgressions are no doubt covered by Christ's sacrifice, but that is not the topic of discussion in 1 John 1:7 or anywhere in John's 1st epistle. Simply stick to the facts or words presented to us in Scripture to guide you.


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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  6. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I am.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is simply not true.

    Scripture says,

    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.." (2 Corinthians 7:1).
    "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).
    "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).
    1 Pet 4:1 “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
    1 Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God” (1 Peter 4:1-2).
    “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)
    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
    Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).
    "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).
    "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
    “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).


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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (2 Corinthians 13:1).

    1 John 2:1 is loosely spoken elsewhere.

    14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16).

    24 "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
    25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:24-25).


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  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matthew 3:6).

    "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29).


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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  10. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If all things are done through Christ than our fruit is not ours but Christ's.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As I have said before, circumcision is a part of the Old Law or Old Covenant, and it is not a part of the New Testament Laws or Commands under the New Covenant. This is obvious by the fact that Paul says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). We again, see that circumcision was not commanded to believers under the New Covenant; For this very fact was stated at the Jerusalem council gathering of believers as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 15:5-21. This is one of the many reasons that prove that Paul was talking about the Old Law when speaking of the Law generically like: "not being under the Law" etc.; And Paul was not referring how we are not under no laws whatsoever in regards to our salvation. How so? Because Paul many times said that nobody can commit certain sins and still be saved. Such sins would be: murder, coveting, theft, idolatry, and committing adultery, etc.; For Paul says, they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21) (Colossians 3:5-6) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Ephesians 5:3-7).

    As for the Geniltes purifying themselves through faith:

    As I stated before, the faith that the Bible describes involves works.
    For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
    A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God (Which is a free gift).

    As for Galatians 5:12-15: You have to keep reading. For it says,

    16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
    (Galatians 5:16-24).

    Again, you have to understand that the Law is lawful, if one uses it lawfully (1 TImothy 1:8).
    Meaning one can obey certain laws in the Old Covenant if it only aligns with the Laws or Commands in the New Testament; But generally the reference to obeying the Old Covenant Law was condemend because they did not want others following the Old Law as a whole package deal. For we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. This does not mean many of God's eternal moral laws have been abrogated. God's eternal moral laws for man have always remained the same and are unchanged. For example: Siblings sleeping with one of their parents has always been morally wrong and a serious sin. We see this sin condemned in the "Story of Noah and Ham" (see this thread here to learn more); And in the "Epilogue Story of Lot and his Two Daughters" (long before the receiving of the written Law said it was wrong).


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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    dead faith is not the same as faith without works.

    Faith when we are saved is not qualified by anything except faith. Now your adding your own theology to it.

    The Bible doesn't qualify faith as you have.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).


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  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As for Sanctification:

    Jesus does the good work within a believer; For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So there is no such thing as Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism because it is the Lord that ultimately does the good work through our lives (When we surrender to Him).

    We are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ, so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14).


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  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And ....

    Where does the Bible show that this looses salvation.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,..." (Hebrews 11:6).

    A lack of faith is unbelief.

    "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12).

    James says,
    21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).


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  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24 (of Paul recounting his experience in struggling to keep the Law without Jesus when he was a Pharisee).

    In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. However, this verse makes no sense from the perspective of a Christian saying that. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. Again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24 (Where Paul recounts his past struggle with sin while under the Old Law as Pharisee).

    As for Paul's theme within the various chapters in Romans:

    Paul makes the point in Romans 6, that just because we are not under the Old Law we cannot continue in sin (i.e. the breaking of God's eternal moral laws) (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:3-7, Colossians 3:5-6). Paul also says we cannot continue in sin so that grace may abound, either. So grace does not involves a license to sin in any way. Titus 2:11-12 says that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live soberly, Godly, and righteously in this present world. Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud, and they know nothing. James 4:6 says, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

    Romans 8:3-4 makes it clear that as a part of God's saving grace we also walk after the Spirit and we fulfill that righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (i.e. to our neighbor, or the moral law - See Romans 13:8-10). For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Romans 8:6).

    "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

    Do you believe that the saint should mortify the deeds of the body so as to live?
    Do you believe that if one lives after the flesh, they will die?


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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, one is either a slave to sin or they are a slave to righteousness.
    A person cannot serve two masters.
    This is not consistent with your saying before that believer can be carnal and still be saved.

    Romans 6 says,

    “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    "But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

    "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

    As for the written account of the struggle of sin mentioned In Romans 7:7-8:

    Yes, Romans 7:7-8 is true. If one struggles to keep the Law without Jesus or God, then one will have a hard time in keeping the Law (Hence, why we read in Romans 7:7-8 that says, "the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence").

    In the part of verse 7 (on after) that says, "I had not known sin, but by the law:" and the 1st half of verse 8 (Romans 7:7(b) and Romans 7:8(a)):

    Paul is speaking in part as a Pharisee who is struggling to keep the Law without Jesus yet. For all manner of covetous desires will be brought forth in a person by the command that says "Thou shalt not covet" if they try to obey this Law without Jesus. Paul is also talking in part as an Israelite receiving the written commandments of God for the first time and how sin took advantage of the existence of these written commandments.​

    In the 2nd half of verse 8 that says "For without the law sin was dead." on through verse 12 (Romans 7:8(b) to Romans 7:12) (Romans 7:8-12):

    Paul is primarily speaking as an Israelite receiving the Law for the first time (all the way back in Exodus).​

    In the 1st half of verse 13 (Romans 7:13(a)) that says, "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good;":

    Paul is speaking as a Pharisee.​

    In the 2nd half of verse 13 (Romans 7:13(b)) that says, "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.":

    Paul is in part speaking as an Israelite in receiving the Law; And Paul is also speaking in part of his own experience in trying to keep the Law without Jesus.​

    In verses 14-24 (Romans 7:14-24):

    Paul (Saul) was recounting his personal struggle with keeping the Law as Pharisee. He was trying to obey the Law without having Jesus Christ within his life yet; He did not have Jesus in his life yet as a Pharisee to overcome such sins. For have you never heard of people instantly losing their addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, and oher worldly sinful vices when they have first accepted Christ as their Savior?​

    In verse 25 (Romans 7:25):

    Paul is now speaking as a Christian again and thanking Jesus that he has been delivered from his body of sin and death (i.e. his struggle with sin). For we are told to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14). We are told in 2 Corinthians 7:1 to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Romans 8:1 says we have to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (in Christ Jesus) so as not to be under the Condemnation. If one is constantly struggling with sin, they are clearly not walking after the Spirit. For Galatians 5:16 says, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."​

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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  19. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your testimony. It is a superstrong reminder to listen to the Lord and also a reminder of His unfailing grace which overcomes our failures.
     
  20. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Still doesn't answer the question or support your earlier claims.

    I take that to mean you have no supporting scripture since you are avoiding directly answering
     
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