What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

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Here are the sixteen whole verses that are added to the King James Version:
  1. Matthew 17:21: "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."
  2. Matthew 18:11: "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
  3. Matthew 23:14: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation."
  4. Mark 7:16: "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."
  5. Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
  6. Mark 9:46: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
  7. Mark 11:26: "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
  8. Mark 15:28: "And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors."
  9. Luke 17:36: "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
  10. John 5:4: "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had."
  11. Acts of the Apostles 8:37: "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
  12. Acts of the Apostles 15:34: "Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still."
  13. Acts of the Apostles 24:7: "But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,"
  14. Acts of the Apostles 28:29: "And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."
  15. Romans 16:24: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
  16. 1 John 5:7 KJV: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
 
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Hammster

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To all:

Older does not mean better. As I said before, a pagan king can write a pagan document that has false religious ideas in it which is older than the New Testament. It does not mean the document is more reliable or trustworthy just because it is older.
False dichotomy. That’s an apples to oranges comparison.
 
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To all:

Older does not mean better. As I said before, a pagan king can write a pagan document that has false religious ideas in it which is older than the New Testament. It does not mean the document is more reliable or trustworthy just because it is older.
I guess this could be said about the KJV vs NASB. ;)
 
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To all:

Some may say that the list of verses that are eliminated from the King James Bible are actually additions to the Bible. This is silly. For example: Take 1 John 5:7. Arianism originates from Alexandria Egypt (Note: Just do a Google search). The supposedly better and older manuscripts (that the Critical Text is based upon) is also from Alexandria Egypt. So it is kind of strange that the one verse that defends of the Trinity in the Bible is removed. For 1 John 5:7 is the ONLY verse in the Bible that explicitly teaches the Trinity (i.e. the three are one). Unless one is an Anti-Trinitarian or into Arianism, then they should defend the Alexandrian Egyptian manuscripts (Which is were Arianism also originates). I do not see it as a coincidence that the removal of 1 John 5:7 in Alexandria Egypt manuscripts just so happens to be the same place of origin of Arianism (i.e. Alexandria, Egypt).
 
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If Rick was on a deserted island, and he knew nothing of the Trinity or Christianity, his chances of knowing about the Trinity is far better if he had 1 John 5:7 in his Bible (like the KJB has). This shows the superiority of the text itself.
 
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If Rick was on a deserted island, and he knew nothing of the Trinity or Christianity, his chances of knowing about the Trinity is far better if he had 1 John 5:7 in his Bible (like the KJB has). This shows the superiority of the text itself.
That’s pragmatism.
 
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Let’s get back to the topic. And let me see if I can explain my the KJV renewing of Romans 8:1 is faulty.

It starts off “Therefore”. This means that we need to see what what written before so that we can understand where Paul is going. And to do this, we really should go back to 1:1, but I think going back to 4:1 is an easier bite to swallow.

This is where Paul really starts discussing being saved by faith alone (my view) versus being saved by obedience along (BH’s) view. Paul goes through great lengths to show how it’s faith and faith alone that saved.


For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
— Romans 4:2

BH would have you to believe that we are justified by works, but that goes against what Paul is teaching. He continues:


For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

Was Abraham made righteous by what he did, or what he believed? It’s quite clear that he was made righteous by faith. Then Paul, not wanting to use just Abraham (though he could) quotes David.


But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:5-8

Here’s the first indication that if we are in Christ, we are not condemned, and it’s apart from works.

I’m going to jump to 5:1 for the reason of brevity. The rest of chapter four explains the first part, and you can read for yourself.


Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
— Romans 5:1

If you’ve been justified, you have peace with the Father through the Son. You aren’t sorta made righteous. You are righteous in God’s eyes. You have peace with the Father. And good Fathers don’t abandon their children if they sin. That’s not being a good father.

Oh, and we are saved from His wrath.


Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
— Romans 5:9

BH would have you to believe that there are hoops to jump through to make this happen. But that’s not how Fatherhood works.


For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:10

We are reconciled. We aren’t being reconciled, as BH must believe. But we are reconciled. Done deal.

Then Paul goes on to compare and contrast us being in Adam vs us being in Christ. He shows the superiority of being in Christ.

Here’s the summation:


For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
— Romans 5:19-21

The more we sin, the more grace there is. That’s foreign to what BH is trying to teach.

But, but, but...does that mean we have license to sin? Let’s see.


What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
— Romans 6:1-2

That’s a very strong NO! from Paul. We are to be putting sin to death in our mortal bodies. We are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to righteousness.


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
— Romans 6:15-18

We are freed from sin. We are not under law (the BH view) but under grace (the Bible’s view). What does Paul say about the law?


Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
— Romans 7:1-6

We are no longer under the law. And


for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
— Romans 4:15

So when you get to 8:1, the KJV rendering does not make sense taking into consideration what Paul has spent four chapters explaining. Anyway, there’s a good chance that you’ll soon get a long list of verses that will try to show how salvation can be lost. But just check each one and see if they hold up in context.
 
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I believe you can live a nearly perfect life by the spirit, but it seems like if you strive to live an almost perfect life during your life would it not be miserable through out it somewhat?

At least that what it seems like. Anyone else have any takes on this? Sinless perfection?

Please check out the verses in the beginning of this post. God tells us to be perfect. But men do not like everything that is written in God's Word, and so they seek to change what God's Word says.

As for being miserable by living a perfect life: Well, I see the exact opposite of that. The things of this world and it's sinful ways do not permanently satisfy. It is only God that truly satisfies and can give a lasting peace, comfort, and joy. It is the true rest in this life. Resting in Christ Jesus (the Creator, and Savior).

Many quote the Scriptures out of context to defend a sin and still be saved type of belief. They quote Paul when he references the word “law” or “works” generically, and they say that he is referring to all of God's laws (Including the commands of Jesus). However, in reality, Paul was referring to the 613 Old Testament Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal that is no more. Yes, certain laws have been repeated in the New Testament (or New Covenant) (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.), but we are under a New Covenant with New Commands. We are not under the Law of Moses. We do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, the Passover, the dietary laws, the laws on animal sacrifices, etc.; We look primarily to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the pages of the New Testament to obey God today and we are not looking to be justified by the Law of Moses.

“...ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).

Paul also argued against “Works Alone Salvationism” (That did not include God's grace) because he was fighting against the heresy of what I call: “Circumcision Salvationism.” See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. “Circumicision Salvationism” was the false belief that was being pushed during Paul's time that said that you had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. Certain Jews were trying to deceive Christians into buying into this belief. These Jews wanted them to also keep the Law of Moses. If you were to read the Jerusalem council, this heresy is addressed (See Acts of the Apostles 15). Paul also addresses this heresy and says if you seek to be circumcised Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). For if a Christian were to hold to this false belief, they would be making circumcision the basis for their salvation instead of God's grace through faith in Christ. Cirucmision is a part of the Old Law, and not the commands given to us by Christ, and His followers. So if a person believed they had to first be circumcised to be saved, they would be making the Law the foundation of their salvation; Thus, it would be “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace) as the basis for their salvation (Which is wrong).
 
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@Agallagher

Some bring up 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to justify that they can sin and still be saved on some level.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.
 
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@Agallagher

Some have suggested that we cannot be God, and so thus being perfect before God is not attainable. While it is true that we cannot be God, what they fail to understand is that God lives inside us, and He is the One who can help us to live perfectly. It is not something that we can take glory for ourselves. We are to merely cooperate with God and the good work He wants to do through us.
 
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Some quote Justification verses in attempt to undermine the Sanctificaton Process we must all enter into and maintain until our deaths. Also, Sinless Perfection is not exactly a salvation issue. While Sinless Perfection does include putting away mortal sin, it is more about putting away non-mortal sins out of your life (Note: Non-mortal sin is any sin that does not lead to spiritual death; For example of a non-mortal sin, check out the first half of Matthew 5:22, and compare it with the mortal sin mentioned last in Matthew 5:22).

Anyways, for clarity of the truth, it must be noted that the Bible mentions 4 different aspects of salvation (of which many many confuse so as to undermine a proper view of either Soteriology or the teaching on “Sinless Perfection” - which is not a salvation issue).

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.
 
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I believe you can live a nearly perfect life by the spirit, but it seems like if you strive to live an almost perfect life during your life would it not be miserable through out it somewhat?

At least that what it seems like. Anyone else have any takes on this? Sinless perfection?

I replied to you in this thread because your thread is in a section of the forums which does not allow for discussion of Sinless Perfection.
 
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Some quote Justification verses in attempt to undermine the Sanctificaton Process we must all enter into and maintain until our deaths. Also, Sinless Perfection is not exactly a salvation issue. While Sinless Perfection does include putting away mortal sin, it is more about putting away non-mortal sins out of your life (Note: Non-mortal sin is any sin that does not lead to spiritual death; For example of a non-mortal sin, check out the first half of Matthew 5:22, and compare it with the mortal sin mentioned last in Matthew 5:22).

Anyways, for clarity of the truth, it must be noted that the Bible mentions 4 different aspects of salvation (of which many many confuse so as to undermine a proper view of either Soteriology or the teaching on “Sinless Perfection” - which is not a salvation issue).

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

We must be careful how we hear or say we hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches or denominations.

Philippians 1;6 informs us if God has begun His good work of salvation he will finish it to the end .Our last day. He alone is our confidence. . we put no confidence in dead corrupted flesh and blood.

I would offer. Salivation is not a offer but is a finished work that works in us that we might do his good pleasure. .Christ's three day labor of love is not without the works required to pay the wage of Sin. (Faith is a work) it satisficed the just demands of the letter of the law. . . death.

Faithless mankind being dead in there trespasses and sin renders us powerless to hear or move to believe. . we have the treasure (power to believe) but is clearly not of us who are dead in our trespasses and sins in any way shape or form.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

God who is not a man as us is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases .In that way he works in us with us performing that which is appointed to us.

It is Christ alone who makes our new hearts soft so the we can rest in our good works we offer towards his power . We should believe without murmuring like that of Jonas who wanted to die knowing when he preached the gospel he was sent with that God who complete the work .Many new believers where given the treasure of faith
 
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We must be careful how we hear or say we hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches or denominations.

Philippians 1;6 informs us if God has begun His good work of salvation he will finish it to the end .Our last day. He alone is our confidence. . we put no confidence in dead corrupted flesh and blood.

I would offer. Salivation is not a offer but is a finished work that works in us that we might do his good pleasure. .Christ's three day labor of love is not without the works required to pay the wage of Sin. (Faith is a work) it satisficed the just demands of the letter of the law. . . death.

Faithless mankind being dead in there trespasses and sin renders us powerless to hear or move to believe. . we have the treasure (power to believe) but is clearly not of us who are dead in our trespasses and sins in any way shape or form.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

God who is not a man as us is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases .In that way he works in us with us performing that which is appointed to us.

It is Christ alone who makes our new hearts soft so the we can rest in our good works we offer towards his power . We should believe without murmuring like that of Jonas who wanted to die knowing when he preached the gospel he was sent with that God who complete the work .Many new believers where given the treasure of faith

Do you believe in Calvinism?
 
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We must be careful how we hear or say we hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches or denominations.

Philippians 1;6 informs us if God has begun His good work of salvation he will finish it to the end .Our last day. He alone is our confidence. . we put no confidence in dead corrupted flesh and blood.

I would offer. Salivation is not a offer but is a finished work that works in us that we might do his good pleasure. .Christ's three day labor of love is not without the works required to pay the wage of Sin. (Faith is a work) it satisficed the just demands of the letter of the law. . . death.

Faithless mankind being dead in there trespasses and sin renders us powerless to hear or move to believe. . we have the treasure (power to believe) but is clearly not of us who are dead in our trespasses and sins in any way shape or form.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

God who is not a man as us is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases .In that way he works in us with us performing that which is appointed to us.

It is Christ alone who makes our new hearts soft so the we can rest in our good works we offer towards his power . We should believe without murmuring like that of Jonas who wanted to die knowing when he preached the gospel he was sent with that God who complete the work .Many new believers where given the treasure of faith

I believe God does the good work through us in Sanctification and we cannot glory in any good work we do or in living holy. Do you believe Sanctification is a part of the salvation process? If not, then that means you are for the opposite position. Meaning, somebody can not enter the Sanctification Process and still be saved. In other words, they can sin and still be saved. Is this the kind of belief that you hold to, dear sir?
 
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Eilat

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Sinless perfection is found for eternity, by being "in Christ".
This is the eternal standing of all the born again : as "ONE with God and Christ."
The born again, are born into God's Spirit, and there is no sin found in there.
The born again, are "made Righteous", they are "the Righteousness of God, in Christ", and there is no sin found there..

But then....

You have "discipleship".....and that is a place where you the born again, are "working out your salvation". And this means that you have salvation, and you are learning how to work it out......to exist in it correctly, by understanding it correctly.
Most dont, and they will never be perfected.
But, if you get there, that is how you are perfected....as its by the understanding of how to operate within the Kingdom of God, correctly, in your faith, within your believing, : that is your PERFECTION.
 
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Sinless perfection is found for eternity, by being "in Christ".
This is the eternal standing of all the born again : as "ONE with God and Christ."
The born again, are born into God's Spirit, and there is no sin found in there.
The born again, are "made Righteous", they are "the Righteousness of God, in Christ", and there is no sin found there..

But then....

You have "discipleship".....and that is a place where you the born again, are "working out your salvation". And this means that you have salvation, and you are learning how to work it out......to exist in it correctly, by understanding it correctly.
Most dont, and they will never be perfected.
But, if you get there, that is how you are perfected....as its by the understanding of how to operate within the Kingdom of God, correctly, in your faith, within your believing, : that is your PERFECTION.

I believe that what you describe here sounds a lot like the Dual Nature Theology.
If what you are describing is in fact this belief, I believe the Dual Nature Theology is a false and unbiblical teaching.

Dual Nature Theology: The doctrinal belief or position that there are two natures within a converted Christian. A fleshly/sinful nature and a spiritual/godly nature operating simultaneously, all the time, until a later, complete transformation occurs in heaven.​

Biblical proof as to why it is false? Just read 2 Corinthians 7:1. It says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Luke 6:43-45 says,
“For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.”
 
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garee

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I believe that what you describe here sounds a lot like the Dual Nature Theology.
If what you are describing is in fact this belief, I believe the Dual Nature Theology is a false and unbiblical teaching.

Dual Nature Theology: The doctrinal belief or position that there are two natures within a converted Christian. A fleshly/sinful nature and a spiritual/godly nature operating simultaneously, all the time, until a later, complete transformation occurs in heaven.​

Biblical proof as to why it is false? Just read 2 Corinthians 7:1. It says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Luke 6:43-45 says,
“For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.”

I would say according to our first beginning or nature (born of mankind) we previously lived in flesh and blood bodies of death carrying out the wage of sin death. Therefore having no faith as it is written that could please God the author and finisher or perfecter as one who makes things completely . .

If he our confidence has begun his good work of salvation in us with us being yoked with Christ we have a living hope of being raised on the last day .Again he is our confidence we put no confidence in the temporal things seen (flesh and blood) . In that way we receive the perfect(complete) from the first beginning. . our first love, , hearing God not seen through his one work of faith as it is written .In that way our savior is the alpha and omega.

The old testament saints looked ahead to the cross we look back by the same faith as it is written.

1 Peter 1:9 -11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 
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I would say according to our first beginning or nature (born of mankind) we previously lived in flesh and blood bodies of death carrying out the wage of sin death. Therefore having no faith as it is written that could please God the author and finisher or perfecter as one who makes things completely . .

If he our confidence has begun his good work of salvation in us with us being yoked with Christ we have a living hope of being raised on the last day .Again he is our confidence we put no confidence in the temporal things seen (flesh and blood) . In that way we receive the perfect(complete) from the first beginning. . our first love, , hearing God not seen through his one work of faith as it is written .In that way our savior is the alpha and omega.

The old testament saints looked ahead to the cross we look back by the same faith as it is written.

1 Peter 1:9 -11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Do you believe that a Christian can abide in mortal sin (like hate, lying, lusting after another, etc.), and still be saved while doing so? Yes, or no?

You also did not answer my question before. Do you believe in Calvinism?
 
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I believe that what you describe here sounds a lot like the Dual Nature Theology.

I think that, there is some confusion about what you are talking about.

For example....Paul says we are to "reckon our old man dead"....and we are to understand that our old man is "crucified with Christ".....
The born again, are to perceive it this way, MENTALLY.... because it is true.....yet, if it was not still alive, Paul would not need to tell us what to do with it..

So, its not a "duel nature" issue, its a duel MIND issue, or a ruined faith issue.

There is the "mind of the flesh", and there is " the mind of Christ"
To "renew your mind" is to keep yourself out of the Carnal mind, which is the mind of the Flesh.

There is the "incorruptible" part of us, the born again Spirit, that has been "circumcised" from the Flesh, according to Colossians.
So that is our Born again Spirit that has been parted, separated, circumcised FROM, the "old man"...who is to be "reckoned dead", who was "crucified with Christ".. is to be understood as we are become by spiritual birth... "A new Creation IN Christ".

Now here is deeper theology.....

There is this situation called the "dominion of the law"....and there is the fact that ""the power of sin...is the LAW".
If you are trying to keep yourself saved by commandment keeping and Law keeping, then the power of the Law will empower you to sin more.
And that is how you ruin your Christianity.
You do it by "falling from Grace", which is what we are talking about.... and that simply means to become convinced that you can lose your salvation. And if you have that mind, then Paul says you are "bewitched, and in the Flesh".
And once you have entered and are trapped inside that wrong mind, then Grace has no more ability to empower you to walk in the Spirit.
So..... by that situation in the mind subverting your faith, that is a stronghold, the Law's dominion takes over and produces a sinning and repenting and confessing, lifestyle, as this person's "christianity".
This Christian will live in that, till they deal with that theological stronghold that has ruined/corrupted their Faith.
Most never do who have entered that spiritual darkness. Most stay there for the rest of their life.

So, while the 2 nature theology is its own idea....., its always true that you can be "double minded", and once you become this regarding your faith, then "sin consciousness" is empowered by the Law's dominion and you end up powerless to stop sinning, as the law's dominion will keep activating your sin consciousness that will cause you to keep doing it.
 
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