What does all mean?

[public hermit]

Gregory of Nyssa on the fires of hell as purging evil from the soul:

"He is only claiming and drawing to Himself whatever, to please Him, came into existence. But while He for a noble end is attracting the soul to Himself, the Fountain of all Blessedness, it is the occasion necessarily to the being so attracted of a state of torture. Just as those who refine gold from the dross which it contains not only get this base alloy to melt in the fire, but are obliged to melt the pure gold along with the alloy, and then while this last is being consumed the gold remains, so, while evil is being consumed in the purgatorial fire, the soul that is welded to this evil must inevitably be in the fire too, until the spurious material alloy is consumed and annihilated by this fire... Then it seems, I said, that it is not punishment chiefly and principally that the Deity, as Judge, afflicts sinners with; but He operates, as your argument has shown, only to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." (On the Soul and Resurrection)-By the way, in this quote from Gregory is speaking to his sister Macrina who is on her death bed.

So, Nyssa does not reject hell. He sees the fire of hell as the pure love of God purging the sinner. I think the response that this makes the cross of Christ unnecessary is an important point. However, it should be remembered that for many of these early Christians the point of the cross was ontological (saves us from destruction) and not simply moral (saves us from sinfulness). So, life is secured through Christ, but the one who does not submit to the will of Christ and embrace his moral standard must be purged.

Again, I'm not trying to sell this idea. Just trying to insert some nuance into the discussion.

 

[renniks]

Dear Ren: I will bet on my favorite wife's life that you will not be able to see a difference.

As Teddy Ruxpin would say, somethings not quite right

Not sure what you mean?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Gregory of Nyssa on the fires of hell as purging evil from the soul:

"He is only claiming and drawing to Himself whatever, to please Him, came into existence. But while He for a noble end is attracting the soul to Himself, the Fountain of all Blessedness, it is the occasion necessarily to the being so attracted of a state of torture. Just as those who refine gold from the dross which it contains not only get this base alloy to melt in the fire, but are obliged to melt the pure gold along with the alloy, and then while this last is being consumed the gold remains, so, while evil is being consumed in the purgatorial fire, the soul that is welded to this evil must inevitably be in the fire too, until the spurious material alloy is consumed and annihilated by this fire... Then it seems, I said, that it is not punishment chiefly and principally that the Deity, as Judge, afflicts sinners with; but He operates, as your argument has shown, only to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." (On the Soul and Resurrection)-By the way, in this quote from Gregory is speaking to his sister Macrina who is on her death bed.

So, Nyssa does not reject hell. He sees the fire of hell as the pure love of God purging the sinner. I think the response that this makes the cross of Christ unnecessary is an important point. However, it should be remembered that for many of these early Christians the point of the cross was ontological (saves us from destruction) and not simply moral (saves us from sinfulness). So, life is secured through Christ, but the one who does not submit to the will of Christ and embrace his moral standard must be purged.

Again, I'm not trying to sell this idea. Just trying to insert some nuance into the discussion.

God depicts Himself in His Word, as a Refiner...and even as Soap.

 

[renniks]

There seems to be this assumption that the concept of hell must be either all or nothing. Either hell is eternal or all people go to heaven. Among some early, Greek speaking Christians there was a third possibility, i.e. that hell is redemptive. This was based on the notion of redemption as epektasis. Gregory of Nyssa would be one who seemed to embrace this idea.

I'm not necessarily promoting one or the other, or the other. But, if we're going to have fifty threads on this, maybe it would help to explore that third possibility as well.

How is that different from universalism? And more importantly where in scripture is it found? It's been my experience that people really have to stretch the plain meaning of scripture to get there.

 

[public hermit]

How is that different from universalism? And more importantly where in scripture is it found? It's been my experience that people really have to stretch the plain meaning of scripture to get there.

Some, maybe yourself, assume that universalism means everybody simply goes to heaven. That is not what Gregory is saying. In order to enter into the divine presence, you must be ready. Some universalist simply deny there is a hell. Nyssa is not denying hell. He is saying the experience of the fire of God's love will be experienced as hell to those who are not prepared. "Hell" is the fire of God's love burning away all that is not of God. So, yes there is a difference.

The question about the scriptures that you ask is an important one. Greek speaking Christians, especially those who knew Greek philosophy, would not necessarily read the word we find translated "eternal" as eternal. They knew that was not the philosophers' word for eternal. Why did that matter? Well, because the concept we have of eternal comes from those same Greek philosophers. We understand eternal as to be outside of time, or at least without beginning or end. Hell, if it is anything, is not eternal. Only God is eternal. Maybe hell is everlasting, but it cannot be eternal. So, They would have read that word as "age" or "eon." Interestingly, in some places in the scriptures that word is translated "eternal" and in others it is translated "age." So, what's up with that? There is a lot online about the debate over the translation of "eternal" vs. "age." You can find plenty if you want to look into it.

There are so many passages we could discuss. Instead, if you are really interested I will suggest a great resource by Keith DeRose. Keith is a Christian philosopher at Yale and he has written a helpful paper on Universalism and the scriptures:

Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
No.

It means that only Jesus Christ IS the Foundation, and no man can lay another "Foundation".

Oy - that is what I have been trying to say to you. Now you get it.

I posted the same thing i posted previously.

The post that you disputed.

 

[public hermit]

Greek speaking Christians, especially those who knew Greek philosophy, would not necessarily read the word we find translated "eternal" as eternal.

If anyone is interested in the word aion that is sometimes translated as "eternal' and at other times translated as "age" or "eon" there is a great resource online at Tentmaker Ministry. It is a free resource and a thorough study of the word aion

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

 

[renniks]

"Hell" is the fire of God's love burning away all that is not of God.

If that were the case, everyone would have to go to hell. And that is actually purgatory, sort of the way CS Lewis saw it in the Great Divorce. This idea that eventually one could get to the place where he was purged enough to be able to walk in heaven's reality.

 

[public hermit]

If that were the case, everyone would have to go to hell. And that is actually purgatory, sort of the way CS Lewis saw it in the Great Divorce. This idea that eventually one could get to the place where he was purged enough to be able to walk in heaven's reality.

Yeah, great point. One possible response might be that those in Christ are exempted from the purifying fire. That's the advantage of faith in Christ.

I'm pretty confident that no one is just going to waltz into the presence of God without being made ready. God cannot abide by sin. Somehow we must be made ready for that moment. So, maybe one response to your question would be: those who trust in Christ are purified by his sacrifice. Those who don't must go through the fire.

Again, I'm not promoting one or the other. As long as I have been looking at this, I still can't give definitive answers as some may do. I believe there is a hell. Is it a purifying fire or a punishing fire? I don't know. And to be honest, I have no plans on finding out because I have placed my trust wholly in the resurrected Jesus Christ.

 

[renniks]

I'm pretty confident that no one is just going to waltz into the presence of God without being made ready. God cannot abide by sin. Somehow we must be made ready for that moment. So, maybe one response to your question would be: those who trust in Christ are purified by his sacrifice. Those who don't must go through the fire.

Well that's pretty much standard Protestant theology. We are justified by being in Christ, so that God sees us as though we are him. If I remember correctly, Lewis, in his work of fiction, did not assume everyone would finally make it into glory, because most would still refuse to give up thier selfishness. I have doubts that a unrepentant person in this life becomes repentant in the next even if it were possible.

 

[public hermit]

If I remember correctly, Lewis, in his work of fiction, did not assume everyone would finally make it into glory

I think that's right. He seemed to argue that it was possible, but few, if any would do so. It's been a long time since I've read The Great Divorce.

 

[Yahkov]

Oh Brinny.
Okay, how about the atheist war hero who gives his life singlehandedly holding back the enemy to allow time for the women and children to escape to safety.
Is he hellbound?

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." - John 3:18

You tell me.

 

[Yahkov]

So hell for you could be populated with the heroes and victims of this life. Guess that's where I'll be then, either by choice or default.

Hell is populated by those who have rejected Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter what heroic act they did or what they were victims of.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

 

[FineLinen]

Hell is populated by those who have rejected Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter what heroic act they did or what they were victims of.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

Dear Yahkov: The vast, vast majority have never met Jesus Christ in order to reject Him. Some are so broken in mind or body, or both, accepting or rejecting anything is in the realm of non existent. Many millions worldwide never reach the age of five (5). How is our Father's gracious love and mercy extended to them?

Under-five mortality

4.5 million= 85,935 per week

12,776 per day

532 per hour

 

[Not David]

@Chadrho You know Greeks believe in an eternal hell, right?

 

[public hermit]

@Chadrho You know Greeks believe in an eternal hell, right?

Modern Greeks, sure. Not all ancient Greeks.

 

[Not David]

Modern Greeks, sure. Not all ancient Greeks.

Not all ancient Greeks believed in the Trinity. That does not mean they were right.

 

[Yahkov]

Dear Yahkov: The vast, vast majority have never met Jesus Christ in order to reject Him. Some are so broken in mind or body, or both, accepting or rejecting anything is in the realm of non existent. Many millions worldwide never reach the age of five (5). How is our Father's gracious love and mercy extended to them?

Under-five mortality

The question raised that I responded to was a 15 year old rape victim rejecting God and an atheist war hero.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." - Romans 1:18-20

"For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." - Romans 2:12-16

Perhaps these may help with your question. I wholeheartedly believe when people seek God, God reveals Himself to them, not that they persuaded God. God has already revealed his eternal power and divine nature since the beginning of creation.

 

[FineLinen]

@Chadrho You know Greeks believe in an eternal hell, right?

You know there is no such thing as an "eternal" hell?

Death and all four hells are consummated in the Lake of Theos!

 

[public hermit]

Not all ancient Greeks believed in the Trinity. That does not mean they were right.

if you've been following this thread then you know I haven't been making the argument that they were right. I'm just putting it out there. It's a discussion. It helps to have various points of view. That's all.