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What Does Aionios Mean in Matthew 25:46 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9? (part 1)

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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An unsupported opinion. Also beliefs can change in 100's of years. Show me proof of what ALL Jews believed c. 30 AD, i.e. at the time of Christ. Otherwise, if you can't PROVE that, then maybe you should stick with the inspired Scriptures rather than myths & horror flick fables. That's what Jesus did.
How many times must I answer this absurd accusation? My quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud and Encyclopedia begins with a statement that in the same way there were different factions in Judaism, e.g. Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Essenes etc. there were different views on the after life.. About as ridiculous as if I had asked you to show me where all the Jews and the entire early church believed UR.
.....Not unsupported opinion.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Your opinion about the dating is irrelevant.
 
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ClementofA

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How many times must I answer this absurd accusation? My quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud and Encyclopedia begins with a statement that in the same way there were different factions in Judaism, e.g. Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, Essenes etc. there were different views on the after life.. About as ridiculous as if I had asked you to show me where all the Jews and the entire early church believed UR.
.....Not unsupported opinion.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Your opinion about the dating is irrelevant.

What does this quote have to do with the original topic?

What is the exact date it was written. Please provide proof.

What do you think it proves?


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
 
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ClementofA

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To all:

The Universalist render the death of Christ unnecessary by their attempt to say God can show an act of kindness towards those under His wrath in hell and the lake of fire.

False. You remind me of this thread:

A typical Damnationist who has no clue re universalism

If God could save one soul from sin by a mere act of his kindness and ignore his holy justice against sin, then he could save all by such an act. Then the death of Christ was not needed.

Strawman. Universalism does not say that.

One of the main errors in universalism is the lack of understanding of God's true nature and holiness. A lack of understanding of His justice and wrath against sin.

You've provided no evidence here that what you state is true.

You've also provided no elaboration showing that you yourself understand the subject you describe.

What of God's justice, holiness & wrath requires that His love expire like a carton of milk at the time of death for those who die in sin?

Speaking of "God's true nature" you left out what He IS: LOVE.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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LoveofTruth

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What of God's justice, holiness & wrath requires that His love expire like a carton of milk at the time of death for those who die in sin?
sorry to say you have the weakest arguments

His love doesn't expire. But His love is only upon the believers. His wrath is upon the lost. His love doesn't expire towards the saints forever just as His wrath doesn't expire and is always upon the lost sinner forever. Neither His love or wrath expire.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
 
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ClementofA

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sorry to say you have the weakest arguments

That was not an argument, but a question:

What of God's justice, holiness & wrath requires that His love expire like a carton of milk at the time of death for those who die in sin?

His love doesn't expire. But His love is only upon the believers.

So why does His love expire like a carton of milk at the time of death for those who die in sin?


Answered many times. You can't refute my responses & keep posting the same thing over & over again. Answered here:

John 3:36, 3:16, 1 Jn.1:2, aionios life:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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ClementofA

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wrong again. The verse in Hebrews 10 shows that if we ( Believers) sin wilfully, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.

There's no more sacrifice for Christians, too. Read this:

Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The reason there is no more sacrifice for sin, is because all the OT sacrifices are abolished. And Christ's sacrifice is the only valid one now. There will be no more.

It's only through Christ & His sacrifice that people are saved, either in this life, or the after life.


In the Ot law we see there was a sin of ignorance and presumptuous in rebellious arrogance knowingly acts, or wilful sin. The presumptuous sin had no more sacrifice. But the sins of ignorance were covered by the sacrifice

Yet according to you the willful sinners of Heb.10:26-27 still have a sacrifice. If they turn back to Christ before they die. Although no Scripture you've quoted yet says that sacrifice is not still effective & powerful after life, or in the next world. Nothing you've quoted says the power of Christ's sacrifice & blood expires like a carton of milk for the lost at the moment they die.

Numbers 15:30 KJV
But the soul that doeth ought
presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people"

Leviticus 4:2,3 KJV
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall
sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: 3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the Lord for a sin offering."


So when the Jewish believers went back under the law and went to animal sacrifices again, this was sin and done despite the spirit of grace. It was a horrible sin. and as long as they are in this wilful sin they are under judgement. No animal sacrifices can cover them or be helpful for their sin.

Jesus is the one sacrifice for sin. If they repent and come back to him they can be forgiven.

So sins of ignorance are covered, but wilful presumetuous sins can damn the soul. Unless they repent and come to the one sacrifice Jesus Christ.

So the point is they were once saved and went back under the law and sinned, and if they were to die in that state they would have a certain fearful looking for judgement and fiery indignation to look forward to. There is no more sacrifice for sin,if they deny the one sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ death for sin.

So this defeats universalism.

But "a certain fearful looking for judgement and fiery indignation" is not necessarily indicative of a hopeless condition. So nothing you've said "defeats universalism".

There is no other gospel than 1 Cor 15:1-4 for salvation.

Like I said the gospel is not

"when you suffer in hell and the lake of fire for a while you will get out someday", no, that would be a false gospel. here is no more sacrifice for their sin ( and the one sacrifice that they don't have is the sacrifice of Jesus) So there is no way to be saved.

Up above you say the willful sinners can turn back to Jesus & be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus. Here you say "they don't have the sacrifice of Jesus) So there is no way to be saved." You should make up your mind. Which is it?

Also the gospel of 1 Cor.15:1-4 doesn't mention universalism. But, then, what you forgot to mention is that, it doesn't speak of endless tortures in hell, either.

Furthermore, can you show me the verse that says the sacrifice of Jesus has expired for those in the lake of fire? Or for anyone after they die?

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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LoveofTruth

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There's no more sacrifice for Christians, too. Read this:

Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The reason there is no more sacrifice for sin, is because all the OT sacrifices are abolished. And Christ's sacrifice is the only valid one now. There will be no more.

It's only through Christ & His sacrifice that people are saved, either in this life, or the after life.
all the ones who do not have Christ sacrifice and may have gone back to animal sacrifices and die in such a state have only to look forward to a "certain, fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation"..it doesn't say they have to look forward to "a uncertain fearful judgement and fiery indignation which shall one day be ended and they will be free from that.

It doesn't say they have to "look forward to a temporary fiery judgement.

But all they have to look forward to is that fiery judgement. There is no escape clause in the text. And in such sin in hell and the lake of fire there is no more sacrifice for their sin. They had rejected the Spirit of Grace and died in that sin. Where does it say they will have a sacrifice after death . No it says a certain fearful looking for of judgement. What do they have to "look for"? only judgement. It doesn't say they can look for mercy and release from the fiery judgement.

To look for, is a future tense and an ongoing one as the text implies. No end to that looking for or looking forward to.
 
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LoveofTruth

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So why does His love expire like a carton of milk at the time of death for those who die in sin?
It doesn't expire ever as I said. But neither does his wrath on the sinners who die in their sins.

and I wouldn't compare God's love to a carton of milk that expires. The milk of the word never expires. The word abides forever.
 
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LoveofTruth

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To all:

consider again with another verse

first, this verse

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Notice again, they "shall not [future and present tense] see life", and all that awaits them is the wrath of God that will abideth [meaning remain, continue in Greek] upon them.

then this similar verse below in the positive for those who do believe.

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."(John 5:24 KJV)

These two verses say similar to other verses that show both sides.The ones with eternal life and the ones with eternal damnation.

Here we see that those who believe "hath" (present tense) "eternal (aionios) life. I have already clearly shown that eternal life in this context is Jesus Christ Himself. Not some age life or temporary time life. He is the eternal life and that life any believer has is in HIM.

But Jesus goes on to say they "shall not come into condemnation". This expression is similar to those who "shall not see life", in the opposite side. The expression "shall not come into condemnation", shows the time frame that they will be in eternal life, there is no end to it. It doesn't say " they shall not come into condemnation for an age or a time period". No it says they shall not (ever) come into condemnation. But the opposite is true for the lost, they "shall not see life" but they shall come into condemnation. It doesn't say "they shall see life eventually" as some universalist imply.

No two verses can be any clearer here.

I like these two verses because the word "aionios" is not used for "shall not come into condemnation" here and it is not used in the first verse that says they "shall not see life". This is important because it gets away from all the word twisting and play over "aionios" which means perpeptual never ending in many cases. And again defeats universalism strongly. Though some are so deep in their error that they will not admit it even if it is right in front of them.
 
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ClementofA

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..it doesn't say they have to look forward to "a uncertain fearful judgement and fiery indignation which shall one day be ended and they will be free from that.

It doesn't need to. Other scripture passages reveal universalism. In fact the same context implies a limited punishment:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


But all they have to look forward to is that fiery judgement.

There is no "all they have to look forward to" in the passage. That is your opinion, not Scripture.

And in such sin in hell and the lake of fire there is no more sacrifice for their sin.

This again is merely your opinion, not what the context says.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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LoveofTruth

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It doesn't need to. Other scripture passages reveal universalism. In fact the same context implies a limited punishment:

It says they have to look foreword to a certain fearful judgement. This in the text is all they have to "look forward to". To say they don't contradicts the verse. I know this shatters your universalism doctrine with another few verses. But let every thing that can be shaken be shaken. So that all we see is that glorious image of Christ. Turn from your error here andgo back and recant all you ever wrote about it.

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

you keep trying with the very weal argument. The writer used strong words, like "certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, " "devour", and Vengeance", and "of how much sorer punishment"..."fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

Sounds very severe to me.

A question I have with some Universalist is that they act like a loving God would not send someone to fire forever. But do they accept that he sends a person to fire at all? Even for an hour might be horrible enough. Scripture warns of the sore punishment and fire and devouring the adversaries, wailing and gnashing of teeth, fire never quenched.

Can some see that even a year in such a place is horrible. But imagine forever. The salvation of Jesus Christ is so important that Jesus warns of hell and the fire.

There is no "all they have to look forward to" in the passage. That is your opinion, not Scripture.
Yes there is it says

" But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

It says it right in the text. This is what they have to look for , it says nothing else but a fearful looking for of judgement and fore indignation. There is no other words that imply they have to look for salvation after death and fire and time in hell and the lake of fire. Not even ne word to imply that.

And notice no "aionios" in this part.
 
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ClementofA

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you keep trying with the very weal argument. The writer used strong words, like "certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, " "devour", and Vengeance", and "of how much sorer punishment"..."fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God"

Sounds very severe to me.

Nobody denies it's severe. It's just not irreversible or ridiculous like endless tortures by a God Who is Love Omnipotent.


A question I have with some Universalist is that they act like a loving God would not send someone to fire forever.
But do they accept that he sends a person to fire at all?

There's the lake of fire. Is that a physical fire? Can a physical fire hurt those who are disembodied beings? Would a person die immediately if cast into such a lake? Does Love make their flesh grow back immediately after being burned off so they can be tortured for all eternity?

Even for an hour might be horrible enough. Scripture warns of the sore punishment and fire and devouring the adversaries, wailing and gnashing of teeth, fire never quenched.

What does it devour? Compare this:

1 Cor.5:4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus), 5 to give up such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


It says it right in the text. This is what they have to look for , it says nothing else but a fearful looking for of judgement and fore indignation. There is no other words that imply they have to look for salvation after death and fire and time in hell and the lake of fire. Not even ne word to imply that.


Read the context & the rest of Hebrews, not just one verse:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
 
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LoveofTruth

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There's the lake of fire. Is that a physical fire? Can a physical fire hurt those who are disembodied beings? Would a person die immediately if cast into such a lake? Does Love make their flesh grow back immediately after being burned off so they can be tortured for all eternity?
I was talking about the fire of hell and lake of fire. The point I was making why in your understanding of God's love would he even allow such PUNISHMENT and torments for a second for anyone?

and we read about both the saved and lost raised up for such a state. Who knows how or what kind of body they actually have. But we do read

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Notice the words "body and soul"

and we read

Luke 16:24
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

He was in some kind of torment. He could talk, and see and feel had a tongue. He was in some form that could be tormented. That is enough to say it will happen and how much worse for the final end of those who die in sin and unbelief.

Believe me this is not a "fun" topic. It is a very serious one and sober topic.
 
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ClementofA

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I was talking about the fire of hell and lake of fire. The point I was making why in your understanding of God's love would he even allow such PUNISHMENT and torments for a second for anyone?

and we read about both the saved and lost raised up for such a state. Who knows how or what kind of body they actually have. But we do read

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Notice the words "body and soul"

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

Category:Rebuilt buildings and structures - Wikipedia

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

destroy | Definition of destroy in English by Oxford Dictionaries

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.



Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism



and we read

Luke 16:24
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

He was in some kind of torment. He could talk, and see and feel had a tongue. He was in some form that could be tormented. That is enough to say it will happen and how much worse for the final end of those who die in sin and unbelief.

Believe me this is not a "fun" topic. It is a very serious one and sober topic.


Nothing there denies the possibility of repentance & salvation to any who might end up in the lake of fire. In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments.

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7285
 
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Butch5

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This understanding of aeons as only age is easily refuted here,

"Your entire argument fails right here and crashes to the ground

Eternal [aionios] life is Jesus Christ . He is the life and eternal life as scripture says and he is forever and eternal and everlasting in His being. And all believers have eternal life "abiding" in them, as they abide in Jesus Christ for he is eternal life.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."( 1 John 1:1-3KJV)

Notice the "eternal [aionios] life" life is Jesus Christ.

"11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal [aionios] life, and this life is in his Son."( 1 John 5:11 KJV)

"20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal [aionios] life."(1 John 5:20 KJV)

Eternal [aionios] life is actually Jesus Christ himself and if he is in us we are in Him which is eternal [aionios] life.

and so those who wilfully sin and do such things as this

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal [aionios] life abiding in him."( 1 John 3:15 KJV)

These no longer have eternal life (Jesus Christ ) abiding in them. Notice that Jesus Christ (eternal life) is in a person or not. It is not an age as some make it in many instances but actually Jesus Christ himself. This could be the reason why some don't understand this and teach heresy because Jesus Christ ( eternal life ) is not in them . I would say to all to read this and consider,

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

2 Corinthians 13:3
"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.""

My argument doesn't fail. You've simply presented a logical fallacy here. You approach the text with the idea that aionios means eternal and then present passages where you use aionios as eternal. That is Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. Nothing here has shown the meaning of aionios. However, Jesus Himself spoke of the end of the aion. The English word Eternity means without end. According to Jesus there is an end to the aion. How then can it mean eternity?

Eternal life in not a person. It is having access to the Tree of Life. It is being given life from the Father on a continuous basis.
 
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he-man

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Matthew 25.46; G2851 [Strong]; LSJ, MIDDLELIDDLE, SLATER; devine retribution; penal, penalty; Ephesian 2:7 G165 [STRONG] αιων γιγνεται "tis an age" ; 2 Thess 1:9 αιωνιος G166 [STRONG] LSJ, Slater, Middle Liddel; without end; perpetual.
 
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Der Alte

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My argument doesn't fail. You've simply presented a logical fallacy here. You approach the text with the idea that aionios means eternal and then present passages where you use aionios as eternal. That is Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. Nothing here has shown the meaning of aionios. However, Jesus Himself spoke of the end of the aion. The English word Eternity means without end. According to Jesus there is an end to the aion. How then can it mean eternity?
Eternal life in not a person. It is having access to the Tree of Life. It is being given life from the Father on a continuous basis.
Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιοςaionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
How then can aion/aionios refer to something which is not eternal?

Matthew 16:26
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Revelation 12:9
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth? Was the faith of the Roman church literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet earth? Did Satan literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth. What is it called when someone uses exaggeration to emphasize a point? E.g. “that person was a big as a house.” I think the term is hyperbole.
 
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LoveofTruth

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My argument doesn't fail. You've simply presented a logical fallacy here. You approach the text with the idea that aionios means eternal and then present passages where you use aionios as eternal. That is Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. Nothing here has shown the meaning of aionios. However, Jesus Himself spoke of the end of the aion. The English word Eternity means without end. According to Jesus there is an end to the aion. How then can it mean eternity?

Eternal life in not a person. It is having access to the Tree of Life. It is being given life from the Father on a continuous basis.
I said Jesus himself is eternal life as scripture teaches. He is not an age or temporary time. He is the life eternal life
 
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Butch5

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I said Jesus himself is eternal life as scripture teaches. He is not an age or temporary time. He is the life eternal life

You did. And, I pointed out that Jesus is a person and eternal life is a thing. Jesus Himself spoke of the end of the aion. If Jesus indicated that the aion would end, will it end?
 
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LoveofTruth

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You did. And, I pointed out that Jesus is a person and eternal life is a thing. Jesus Himself spoke of the end of the aion. If Jesus indicated that the aion would end, will it end?
no , you are mistaken, when talking about eternal life and jesus Christ.He is the life, he is eternal life as many scriptures show. Go back and read my text from before too much to post again.

A person who abide in Him has Jesus Christ (eternal life) abiding in him. But if he abides not in eternal life ( jesus Christ) then he does not have eternal life in him. I know this understanding confounds your teaching and others who try to teach universalism. But thats good, scripture exposed heresies if we walk in the light.

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."(1 John 3:15)

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have
seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"(1 John 1"1-2 KJV)

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

etc etc etc
 
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