What Does Aionios Mean in Matthew 25:46 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9? (part 1)

ClementofA · Jan 2, 2018

Der Alter said:
The Jewish writings the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica inform us what those idioms communicate.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

I didn't see any date for these - cherry picked - writings, or evidence thereof. Are they correctly translated. Amongst ancient Jews there was a belief that the wicked spend no more than 12 months in Gehenna. And Gehenna itself will be destroyed. So it's not a place of neverending tortures.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Jesus pointed people continually to the Scriptures of the OT, not Jewish myths & horror fables. While warning against the teachings of the Pharisees. They believed in eternal punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jan 2, 2018

St. John of the Cross said:
1). the text never says that the dead become part of "all mankind" in the new heavens and earth.

2) The text says it's the new heavens and earth. The sun, moon, and stars exist there only their light is not needed because the glory of God outshines them.

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

3)Dead bodies isn't literal for the New Testament tells us:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? - Rom 7:24

4) Death is destroyed in the lake of fire along with the dead bodies. The lake of fire is the second death. All death is separated from life in the new heavens and earth. Death is eternal separation.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte · Jan 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
I didn't see any date for these - cherry picked - writings, or evidence thereof. Are they correctly translated.

How much of the cherry picked UR spam that you quote is dated and has a guarantee that it was correctly translated? If you are going to make this argument then you must ensure that everything you quote is dated and certified as correctly translated.

Amongst ancient Jews there was a belief that the wicked spend no more than 12 months in Gehenna. And Gehenna itself will be destroyed. So it's not a place of neverending tortures.

Irrelevant! that there were other beliefs does not prove that the views I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica did not exist. Someone expressed an opinion about supposed Jewish idioms I provided documentary evidence what those idioms were.
.....Nothing you have said or could say disproves anything I quoted. That is what Jewish scholars said on the subject. But of course there are URs who think they know more than the Jews about Jewish history
.....Where does the Jewish Encyclopedia article say gehenna will be destroyed?

Jesus pointed people continually to the Scriptures of the OT, not Jewish myths & horror fables. While warning against the teachings of the Pharisees. They believed in eternal punishment.

Good now show me where Jesus of any other NT writer specifically denounced eternal punishment?

St. John of the Cross · Jan 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Heavens and earth and those under the earth refers to those in heaven and earth and those saints resurrected from under the earth. This is a reference to those in purgatory. Not everyone is grafted in. All mankind who worship God is in the whole world (New heavens and earth).

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

Those in the fire are not included. They must be grafted in to become part of all mankind.

ClementofA · Jan 2, 2018

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant! that there were other beliefs does not prove that the views I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud and Encyclopedia Judaica did not exist.

Existed when? Hundreds of years after Christ (c. 30 A.D.)? Beliefs can, & often do, change over the period of a generation or a century or more.

As has been pointed out, ancient Jews had a variety of beliefs re the afterlife, e.g. a maximum limit of 12 months in Gehenna, Gehenna being destroyed, therefore not a place of never ending tortures, etc.

Der Alter said:
Someone expressed an opinion about supposed Jewish idioms I provided documentary evidence what those idioms were.

Yes, your cherry picked "evidence" of unknown dates.

Der Alter said:
.....Nothing you have said or could say disproves anything I quoted.

It is what it is. Relevant, out of date, cherry picked, or not.

Der Alter said:
Where does the Jewish Encyclopedia article say gehenna will be destroyed?

Read your own posts in this thread. It was there.

Jesus pointed people continually to the Scriptures of the OT, not Jewish myths & horror fables. While warning against the teachings of the Pharisees. They believed in eternal punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jan 2, 2018

St. John of the Cross said:
Heavens and earth and those under the earth refers to those in heaven and earth and those saints resurrected from under the earth. This is a reference to those in purgatory. Not everyone is grafted in. All mankind who worship God is in the whole world (New heavens and earth).

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

Those in the fire are not included. They must be grafted in to become part of all mankind.

John,

Purgatory, eh? I didn't see that one coming. Do RC's hold out hope that everyone will be saved?

What do you make of these passages:

Isa.45:21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there isnone beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me. Speaking of love..."

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

St. John of the Cross · Jan 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
John,

Purgatory, eh? I didn't see that one coming. Do RC's hold out hope that everyone will be saved?

What do you make of these passages:

Isa.45:21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there isnone beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me. Speaking of love..."

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

The new heavens and earth is the whole world or all nations. The new Jerusalem is at the center of the new heavens and earth. All the ends of the earth worship God. All mankind. Those under the earth are not included. They must be grafted in. The Lake of fire (under the earth) contains hell and purgatory. These are states of being. To be part of all mankind one must be grafted in. Those who enter the state of hell are separated. As a result they don't want to love God.

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

Those in the fire are not included. They must be grafted in to become part of all mankind. or the all things made new.

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all things new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The new heavens and earth or all nations (whole world) doesn't include those who don't want to worship God. If they don't want to they don't have to.

he-man · Jan 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.

Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:
"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
[De Principis Book 2]
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)
If you say [a] "it looks like it will rain today, maybe it will rain" & then say "it won't rain today", then [c] you are contradicting yourself. Both statements cannot be true.
As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".
"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".
The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".
What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never". So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".
What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not.
As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:
TLG - Home
I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language
It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" &

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)

Furthermore re Origen & aionios, Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary
.

see YLT

he-man · Jan 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.

Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:
"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
[De Principis Book 2]
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)
If you say [a] "it looks like it will rain today, maybe it will rain" & then say "it won't rain today", then [c] you are contradicting yourself. Both statements cannot be true.
As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".
"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".
The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".
What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never". So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".
What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not.
As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:
TLG - Home
I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language
It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" &

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)

Furthermore re Origen & aionios, Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary
.

YLT translates 2 Thess 1:9 as who shall pay a penalty of destruction everlasting

ClementofA · Jan 2, 2018

he-man said:
YLT translates 2 Thess 1:9 as who shall pay a penalty of destruction everlasting

How many dozen times has that verse been addressed:

The text is not a difficult one to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR).

Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionian, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved.

Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

Some literal (non deceptive) translations read:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

The Endless HellFire Boys Club has cloned many translations supporting their view. Does that make them right? What if a billionaire published 1000 bible translations all saying God is Hitler, would the sheer numbers of versions make them true?

Do you realize the Greek word for "eternal" (in 2 Thess.1:9 & elsewhere) is used of the length of time Jonah was in the sea creature, i.e. 3 days:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

And the Greek word for "destruction" (olethros, 2 Thess.1:9) often refers to mere death, or a punishment, or type of ruin that is temporary or reparable:

Untitled

A lexicon re olethros at the following url states:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2018

To all:

these verses seems to rebuke all the universalist consider

"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."(Hebrews 10:26,27)

Here we see that there will be no more sacrifice for sin to some if they doe in that state what sacrifice for their sin can they have.

This is why universalism is a false doctrine, because it teaches another gospel, or another way to be saved outside of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ sacrifice for sin on the earth. Scripture says that when there is no more sacrifice for sin, only a fiery indignation is to be expected.

So since men die in their sin, how will they have a sacrifice for their sin in hell? they won't, and the wrath of Gd upon them will be on them forever because there e is no more sacrifice for their sin.

I am curious how the universalist would answer this. I am guessing they will go into the Greek and search frantically for a remote word to try and change the meaning of the verse.

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2018

ClementofA said:
How many dozen times has that verse been addressed:

The text is not a difficult one to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR).

Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionian, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved.

Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

Some literal (non deceptive) translations read:

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (YLT)

The Endless HellFire Boys Club has cloned many translations supporting their view. Does that make them right? What if a billionaire published 1000 bible translations all saying God is Hitler, would the sheer numbers of versions make them true?

Do you realize the Greek word for "eternal" (in 2 Thess.1:9 & elsewhere) is used of the length of time Jonah was in the sea creature, i.e. 3 days:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

And the Greek word for "destruction" (olethros, 2 Thess.1:9) often refers to mere death, or a punishment, or type of ruin that is temporary or reparable:

Untitled

A lexicon re olethros at the following url states:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

these verses seems to rebuke all the universalist consider,

"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."(Hebrews 10:26,27)

Here we see that there will be no more sacrifice for sin to some if they doe in that state what sacrifice for their sin can they have.

This is why universalism is a false doctrine, because it teaches another gospel, or another way to be saved outside of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ sacrifice for sin on the earth. Scripture says that when there is no more sacrifice for sin, only a fiery indignation is to be expected.

So since men die in their sin, how will they have a sacrifice for their sin in hell? they won't, and the wrath of Gd upon them will be on them forever because there e is no more sacrifice for their sin.

I am curious how the universalist would answer this. I am guessing they will go into the Greek and search frantically for a remote word to try and change the meaning of the verse.

LoveofTruth · Jan 2, 2018

To all:

The Universalist render the death of Christ unnecessary by their attempt to say God can show an act of kindness towards those under His wrath in hell and the lake of fire.

If God could save one soul from sin by a mere act of his kindness and ignore his holy justice against sin, then he could save all by such an act. Then the death of Christ was not needed.

One of the main errors in universalism is the lack of understanding of God's true nature and holiness. A lack of understanding of His justice and wrath against sin.

ClementofA · Jan 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
To all:

these verses seems to rebuke all the universalist consider

"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."(Hebrews 10:26,27)

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

ClementofA · Jan 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
This is why universalism is a false doctrine, because it teaches another gospel, or another way to be saved outside of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ sacrifice for sin on the earth.

You are misinformed. Like this brother:

A typical Damnationist who has no clue re universalism

LoveofTruth said:
Scripture says that when there is no more sacrifice for sin, only a fiery indignation is to be expected.

So since men die in their sin, how will they have a sacrifice for their sin in hell?

There will be no more sacrifices for sin, as in the OT. Christ's sacrifice is the end of sacrifices for sin. There will be no more. Therefore those who sin willfully must turn back to God, repent & believe in that sacrifice for their sins.

Mk.9:8 And suddenly, looking around, they saw no one any longer, but Jesus alone with themselves.

Did they not see any man "any longer" (Mk.9:8) after that time except Jesus? Obviously they did see other men, so the words "any longer" does not support the contention re Heb.10:26 that God would "never" again allow some to be beneficiaries of the sacrifice of Christ.

Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God (Mt.22:29)

LoveofTruth said:
they won't, and the wrath of Gd upon them will be on them forever because there e is no more sacrifice for their sin.

That's your errant opinion, just as your interpretation of Heb. 10:26-27 is your opinion. Not God's Word. BTW, there's no more sacrifice for a Christian's sins either, so are you lost to endless tortures if you have ever sinned since becoming a Christian:

Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.
Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:1
The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

-----------

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

LoveofTruth · Jan 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Your argument is very weak and is based upon your own bias here he did say

“ Hebrews 10 - 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. “

Words like these are strong enough the point is that you by passed the strength of the argument and created a distraction. The main point was no more sacrifice for sin but a fiery indignation and punishment and judgement awaiting them
. If there is no more sacrifice for sin then there is no more possibility of salvation if they die in this state .

And so universalism is not true. There is only one gospel

The gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4

The gospel is NOT “You will be saved if you burn in hell for while” that would be another gospel and accursed. As Paul said.

Der Alte · Jan 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
Existed when? Hundreds of years after Christ (c. 30 A.D.)? Beliefs can, & often do, change over the period of a generation or a century or more.

According to the sources I quoted the belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both Gehenna and sheol began 100s of years before Christ.

As has been pointed out, ancient Jews had a variety of beliefs re the afterlife, e.g. a maximum limit of 12 months in Gehenna, Gehenna being destroyed, therefore not a place of never ending tortures, etc.

Irrelevant rubbish. So what? There were Sadducees, Pharisees, scribes ete. The source you are cherry picking also documented eternal punishment in gehenna and sheol. None of the beliefs mentioned cancels any other. The Talmud which mentioned gehenna being destroyed said

"Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]"And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more."

Note that is interpretation of scripture NOT "fables" so we can ignore those "Jewish fables" objections.

Yes, your cherry picked "evidence" of unknown dates.
It is what it is. Relevant, out of date, cherry picked, or not.
Read your own posts in this thread. It was there.

Meaningless obfuscation. Yet you think an anonymous lead tablet of unknown date is supposed to determine the meaning of a Greek word.

LoveofTruth · Jan 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
That's your errant opinion, just as your interpretation of Heb. 10:26-27 is your opinion. Not God's Word. BTW, there's no more sacrifice for a Christian's sins either, so are you lost to endless tortures if you have ever sinned since becoming a Christian:

wrong again. The verse in Hebrews 10 shows that if we ( Believers) sin wilfully, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.

In the Ot law we see there was a sin of ignorance and presumptuous in rebellious arrogance knowingly acts, or wilful sin. The presumptuous sin had no more sacrifice. But the sins of ignorance were covered by the sacrifice

Numbers 15:30 KJV
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people"

Leviticus 4:2,3 KJV
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: 3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the Lord for a sin offering."

So when the Jewish believers went back under the law and went to animal sacrifices again, this was sin and done despite the spirit of grace. It was a horrible sin. and as long as they are in this wilful sin they are under judgement. No animal sacrifices can cover them or be helpful for their sin.

Jesus is the one sacrifice for sin. If they repent and come back to him they can be forgiven.

So sins of ignorance are covered, but wilful presumetuous sins can damn the soul. Unless they repent and come to the one sacrifice Jesus Christ.

So the point is they were once saved and went back under the law and sinned, and if they were to die in that state they would have a certain fearful looking for judgement and fiery indignation to look forward to. There is no more sacrifice for sin,if they deny the one sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ death for sin.

So this defeats universalism.

There is no other gospel than 1 Cor 15:1-4 for salvation.

Like I said the gospel is not

"when you suffer in hell and the lake of fire for a while you will get out someday", no, that would be a false gospel. here is no more sacrifice for their sin ( and the one sacrifice that they don't have is the sacrifice of Jesus) So there is no way to be saved.

Note the words "no more"

ClementofA · Jan 3, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
The gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4

Yes.

LoveofTruth said:
The gospel is NOT “You will be saved if you burn in hell for while” that would be another gospel and accursed. As Paul said.

That is another misrepresentation. I didn't say that. Those in "hell" will be saved by the same method & gospel as anyone else.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

ClementofA · Jan 3, 2018

Der Alter said:
According to the sources I quoted the belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment which the Jews called both Gehenna and sheol began 100s of years before Christ.

An unsupported opinion. Also beliefs can change in 100's of years. Show me proof of what ALL Jews believed c. 30 AD, i.e. at the time of Christ. Otherwise, if you can't PROVE that, then maybe you should stick with the inspired Scriptures rather than myths & horror flick fables. That's what Jesus did.

What Does Aionios Mean in Matthew 25:46 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9? (part 1)

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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