well, whether the audio clip is real or not hell is very real
scripture makes that more than clear
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WHAT, do you think, is hell?
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well, whether the audio clip is real or not hell is very real
scripture makes that more than clear
Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
No. It means that he wills all men to be saved. That he has sworn on his very life that all will submit to him. Remember he knew the end from the begining, It is not that he hopes men will submit to his will. He knows for a fact exactly what will happen wishful thinking, hopes and desires are alien to a being that knows the result already.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
Also remember that there is nothing we can do but by the grace of God we are saved. To say that God can want us saved but it is up to us to actually do it is in direct opposition to the teaching of the bible and places the power in the hand of man where man has none.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
Sorry but that is not true either. This fictional place of eternal torture referred to as hell is a myth with very little basis in scripture. A mistranslated word here and there, bad interpretation and worse understanding adds to the myth but such a place does not exist and you will be hard pressed to find 2 different groups that can even agree on what it is. Scripture talks about hades/sheol which in no way resembles this hell. It also talks about Gehenna which was a real literal place well known to the Jews to whom he was speaking. It also speaks of judgment and fire but then fire is often a good thing and even torment can be a good thing.
Consider that the word translated as torment means to test the purity of gold or silver. Consider that this torment occurs at judgment where the work of every man is tried and consider what Paul wrote about the work of every man being tried by fire be it silver and gold or hay and stubble but he goes on to say that the man shall be saved as by fire regaurdless of the judgment.
God himself is refered to as fire, the bible tells us that we shall be tried by fire, baptised with fire, salted by fire and saved as by fire. Our God is a consuming fire. It is he who tries, baptises, salts and saves.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
They will indeed, Every knee shall bend and every tounge shall swear. If we look closer to the end of the bibel we see that every creature on earth and in heaven and in the sea and under the earth. that all of them will praise him. We see that at judgment every man shall be tried by what he has done and that same every man shall be saved. We see that in Adam everyone dies and that same everyone shall live in Christ. We see that Jesus is the savior of the world, not just you and me but the whole world. He said that he would leave the 99 and search for the 1 until he finds it that no one can come unless they are drawn and all will be drawn on the last day.
Sure there are lots of interpretations that cloud the issue but when you think about it they do not make any sense. Repeatedly the bible uses the pesky words all and every in relation to salvation and mentions that man has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is all about the will of God which brings us back to the simple notion that it is his will that all be saved and his will will be done.
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1 Enoch
[SIZE=-2]7.[/SIZE] And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.
[SIZE=-2]8.[/SIZE] In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become,
And the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands,
For on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not [SIZE=-1](be able to)[/SIZE] save themselves.
[SIZE=-2]9.[/SIZE] And I will give them over into the hands of Mine elect:
As straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy:
As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous,
And no trace of them shall any more be found.
[SIZE=-2]10.[/SIZE] And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth,
And before them they shall fall and not rise again:
And there shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them:
For they have denied the Lord of Spirits and His Anointed.
The name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed.
[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]9.[/SIZE] And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who rule the earth
Shall fall down before him on their faces,
And worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man,
And petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands.
[SIZE=-2]10.[/SIZE] .Nevertheless that Lord of Spirits will so press them
That they shall hastily go forth from His presence,
And their faces shall be filled with shame,
And the darkness grow deeper on their faces.
[SIZE=-2]11.[/SIZE] And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment,
To execute vengeance on them because they have oppressed His children and His elect
[SIZE=-2]12.[/SIZE] And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His elect:
They shall rejoice over them,
Because the wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them,
And His sword is drunk with their blood.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm
[SIZE=-2]7.[/SIZE] And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.
[SIZE=-2]8.[/SIZE] In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become,
And the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands,
For on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not [SIZE=-1](be able to)[/SIZE] save themselves.
[SIZE=-2]9.[/SIZE] And I will give them over into the hands of Mine elect:
As straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy:
As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous,
And no trace of them shall any more be found.
[SIZE=-2]10.[/SIZE] And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth,
And before them they shall fall and not rise again:
And there shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them:
For they have denied the Lord of Spirits and His Anointed.
The name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed.
[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]9.[/SIZE] And all the kings and the mighty and the exalted and those who rule the earth
Shall fall down before him on their faces,
And worship and set their hope upon that Son of Man,
And petition him and supplicate for mercy at his hands.
[SIZE=-2]10.[/SIZE] .Nevertheless that Lord of Spirits will so press them
That they shall hastily go forth from His presence,
And their faces shall be filled with shame,
And the darkness grow deeper on their faces.
[SIZE=-2]11.[/SIZE] And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment,
To execute vengeance on them because they have oppressed His children and His elect
[SIZE=-2]12.[/SIZE] And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His elect:
They shall rejoice over them,
Because the wrath of the Lord of Spirits resteth upon them,
And His sword is drunk with their blood.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm
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2 Esdras
[33] And when all the nations hear his voice, every man shall leave his own land and the warfare that they have against one another;
[34] and an innumerable multitude shall be gathered together, as you saw, desiring to come and conquer him.
[35] But he shall stand on the top of Mount Zion.
[36] And Zion will come and be made manifest to all people, prepared and built, as you saw the mountain carved out without hands.
[37] And he, my Son, will reprove the assembled nations for their ungodliness (this was symbolized by the storm),
[38] and will reproach them to their face with their evil thoughts and the torments with which they are to be tortured (which were symbolized by the flames), and will destroy them without effort by the law (which was symbolized by the fire)
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_ot/2esdr.htm
[33] And when all the nations hear his voice, every man shall leave his own land and the warfare that they have against one another;
[34] and an innumerable multitude shall be gathered together, as you saw, desiring to come and conquer him.
[35] But he shall stand on the top of Mount Zion.
[36] And Zion will come and be made manifest to all people, prepared and built, as you saw the mountain carved out without hands.
[37] And he, my Son, will reprove the assembled nations for their ungodliness (this was symbolized by the storm),
[38] and will reproach them to their face with their evil thoughts and the torments with which they are to be tortured (which were symbolized by the flames), and will destroy them without effort by the law (which was symbolized by the fire)
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_ot/2esdr.htm
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2 Esdras
[9] Then those who have now abused my ways shall be amazed, and those who have rejected them with contempt shall dwell in torments.
[10] For as many as did not acknowledge me in their lifetime, although they received my benefits,
[11] and as many as scorned my law while they still had freedom, and did not understand but despised it while an opportunity of repentance was still open to them,
[12] these must in torment acknowledge it after death.
[13] Therefore, do not continue to be curious as to how the ungodly will be punished; but inquire how the righteous will be saved, those to whom the age belongs and for whose sake the age was made."
[14] I answered and said,
[15] "I said before, and I say now, and will say it again: there are more who perish than those who will be saved,
[16] as a wave is greater than a drop of water."
[17] He answered me and said, "As is the field, so is the seed; and as are the flowers, so are the colors; and as is the work, so is the product; and as is the farmer, so is the threshing floor.
[18] For there was a time in this age when I was preparing for those who now exist, before the world was made for them to dwell in, and no one opposed me then, for no one existed;
[19] but now those who have been created in this world which is supplied both with an unfailing table and an inexhaustible pasture, have become corrupt in their ways.
[20] So I considered my world, and behold, it was lost, and my earth, and behold, it was in peril because of the devices of those who had come into it.
[21] And I saw and spared some with great difficulty, and saved for myself one grape out of a cluster, and one plant out of a great forest.
[22] So let the multitude perish which has been born in vain, but let my grape and my plant be saved, because with much labor I have perfected them.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_ot/2esdr.htm
[9] Then those who have now abused my ways shall be amazed, and those who have rejected them with contempt shall dwell in torments.
[10] For as many as did not acknowledge me in their lifetime, although they received my benefits,
[11] and as many as scorned my law while they still had freedom, and did not understand but despised it while an opportunity of repentance was still open to them,
[12] these must in torment acknowledge it after death.
[13] Therefore, do not continue to be curious as to how the ungodly will be punished; but inquire how the righteous will be saved, those to whom the age belongs and for whose sake the age was made."
[14] I answered and said,
[15] "I said before, and I say now, and will say it again: there are more who perish than those who will be saved,
[16] as a wave is greater than a drop of water."
[17] He answered me and said, "As is the field, so is the seed; and as are the flowers, so are the colors; and as is the work, so is the product; and as is the farmer, so is the threshing floor.
[18] For there was a time in this age when I was preparing for those who now exist, before the world was made for them to dwell in, and no one opposed me then, for no one existed;
[19] but now those who have been created in this world which is supplied both with an unfailing table and an inexhaustible pasture, have become corrupt in their ways.
[20] So I considered my world, and behold, it was lost, and my earth, and behold, it was in peril because of the devices of those who had come into it.
[21] And I saw and spared some with great difficulty, and saved for myself one grape out of a cluster, and one plant out of a great forest.
[22] So let the multitude perish which has been born in vain, but let my grape and my plant be saved, because with much labor I have perfected them.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_ot/2esdr.htm
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A
Absolute truth
Guest
Amen, and very well put.
Since God knows the beginning from the end and has established all things through the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who is the Alpha (beginning) and Omega (ending) than to simply state that His desire is anything less than His perfect will to accomplish that which He was sent to accomplish is an out and out denial of the very scriptures one would claim as absolute truth.
God bless, Dave
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even Michael the Archangel was taken back by the punishment of the ungodly:
1 Enoch
[SIZE=-2]1.[/SIZE] And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me the teaching of all the secrets in the book in the Parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the Parables. [SIZE=-2]2.[/SIZE] And on that day Michael answered Raphael and said: ' The power of the spirit transports and makes me to tremble because of the severity of the judgement of the secrets, the judgement of the angels: who can endure the severe judgement which has been executed, and before which they melt away ? ' [SIZE=-2]3.[/SIZE] And Michael answered again, and said to Raphael: ' Who is he whose heart is not softened concerning it, and whose reins are not troubled by this word of judgement [SIZE=-1](that)[/SIZE] has gone forth upon them because of those who have thus led them out ? ' [SIZE=-2]4.[/SIZE] And it came to pass when he stood before the Lord of Spirits, Michael said thus to Raphael: ' I will not take their part under the eye of the Lord; for the Lord of Spirits has been angry with them because they do as if they were the Lord. [SIZE=-2]5.[/SIZE] Therefore all that is hidden shall come upon them for ever and ever; for neither angel nor man shall have his portion [SIZE=-1](in it)[/SIZE], but alone they have received their judgement for ever and ever.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm
upon second look this may be concerning the Judgement of fallen angels alone
but I have provided verse after verse showing the reality of Hell for men
1 Enoch
[SIZE=-2]1.[/SIZE] And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me the teaching of all the secrets in the book in the Parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the Parables. [SIZE=-2]2.[/SIZE] And on that day Michael answered Raphael and said: ' The power of the spirit transports and makes me to tremble because of the severity of the judgement of the secrets, the judgement of the angels: who can endure the severe judgement which has been executed, and before which they melt away ? ' [SIZE=-2]3.[/SIZE] And Michael answered again, and said to Raphael: ' Who is he whose heart is not softened concerning it, and whose reins are not troubled by this word of judgement [SIZE=-1](that)[/SIZE] has gone forth upon them because of those who have thus led them out ? ' [SIZE=-2]4.[/SIZE] And it came to pass when he stood before the Lord of Spirits, Michael said thus to Raphael: ' I will not take their part under the eye of the Lord; for the Lord of Spirits has been angry with them because they do as if they were the Lord. [SIZE=-2]5.[/SIZE] Therefore all that is hidden shall come upon them for ever and ever; for neither angel nor man shall have his portion [SIZE=-1](in it)[/SIZE], but alone they have received their judgement for ever and ever.
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm
upon second look this may be concerning the Judgement of fallen angels alone
but I have provided verse after verse showing the reality of Hell for men
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you claim to put scripture first but you have ignored the abundance of info I have provided
though some don't consider Enoch and 2 Esdras to be scripture(but they are)
Enoch is quoted in the New Testament while 2 Esdras is oft mentions by the ECF and has been included in bibles for a very long time(theres a video of 2 Esdras being in the 1611 copy of The King James Bible)
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I am seeing a lot of rubbish here. From what I have seen "&Abel" is closest to the truth. There are children of the Devil on earth.
See Matthew 13 36-43 Ryrie Study Bible.
Matthew 13 36-43 : Then he left the multitude, and went into the house. And his disciples came to Him saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares in the field." And He answered and said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,a and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels." "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age." "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
Or are some people here suggesting that Matthew 13 : 36 - 43 is uncononical ?
See Matthew 13 : 10 - 15 (Revised Standard version)
Matthew 13 : 10 - 15
Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables ?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to him who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance; but from him who has not even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables , because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophesy of Isaiah which says : You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this peoples heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them..
The foregoing quote would seem to indicate that Christ is trying to prevent children of the Devil from turning to him to be healed.
Can children of the Devil be saved ?
See Luke 7 : 36 - 50 (Revised Standard version)
Luke 7 : 36 - 50One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house, and took his place at table. And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner." And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?" "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?" Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
See Matthew 15 : 22 - 28 (Revised Standard version)
Matthew 15 : 22 - 28 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.
These two examples, particularly the latter, I believe are examples of Christ granting his MERCY to the children of Satan; but they wont get that MERCY by pompously claiming to be saved. Rather it will be granted to those whom humble themselves showing faith by requesting only the least consideration, knowing in their hearts that any consideration from Christ will be adequate.
See Matthew 13 36-43 Ryrie Study Bible.
Matthew 13 36-43 : Then he left the multitude, and went into the house. And his disciples came to Him saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares in the field." And He answered and said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,a and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels." "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age." "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
Or are some people here suggesting that Matthew 13 : 36 - 43 is uncononical ?
See Matthew 13 : 10 - 15 (Revised Standard version)
Matthew 13 : 10 - 15
Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables ?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to him who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance; but from him who has not even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables , because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophesy of Isaiah which says : You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this peoples heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them..
The foregoing quote would seem to indicate that Christ is trying to prevent children of the Devil from turning to him to be healed.
Can children of the Devil be saved ?
See Luke 7 : 36 - 50 (Revised Standard version)
Luke 7 : 36 - 50One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house, and took his place at table. And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner." And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?" "A certain creditor had two debtors; one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he forgave them both. Now which of them will love him more?" Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, to whom he forgave more." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
See Matthew 15 : 22 - 28 (Revised Standard version)
Matthew 15 : 22 - 28 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.
These two examples, particularly the latter, I believe are examples of Christ granting his MERCY to the children of Satan; but they wont get that MERCY by pompously claiming to be saved. Rather it will be granted to those whom humble themselves showing faith by requesting only the least consideration, knowing in their hearts that any consideration from Christ will be adequate.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
Only those who profess to be Christian pompously claim to be saved many of which at the same time swear thier nieghbor is destined for eternal torture. Think about that.
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A
Absolute truth
Guest
Hi, &Abel,
I have no issues with the writings of Enoch or 2 Esdras.
My issues are with translation of scripture in or bibles, almost all of them.
You see, the words "olam" (Singular) and olam olam (Plural) in te Hebrew and "aion" and "aion aion" and "aionios" in the Greek are all translated as Eternal when these words should never have been translated as such in any bible since the original Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, were void of any one word which could be defined as eternal or everlasting or forever and ever.
This is a long study to find the truth of this matter but I can merely give an idea of what the error truly is since I would take up several seperate posts to give you complete clarity.
You see, in scripture we are only told of what happens in the ages whether Old or New testament. The concept of eternity or better yet "timelessness" exists in scripture but there is no one word which could be translated into our bibles as such.
When we see the Hebrew "olam" it is speking of an age (singular). When we see "olam olam" it is speaking in the plural form since Hebrew does not have a plural form for ages or generations so the words are always written twice to denote plural ages or generations.
The Greek is much the same with "aion". "Aion" is singular for age or again, better yet "eon" in the english. This word also has no plural and as such when the plural form is expresses it simply writes theword twice Ex: "aion aion". The Greek aion however has an adjective form "aionios" (English equivelent "Eonion) which is used when a certain subject is pertaining to the ages.
Examples:
Heb: Olam (age)
Heb:Olam Olam (ages)
Grk: Aion (age)
Grk: Aion aion (ages)
Grk: Aionios (of the ages or to the ages. Adjective form).
Although our translators acknowledged the fact that olam and aion should be defined as an age they also added an eternity to the definition. Where olam olam or aion aion is found in the scriptures they translated it as for ever and ever as if you can add another ever to an already for ever.
They did not use this same method of translation when it came to the word "dur"" which is a generation. When they saw Dor dor they translated it as generationS as they should.
Now Lets look at Strongs exhaustive concordance and take a look at these ridiculous definitions.
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end."
Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."
Now what they have done is take a noun correctly defined as an age then stretched that definition to a definition of timelessness such as eternity or forever. Then they took the adjective of that word and applied only definitions of timelessness.
Everyone knows that an adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun it is derived from yet our translators have done just that. If aion is correctly defined as an age as Dr Strong has concluded than how come there is no use for the adjective when applied to an age?
Let us look at the word "hour". Hour also has an adjective, "hourly".
Now hourly, does not and could not ever take on a greater meaning than the noun "hour" it is derived from. For example: Hourly could never mean daily or weekly but only pertains to what is limited to an hour or hours.
Allow me to give you another example. The noun hour could be used as "Schedule of hours". Then when you use the adjective you would use it as follows "hourly schedule". It does not turn into "daily schedule" or "weekly schedule". The adjective is always pertaining to the noun and nothing longer in this case.
So I ask, is this good scholarship or a religious bias?
Obviously our translators did not make this mistake by accident as I have shown they translated generation properly in all the cases I have researched so far.
Doctrinal errors that have been birthed by such a horrible error........
Eternal torment of the lost.
Gods will is nothing more than a weak wish.
Many contradictions found in the scriptures. Example: The kingdom reign of Christ is eternal according to Orthodox Christianity but the scriptures plainly state that Christ will at a future time "put down all rule and authority" and "He (Jesus) Himself will also be subject to the Father. So that age comes to an end.
There are way too many to list right now but these are major issues alone.
In conclusion everytime we read the words "eternal", "everlasting", "ever more", For ever and ever" it is simply not so.
When we read such passages where the word "aionios (eternal) God" it is not a proof that aionios must be eternal since it is applied to God. It is plainly stating that God is the God of the ages because He designed, created and governs the ages whereby He is accomplishing His complete work in them.
Please do not reply with the offence that if aionios when in reference to God is not refering to Gods eternality than is the passage stating that God will only be God for the ages and then cease to be God? I say this because there is no statement of limitations such as the word "only" in these passages and therefore to conclude such a thing is without logic.
We are told that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but does that mean He is "only" the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Of course not since there is no statement of limitation limiting Him to be "only " their God. The fact that He is the God of the ages or "aionios God" is simply stating His power and design over them and not that He will cease to exist beyond them. His eternal existance is simply not stated in these passages. Lest we forget that God is "immortal" (deathless), this question should not arise.
This is all I have time to go into tonight but upon recieving a response, I will elaborate more with any direct questions.
God bless, Dave.
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I don't claim to be saved
if I do not hold firm in my faith and continue to improve I will be cut off
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so you believe hell is temporary then? cause theres no way you can side step the reality of the lake of fire as well as everything concerning judgment and sheol in both Enoch and 2 Esdras
I think I'm gonna get my buddy whos been doing more in depth analysis on the original words as you have done
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wrong and wrong
I have shown over and over again that sheol is in the center of the earth(spiritually)
what exactly is the lake of fire symbolic of?
it probably IS symbolic but I think we both know what it symbolizes
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1 Enoch - Greek Version:
Then I asked regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separaged from the other?' [SIZE=-2]9.[/SIZE] Then he answered me saying: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And this division has bas been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is a bright spring of water. [SIZE=-2]10.[/SIZE] And this has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed upon them in their lifetime. [SIZE=-2]11.[/SIZE] Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain, till the great day of judgement, scourgings, and torments of the accursed for ever, so that [SIZE=-1](there may be)[/SIZE] retribution for their spirits. There he shall bind them for ever. [SIZE=-2]12.[/SIZE] And this division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their distruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. [SIZE=-2]13.[/SIZE] And this has been made for the spirits of men who shall not be righteous but sinners, who are godless, and of the lawless they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be punished in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' [SIZE=-2]14.[/SIZE] Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and said: 'Blessed art Thou, Lord of righteousness, who rulest over the world.'
Revelation 20
4Then I saw (H)thrones, and (I)they sat on them, and (J)judgment was given to them And I saw (K)the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (L)testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (M)worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (N)mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (O)came to life and (P)reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (Q)This is the first resurrection.
6(R)Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the (S)second death has no power, but they will be (T)priests of God and of Christ and will (U)reign with Him for a thousand years.
Then I asked regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separaged from the other?' [SIZE=-2]9.[/SIZE] Then he answered me saying: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And this division has bas been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is a bright spring of water. [SIZE=-2]10.[/SIZE] And this has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed upon them in their lifetime. [SIZE=-2]11.[/SIZE] Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain, till the great day of judgement, scourgings, and torments of the accursed for ever, so that [SIZE=-1](there may be)[/SIZE] retribution for their spirits. There he shall bind them for ever. [SIZE=-2]12.[/SIZE] And this division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their distruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. [SIZE=-2]13.[/SIZE] And this has been made for the spirits of men who shall not be righteous but sinners, who are godless, and of the lawless they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be punished in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' [SIZE=-2]14.[/SIZE] Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and said: 'Blessed art Thou, Lord of righteousness, who rulest over the world.'
Revelation 20
4Then I saw (H)thrones, and (I)they sat on them, and (J)judgment was given to them And I saw (K)the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their (L)testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not (M)worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the (N)mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they (O)came to life and (P)reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (Q)This is the first resurrection.
6(R)Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the (S)second death has no power, but they will be (T)priests of God and of Christ and will (U)reign with Him for a thousand years.
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