WHAT, do you think, is hell?

[Soul Searcher]

the current abode of the dead will be disposed of...

I see a whole lotta tap dancing around whats clearly shown in various scriptures

Matthew 12

40for just as (AR)JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will (AS)the Son of Man be (AT)three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What tap dancing? Is that verse supposed to support an enteral torturous hell? It is interesting however that it clearly says 3 days and nights whereas the word used in the OT was Olam and was translated forever. Oboviously it was not literally forever.

Another thing to consider. In revelation we see that John saw the smoke of thier torment going up forever and ever. Is this to be taken literally? Think about it. Did John literally see smoke going up forever or did he simply see a lot of smoke streching high into the sky? How long did Johns vision last? an hour? a day? a week? certianly not forever. The fact that John has been dead for many years and we have a book tellign what he saw is pretty positive proof that he did not literally see anything forever contrary to what some would have us believe.

 

[Soul Searcher]

What happens to the merciful non Christian? non believer? Athiest? Most Christian churches seem to teach that these folks are bound for eternal torture yet Jesus says that the merciful shall obtain mercy. hmm. bit of a problem there isn't it. And what about the man who finds it in his heart to forgive others but is unable to bring himself to believe in things unseen? Jesus says this man will be forgiven. The church says he will rot in hell.

Just something to think about.

 

[Absolute truth]

well least you realize sheol is an abiding place and not just a word meaning grave as some would like to believe

it is separated into torment and paradise though

I'm wondering what the original words in Enoch were(forever and ever etc)

do you know?

The same as The rest of the scriptures as they are from the same language. "olam olam".

God Bless, Dave

 

[Soul Searcher]

btw the notion that sheol/hades is divided into to seperate places seems to have it's roots in Greek mythology but was somehow adopted by some Jews.

 

[&Abel]

What happens to the merciful non Christian? non believer? Athiest? Most Christian churches seem to teach that these folks are bound for eternal torture yet Jesus says that the merciful shall obtain mercy. hmm. bit of a problem there isn't it. And what about the man who finds it in his heart to forgive others but is unable to bring himself to believe in things unseen? Jesus says this man will be forgiven. The church says he will rot in hell.

Just something to think about.

no Jesus does not say that person will be forgiven

he says that he who believes in me shall be saved

I am a very merciful person but I'm also God fearing and respect that God is perfectly just and knows what hes doing here and that things are gonna work out exactly how they should

his thoughts are not your thoughts...regardless of how you may feel about it he truly understands all the aspects of this existence and why things will be the way they will be

we all have a choice in the life...we can be set free into eternal life or become a part of eternal death

I personally believe there are some who are ungodly and will be be purified during the 1000 year period(before the 2nd resurrection) both Enoch and 2 Esdras hint at this

and if thats the case...its the truly wicked disgusting evil spirits of the world who will be turned over to their own corruption for eternity

 

[&Abel]

btw the notion that sheol/hades is divided into to seperate places seems to have it's roots in Greek mythology but was somehow adopted by some Jews.

no, it has it roots in 1 Enoch, the first scripture ever written(7 generations after adam) quoted in the New Testament and by the Early Church Fathers

Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole")[1], in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", or "pit".[2] Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.
Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Absolute truth]

no, it has it roots in 1 Enoch, the first scripture ever written(7 generations after adam) quoted in the New Testament and by the Early Church Fathers

Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole")[1], in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", or "pit".[2] Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.
Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi &Abel,

It appears your problem with rightly dividing the word of truth is that you are too fixated on 2 books of the whole truth. We are offering our stand of the salvation of all for you to compare to all scripture yet you are not applying it to all of scripture.

You stated that soulsearcher was applying what He thought to be true but God knows what He is and does but then you can apply that same lack of logic to your own theology.

Scripture always clarifies scripture. Scripture can never be used against scripture as your method is being used. All scripture is profitable, not merely parts.

If We fall into the scheme of rendering scripture against scripture than our theology must be the one at fault.

In all of my discussions with you and soulsearcher what is trying to be shown to you and any others is that when you address scripture collectively and weed out our theological errors you find that scripture flows together harmoniously with no contradiction. Whe you reach the truth of scripture you will never struggle with applaying scripture against scripture.

I know you will come back and state that this is what you have done but it is not. We have given major statements of truth concerning the salvation of all. Then, instead of addressing those scriptures in any way you simply quote more scripture which you claim counter claims those we have given you.

We have applied all passages you have offered with those that we use against eternal damnation yet you are failing to see the turth of this.

My question to you is; Is your pride more precious to you than finding truth? If humility were to come to you would you bow to it and give heed to truth?

The reason I ask this is because I had to do this years ago as I was a Hellfire and damnation Christian for about 22 years. I even got into the ministry for a couple of years as a Pastor. I came to the light I now have and was absolutely humbled to realise I was wrong. It's not like I wasted any time in where I was but I felt like I knew nothing at all and had to start over.

I believe this is a spiritual step for the kingdom since we are the clay and God is the potter. He permits us to build ourselves up for awhile and then He crushes us to dust in order to build what He wants us to be and thats exactly what is happening to me. I grow daily more than I have in years in the past. My understanding is being fine tuned like never before and I am better inclined to give an answer to those who ask. The most important thing is that my answers are based in truth and do not put the scriptures in jeopardy when using them. Infact, the clarity is more than I could ever dream possible.

I am sure I can speak for soulsearcher and myself when I state that we have no animosity towards you whatsoever. We are all brothers whether we accept that or not. It is the theology that brings no glory to God that we are standing up against. We all come from this so there can be no judgment from me toward you. I understand what your saying and why your saying it.

I just ask that maybe take a step back and thoroughly review this whole thread and hopefull if God does not open your eyes tothis He at least gives you clarity in another area.

I have always found it profitable to read these long posts a couple of times before replying, then once again as I am replying and it never fails that I missed something, and more times than not it is something big.


Anyways, God Bless, Dave

 

[&Abel]

Hi &Abel,

It appears your problem with rightly dividing the word of truth is that you are too fixated on 2 books of the whole truth. We are offering our stand of the salvation of all for you to compare to all scripture yet you are not applying it to all of scripture.

You stated that soulsearcher was applying what He thought to be true but God knows what He is and does but then you can apply that same lack of logic to your own theology.

Scripture always clarifies scripture. Scripture can never be used against scripture as your method is being used. All scripture is profitable, not merely parts.

If We fall into the scheme of rendering scripture against scripture than our theology must be the one at fault.

In all of my discussions with you and soulsearcher what is trying to be shown to you and any others is that when you address scripture collectively and weed out our theological errors you find that scripture flows together harmoniously with no contradiction. Whe you reach the truth of scripture you will never struggle with applaying scripture against scripture.

I know you will come back and state that this is what you have done but it is not. We have given major statements of truth concerning the salvation of all. Then, instead of addressing those scriptures in any way you simply quote more scripture which you claim counter claims those we have given you.

We have applied all passages you have offered with those that we use against eternal damnation yet you are failing to see the turth of this.

My question to you is; Is your pride more precious to you than finding truth? If humility were to come to you would you bow to it and give heed to truth?

The reason I ask this is because I had to do this years ago as I was a Hellfire and damnation Christian for about 22 years. I even got into the ministry for a couple of years as a Pastor. I came to the light I now have and was absolutely humbled to realise I was wrong. It's not like I wasted any time in where I was but I felt like I knew nothing at all and had to start over.

I believe this is a spiritual step for the kingdom since we are the clay and God is the potter. He permits us to build ourselves up for awhile and then He crushes us to dust in order to build what He wants us to be and thats exactly what is happening to me. I grow daily more than I have in years in the past. My understanding is being fine tuned like never before and I am better inclined to give an answer to those who ask. The most important thing is that my answers are based in truth and do not put the scriptures in jeopardy when using them. Infact, the clarity is more than I could ever dream possible.

I am sure I can speak for soulsearcher and myself when I state that we have no animosity towards you whatsoever. We are all brothers whether we accept that or not. It is the theology that brings no glory to God that we are standing up against. We all come from this so there can be no judgment from me toward you. I understand what your saying and why your saying it.

I just ask that maybe take a step back and thoroughly review this whole thread and hopefull if God does not open your eyes tothis He at least gives you clarity in another area.

I have always found it profitable to read these long posts a couple of times before replying, then once again as I am replying and it never fails that I missed something, and more times than not it is something big.


Anyways, God Bless, Dave

I AM taking all scripture into account

those 2 books just happen to have an abundance on this subject

scripture must be used against mis-use of scripture

twisting of scripture and trying to assign a meaning to a word that was never intended for instance

what major statement of truth was made by either of you? I've seen VERY little by the way of scriptural proof

 

[k2svpete]

I am astonished that there is an argument about sheol. You have put up in the definition above that it is the abode of the dead. Where are the dead? In the ground. No divisions etc. ashes to ashes, dust to dust? From dust you were formed and to dust you shall return? Any of these ringing a bell?

Regarding salvation, again we are told that there is one way, through Christ. All who have heard the gospel have made a choice to believe or not. Those who have will be called to judgement on judgement day. It is in keeping with God's law and nature that those who have not heard the gospel, cannot be judged but as they are still in sin, they are seperated from God and will remain in the ground and it is as if they never were.

I believe the immortal soul doctrine trips up a lot of people. Again this is not a biblical teaching but something that has come in from paganism.

 

[Soul Searcher]

no Jesus does not say that person will be forgiven

I beg to differ.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Pretty clear here if you ask me.

he says that he who believes in me shall be saved

To believe in Jesus is an interesting term that I am afraid many missunderstand. To beleive in Jesus actually means to believe in the teaching of Jesus the truth, the way, the life. Mercy forgiveness, humility charity and so on. Those who follow this way even if they have never heard of him are on the right path and those who don't do so no matter what thier actual beliefs are are far away.

I am a very merciful person but I'm also God fearing and respect that God is perfectly just and knows what hes doing here and that things are gonna work out exactly how they should

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Now I agree that things will work out as they should and as God wills but I also realize that it is his will that all be saved and he knows exactly how to accomplish his will and will do so. What we think, want or do will not change what will be.
I would also submit that it you consider it just to torture someone for eternity and grant someone else eternal bliss based on what they belief then perhaps your concept of justice as well as mercy is a bit flawed.

his thoughts are not your thoughts...regardless of how you may feel about it he truly understands all the aspects of this existence and why things will be the way they will be

Nor are they yours, and herein lies the problem.

we all have a choice in the life...we can be set free into eternal life or become a part of eternal death

There is no such thing as eternal death and it is not our choice.. Remember Jesus says you did not choose me, I choose you. No one can come to him unless he draws them. No one can do anything to be saved only through the power of God. He is the savior and intends to save everyone and is 100% capable of doing exactly as he intends.

I personally believe there are some who are ungodly and will be be purified during the 1000 year period(before the 2nd resurrection) both Enoch and 2 Esdras hint at this

Interesting how much of your belief seem to come from books which were not included in the bible.

and if thats the case...its the truly wicked disgusting evil spirits of the world who will be turned over to their own corruption for eternity

Remember this. God created those wicked spirits as well and if God does torture even one of them for eternity or place them in a place where they will be tortured eternally without mercy then God himself would be the most wicked of all.

Eternal torturous hell is a myth.

 

[Soul Searcher]

no, it has it roots in 1 Enoch, the first scripture ever written(7 generations after adam) quoted in the New Testament and by the Early Church Fathers

So are you trying to say that you know Enoch wrote the book of Enoch and when? Pretty bold assumption there. I find it very unlikely that a single word of it was written by Enoch and also very unlikely that it was on paper untilt several centuries after Enoch was gone if this person ever really existed. meanwhile Greek mythology is pretty old in its own right. Many things we see Christian writings appeared in Greek myth many years earlier.

 

[Soul Searcher]

btw it appears that the oldest fragment of the book of Enoch ever found dates back to at most 200 BC.No one really knows when it may have been written other than it must be at least that old but to assume that Enoch himself wrote it is most likely a serious error in judgment.

 

[&Abel]

The Book of Jubilees (found with Enoch at Qumran)

And in the eleventh jubilee [512-18 A.M.] Jared took to himself a wife, and her name was Baraka, the daughter of Râsûjâl, a daughter of his father's brother, in the fourth week of this jubilee, [522 A.M.] and she bare him a son in the fifth week, in the fourth year of the jubilee, and he called his name Enoch.
And he was the first among men that are born on earth who learnt writing and knowledge and wisdom and who wrote down the signs of heaven according to the order of their months in a book, that men might know the seasons of the years according to the order of their separate months.
And he was the first to write a testimony and he testified to the sons of men among the generations of the earth, and recounted the weeks of the jubilees, and made known to them the days of the years, and set in order the months and recounted the Sabbaths of the years as we made (them), known to him.

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/jubilees/4.htm

 

[&Abel]

chances are if I make a bold statement I have the evidence to back it

 

[&Abel]

1 Enoch

[SIZE=-2]1.[/SIZE] The book written by Enoch-[SIZE=-1][Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, [SIZE=-1](which is)[/SIZE] praised of all men and a judge of all the earth][/SIZE] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm

 

[&Abel]

btw it appears that the oldest fragment of the book of Enoch ever found dates back to at most 200 BC.No one really knows when it may have been written other than it must be at least that old but to assume that Enoch himself wrote it is most likely a serious error in judgment.

just a tip and not trying to be rude

spend more time reading the actual scripture and less analysis of that said scripture

there is much wisdom inside

 

[Soul Searcher]

chances are if I make a bold statement I have the evidence to back it

Not much evidence there. Unless you expect me to think that only Enoch could write down that Enoch wrote it. It may come as a surprise to you but as I understand it it was fairly common to put the name of someone famous on writings even if that person had nothing to do with it. In my opinion if the text really does claim to be written by Enoch that raises even more doubt as to both the accuracy and the intention of the document.

The fact is that no one knows who wrote this text nor when it was written. For that matter no one can be truly sure who wrote any of the books we call the bible much less those not recognized as such.

 

[Soul Searcher]

just a tip and not trying to be rude

spend more time reading the actual scripture and less analysis of that said scripture

there is much wisdom inside

If you pay close attention the bible tells us to test all things hold onto what is good and refrain from evil. This goes for writings as well. One should always test what they read and what they see. If it is true and good it will stand up to the test if not it will fall. Those who are afraid to test likely already suspect they are incorrect but unwilling to admit it.

 

[Absolute truth]

I AM taking all scripture into account

those 2 books just happen to have an abundance on this subject

scripture must be used against mis-use of scripture

twisting of scripture and trying to assign a meaning to a word that was never intended for instance

what major statement of truth was made by either of you? I've seen VERY little by the way of scriptural proof

Hi &Abel,

As I look back on all the replies and scriptural reference I cannot see how you can honestly say that you have seen VERY LITTLE scriptural proof, yet if you compile all those quoted by soul searcher and myself you will see that there is no way you can honestly make this statement. My only conclusion is that you may be just skimming over what is being spoken to you. If there was a chance that we are right about God making all mankind whole would you not desire to truly seek this out to its end and come to the truth about it?

What I am saying is that we have quoted numerous amounts of scripture that claims salvation for all. What I have seen you do is simply offer more scripture whereby you claim says the opposite of those we've quoted. You have not addressed the problem with tieing all scripture together with this method of scholarship. In other words you are simply just taking a theological side instead of testing for the error here as there must be an error since We quote scripture which claims absolute salvation for all and then you counter with passages dealing with the torment of most.

Soul searcher and I have expressed how all of these passages are tied together and continue harmoniously with one another through all scripture.

What we are showing is the translation issue concerning word definitions of timelessness that have snowballed over a few ceturies into the false doctrine of eternal torment. When one continues in this false translation they can NEVER tie all scripture together without contradictions and problems.

Once these errors of translation are considered and proper definitions are applied then all of scripture becomes clear and conscise with no problems.

As for whether or not the book of Enoch is part of the word of truth or not was still written in the same language of the old testament and would also have the errors of translation, and proper definitions should be applied to it as well and you will see that when this is done all scripture begins to open up in ones understanding. It is only by this you can speak in boldness when addressing the truth of the Gospel. One may speak incorrectly in boldness as well if they truly believe they are right but those in error know they are error but they will never admit it until they truly desire the truth. Anything else is driven by pride and self.

Please do not get me wrong, we are not ganging up on you. As you can see there are those on this thread who are in agreement with you but that does not mean they and you are ganging up on us. We are all here to not only teach but also learn and none of us has all the answers and all of us have need of teaching.

My only advice is to consider looking at scripture with a different perception. Error is, in most cases, overcome when one changes, or has their perception changed. Bottom line is it is all up to God so if for whatever reason you choose not to seek these things out than that is the will of God for you at this time. As for eternity I trust the God of scripture to ultimately lead you into all truth in the coming ages as He will for the rest of mankind, not all in this life (age).

God Bless, Dave

 

[Absolute truth]

Hi &Abel,

In clarifying my position on perception, God wants us transformed in every way, not just mentally. He wants our very being to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. "Let us create man in our image", is not just a physical thing as I am sure you know; Therefore, that process of transformation is a process that takes a lifetime for the very elect of God and even still there needs to be the transformation of glorification resulting in a new body.

The lost are simply not being changed now in this age. Their part is in the coming ages wherebye Christ and His elect bring the rest of the harvest in through the lake of fire (sybolic of the judgment of Christ and His elect on the world). "For when thy Judgements are in the earth (in the coming ages) the world WILL learn righteousness" (Isa 26-9). Full conversion comes by way of judgment. First in Christ on the cross then by trials and tribulation in the elect and finally through wrath and indignation on the lost. All are transformed through these methods of processes.

There is no resurrection other than Christ. Jesus said "I am the resurrection". He is the only resurrection and as such the elect are resurrected to glory following this age and the lost are resurrected to judgement in the lake of fire in the next age. Both the elect and the lost are both raise in Christ since Christ is the only resurrection. It is in this lake of fire (here on this earth, not IN the center core of it) that the lost are judged.

Otherwise who exactly is Christ and His elect truly reigning and ruling over if there are none left and all the rest are burning in a literal eternal fire for eternity?

If you do a study of the feasts and Gods commands concerning horticulture you will see that Christian theology voids the great fall harvest, feast of tabernacles, etc. It is Christ and His elect that bring in this great fall harvest and all will join in the feast of tabernacles. The elect are not the great fall harvest. They are the first Christ (wavesheaf) and the firstfruits, "first" implying more to come, then comes the end when the whole harvest is brought in now that there will be workers (the elect).

God Bless, Dave