What do Orthodox think of Worship Music?

[The Liturgist]

Hi, Jesse,
Looking over the recent discussion, it seems to me that you are taking the responses too personally.
What the crowd here is trying to tell you is that, after bcoming Orthodox and worshiping in the Orthodox manner, their sense of what good worship music changed over time from what Protestants and even Catholics (and you) consider “good” worship music. That’s the answer, and if you don’t like it, maybe you shouldn’t have started this thread.

But if you want to try to understand how that could be, instead of challenging us and trying to get us to see things like you, then you are welcome to stick around in fellowship!

Exactly. And you can also ask for this thread to be moved, or we could ask that it be moved, because the whole reason we created St. Justin Marty’rs forum is so that non-Orthodox can debate us. As far as I know we are the only denominational forum on CF.com that has a subforum for people to debate us in.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Looking over the recent discussion, it seems to me that you are taking the responses too personally.

You could say that. If I called the way you worship God "trash" how would you feel?

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm currently denomination-less, but I want to share my thoughts on the music at the church I attend as a new Christian who grew up surrounded by it. While I enjoy Christian music and have no issue with its performance, personally, I find it distracting and it negatively impacts my Sunday service. I believe that worship should be a deeply meaningful experience, and for me, the current music setup doesn't align with that.

Our service dedicates a significant portion of time to a musical performance. A one hour service is begun with 30 minutes of music, complete with elaborate visuals and lyrics on a screen. Initially, I thought memorizing the songs could help me connect with worship, but I often find myself just following along without truly engaging spiritually. The lack of explanation on how to worship this way leaves me completely lost, and the frequent introduction of new songs makes it challenging to remember lyrics.

"Please stand up and worship with us." To me, is a call to action, yet I find myself standing for those 30 minutes, gazing at the screen amidst the atmospheric lights, pondering what's actually unfolding. I'm attempting to decipher the unfamiliar song lyrics, all the while questioning how this aligns with worship.

The music presentation feels more like a show to entertain people rather than fostering genuine worship. In my mind, it seems to prioritize being trendy rather than creating a space for a meaningful connection with God. I personally feel more connected during the pastor's sermon when I'm reflecting on the word of God.

For me, the music becomes a distraction from my relationship with God. I would prefer to spend more time on the message and scripture, even if it meant a shorter service. It's disheartening to consider skipping the first half of the service to maintain my focus on God and the pastor's message. I feel like I'm somehow being bad for not wanting to participate in it.

I understand that others may find worship through the music, and I'm genuinely happy for them. However, for me, it's a negative experience that feels more like a tactic to attract attendees rather than a genuine worship opportunity.

Yes, it does sound like the sort of thing “Seeker-sensitive” churches try to do. Ironically however the Millenials and Generation Z tend to love traditional liturgical worship. The majority of Orthodox churches are actually growing.

 

[The Liturgist]

You could say that. If I called the way you worship God "trash" how would you feel?

I did not intend to call the way you worship God “trash,” since in my mind there is more to worship than just the music that is involved. I beg your forgiveness however for the insensitive nature of my remark. I did not intend to hurt your feelings; I have very strong feelings about CCM because I loved the traditional hymns I grew up with, and I was forced out of my church by a combination of CCM and as the only alternative, a parish with a vindictive homosexual pastor who “had issues” with the language in the Nicene Creed that refers to the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son; in other words, he was an Arian heretic.

But because of this animus that I inadvertently caused between us, I urge you to request this thread be moved to St. Justin’s Corner so that we can work out our differences in a manner that is mutually edifying.

Also I hope to share with you some examples of Orthodox music so you can appreciate the emotional content.

Alternately I can create a thread there, we can forget about this discussion, and we can start with a clean slate.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

or we could ask that it be moved

I don't really care if the thread is moved or not. I'm pretty much done with this topic.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't really care if the thread is moved or not. I'm pretty much done with this topic.

Except I did not mean to hurt your feelings, and I am prepared to reconsider my view and discuss this with you in a more open way. And I want to make it clear I apologize for what was on my part an emotional and impassioned response, motivated by the trauma I experienced with the mainline denomination of which I was a member, which forced me to find another church. Eventually I joined the Orthodox Church roughly a decade ago.

 

[The Liturgist]

One comment (as I see things getting a bit personal suddenly) is that I DO think there is room for a new form of liturgical music outside of Byzantine and Slavic traditions that could evolve over time. Look at Serbian and Georgian chant for example. There is certainly historical examples for such additional forms to take root and flourish.

My thoughts are that Orthodoxy in the New World needs to evolve and sort itself out more independently of Old World influence than currently before we will see it occur. What that will look like and when it occurs is anyone's guess at this point.

I agree with this.

 

[The Liturgist]

Doctrine never saved anyone.

Now, again, begging your pardon for calling the praise and worship music trash, which was thoughtless and insensitive on my part, and I apologize and request your forgiveness, I wanted to highlight this post as another statement that the Orthodox disagree with.

We believe that correct doctrine is extremely important, because it ensures that we are receiving the Gospel handed down from the Apostles and not a counterfeit Gospel. It is what separates the Christian religion from counterfeit Christian cults, like the Mormons, Christian Science, Jehovah’s WItnesses, Palmerian Catholics, and several other supposedly Christian churches which in fact deny essential scriptural doctrines, or modify the Bible (the J/Ws edit John 1:1 in their New World “Translation” because of their rejection of the doctrine of the Incarnation in favor of an Arian Christology). These issues are serious.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe most of all of this myself. I just don't get bogged down with formalities as there is really no point to them.

What struck you as being formalities, out of curiosity?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

What struck you as being formalities, out of curiosity?

Mostly the "we say these specific words on X occasion," and to "make sure everyone knows xyz."

 

[The Liturgist]

Mostly the "we say these specific words on X occasion," and to "make sure everyone knows xyz."

I am still not sure precisely what you mean, but I think it has something to do with our liturgics, but I have posted a thread in St. Justin Martyr’s Corner where you can go into this, and also where we can continue to talk about church music. I would like to share with you some aspects of Orthodox worship and some of our music.

Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

Recently, in another thread in the main Eastern Orthodox forum, I inadvertently made the debate a bit heated by making a stupid, crass and emotionally charged reply of a disparaging nature about Praise and Worship music. To be precise, I called it “trash” and in so doing through negligence...

www.christianforums.com

 

[ArseniusTheSilent]

So God is the enabler for you to, by your own will, be suitable to God, got it. The one problem I have with this is that it puts so much emphasis on our own performance to God. That's a problem. Have you not read, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"? If anyone thinks they are sinless, they make God a liar, in other words. So your idea of theosis is great and all, but if it depended on us to merit salvation, then Christianity would be just like all the other works-based religions. You seem to view grace as a way to become god. That's not something I would want to put myself in the category of. I don't think the Apostles would have thought the same thing. After all, didn't John the Immerser say, "I am not worthy to untie Christ's sandals"? In other words, the difference between us and Christ is infinite and anyone claiming to have arrived at the same level of holiness as Him is surely either lying to everyone else or to themselves.

To rusmeister's points below, Jesse we're NOT attacking your viewpoint(s) and we welcome them. We just try and clarify exactly what our faith teaches to non-Orthodox because it's very easy to lead down the rabbit holes of heresy from our perspective.

To speak of merit is suggest that we are somehow through our own actions able to achieve salvation. This is basically the spiritual trap of moral progress. The idea that somehow I am moving closer or farther away from salvation via my own actions. We are ONLY saved through Christ's mercy. Period. By his grace do we come to know him. We Orthodox know we're sinners. We do NOT believe that we are sinless. This is why we have so many "Lord, Have Mercy"s and "God, Cleanse me a Sinner" etc. throughout our liturgical services and prayers inside and outside of church. We fall down over and over and over again. But we get back up and keep trying. This is why we have sacraments such as Confession etc. that reorient ourselves back to Christ during this lifetime before we repose and face His judgment.

Works are important but it isn't that we are a works-based religion. Ours is a called the living faith for a reason as we do our best to live our lives by Christ's commandments and teachings. However, it is by His mercy that we are saved. Yes, theosis is the goal of our faith. To know God through our faith and His grace but it is not really how you're categorizing it.

Others can probably explain it better but your words as written aren't really a good description of the Orthodox faith per se.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

So God is the enabler for you to, by your own will, be suitable to God, got it. The one problem I have with this is that it puts so much emphasis on our own performance to God. That's a problem. Have you not read, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"? If anyone thinks they are sinless, they make God a liar, in other words. So your idea of theosis is great and all, but if it depended on us to merit salvation, then Christianity would be just like all the other works-based religions. You seem to view grace as a way to become god. That's not something I would want to put myself in the category of. I don't think the Apostles would have thought the same thing. After all, didn't John the Immerser say, "I am not worthy to untie Christ's sandals"? In other words, the difference between us and Christ is infinite and anyone claiming to have arrived at the same level of holiness as Him is surely either lying to everyone else or to themselves.

Yet most CCM is all based on what "I" can do. I even pointed that out in the hymn you posted: "I" will follow.

Amy Grant's, "I" have decided...

There are Orthodox members who are members of secular bands. One of my friends attends the same Greek church as Chris Hillman, who was the bassist of the Byrds.

Chris Hillman: Well, yeah. I’m a member of the Greek Orthodox faith, having been an Evangelical Christian back in the 80’s, and then I converted to the orthodox faith. Yeah, I’m very much devoted to that, but I don’t get in people’s face about it, or try and convert anybody! But it is my own personal belief with my family, and I sing in the orthodox choir every Sunday - sing tenor - which is really Byzantine. Part of the liturgy that they do every week, and so it’s a completely different kind of music to what I do on stage, which is bluegrass. And even when we do gospel stuff, it’s out of the old Baptist style, and Herb and I do old gospel songs in our show. It’s really completely different. And then on Sundays when I’m in town, when I’m home, I sing these very old Byzantine hymns that you would hear in a monastery. But actually, both types of music embrace each other, if you follow me. I mean I get a lot out of the church singing as well as the other. And actually I get wonderful ideas from singing in a completely different style.​

​

Heck, three of members of the punk band Luxury are OCA priests.

 

[Chesterton]

One of my friends attends the same Greek church as Chris Hillman, who was the bassist of the Byrds.

Interesting that Fr. Stephen Freeman was in a band that opened for the Byrds, and Alice Cooper. I wonder if Hillman and Freeman met back then.

Heck, three of members of the punk band Luxury are OCA priests.

I'm a former punk musician myself.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Interesting that Fr. Stephen Freeman was in a band that opened for the Byrds, and Alice Cooper. I wonder if Hillman and Freeman met back then.

I'm a former punk musician myself.

He was??? I never would have expected that.

Nice I was introduced to the punk scene by a high school girlfriend in the mid-80s, Dead Kennedys, Violent Femme, Sex Pistols, Ramones, etc. Even 40 years later, I wonder what became of her rat tail

I used to play guitar but haven't touched them in years.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I don't listen to music unless it is at least Christian-influenced. But I like plenty of metal. I even had a stint where I would do video reviews of albums I liked on YouTube. Never got into punk.

 

[Lukaris]

I met Billy Idol once right before he became massively popular. Generation X ( his original punk band) had disbanded &. his 1982 single “ Hot in the City” was entering the charts. He was playing in smaller American venues at this point. We were still in high school and a couple of my friends ( not me) really had the punk look down. Billy saw us & was impressed & was trying to actually get us into the bar he was playing. We couldn’t get in & he was even telling us to call our parents to get us in.

 

[Chesterton]

Sex Pistols

I was at the Pistols infamous Randy's Rodeo show in '78. I was an early adopter of punk, ha.

We couldn’t get in & he was even telling us to call our parents to get us in.

You should've asked him to call your parents for you. "Hello, ma'am? You don't know me but I'm going to be real famous in a couple of years..."

 

[prodromos]

You realize every tradition of Christianity says this, right?

Most of us were raised in another Christian tradition before being led to Orthodoxy. We've experienced what those other traditions of Christianity have to offer, some of us more than one. What @FenderTL5 said about the depth of teaching in the Orthodox Church as compared to other Churches, is not just some throw away line.

 

[prodromos]

Doctrine never saved anyone.

False doctrine leads to counterfeit Christ's. Paul admonishes us to hold fast to what we were taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, you don't do that by having wishy washy theology in the songs you sing in Church. Hymns are a powerful teaching tool. It is much easier to remember words when they are put to song, so the Orthodox Church is careful not to have incorrect teaching present in her hymns.