What do Orthodox think of Worship Music?

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Hi.

I am just wondering what the Orthodox (and variants) think of traditional contemporary worship music that is sung in many Evangelical churches today? I understand that the Orthodox generally do chants (which are beautiful!) but what do Orthodox think of contemporary worship music?

Here is one that I like (especially the lyrics):

 

[ArmyMatt]

it’s fine if it’s in your playlist, but doesn’t belong in Church. most invokes way too much emotion, which distracts from prayer.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

it’s fine if it’s in your playlist, but doesn’t belong in Church. most invokes way too much emotion, which distracts from prayer.

Interesting. I would think emotion and prayer go together. Plenty of emotion in the prayers in the Psalms, for example.

Could you tell me more about what you mean? Maybe you think it is sensationalism or something? I agree that sometimes people get carried away with being emotional rather than directing their attention towards God in worship. If this is what you mean, I can see what you are saying. However, there have been times when I felt God's presence while listening to worship music that caused me to weep. I understand that crowds can get emotional. But even if it is the emotion, it is still directed to God.

 

[FenderTL5]

Hi.

I am just wondering what the Orthodox (and variants) think of traditional contemporary worship music that is sung in many Evangelical churches today? I understand that the Orthodox generally do chants (which are beautiful!) but what do Orthodox think of contemporary worship music?

Here is one that I like (especially the lyrics):

I still like the band Iona, a lot.
I much preferred CCM that was more casual and had pop sensibilities suitable for listening to in the car or around the house. I quit listening in the late 90s early 00s when it shifted to the modern P&W style. I'll turn on a radio station occasionally but, I'm not a fan. I'd rather put on a piece of vinyl from the 80s.
I agree with Fr Matt, it's okay for casual listening but has no place in the Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Interesting. I would think emotion and prayer go together. Plenty of emotion in the prayers in the Psalms, for example.

Could you tell me more about what you mean? Maybe you think it is sensationalism or something? I agree that sometimes people get carried away with being emotional rather than directing their attention towards God in worship. If this is what you mean, I can see what you are saying. However, there have been times when I felt God's presence while listening to worship music that caused me to weep. I understand that crowds can get emotional. But even if it is the emotion, it is still directed to God.

emotions are created, prayer is with the Uncreated. prayer takes us beyond emotion.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

emotions are created, prayer is with the Uncreated. prayer takes us beyond emotion.

Is that the idea of theosis? TBH, it is a topic I do not know much about. When I pray, I often feel emotions such as awe or wonder or humility.

 

[rusmeister]

I’d say that in prayer, we are supposed to be learning how to talk to God and the saints, not focus on feelings manufactured or evoked by music. I think it is real wisdom that we don’t use musical instruments at all.

But as to how we see heterodox hymns and songs, aside from what has already been said, I’d add that in general, we have to condescend from Orthodox hymns, hammered out over a thousand or fifteen hundred years, to lyrics that gradually become shallower and shallower over time, as western heterodoxy fell further and further away from the Orthodox view. But a lot of stuff right up to the middle of the twentieth century, is fine for private listening, singing in the car, or whatever. As long as the words express what we do teach, they’re fine. But just as Christmas carols descended from our Nativity hymns, to the carols we know and love, to be mixed with things having nothing to do with the Nativity and even the comic and absurd (“Grandma got run over by a reindeer”), so other hymns, and songs performed by “worship/praise bands” especially those composed in the last 30-40 years, move further and further away from anything we would ever express in worship.

Some are moving and relatively deep. “It is Well With My Soul” (19th century), for example, expresses how we ought to adjust our attitude to adverities and tragedies in life. But it’s still more about our own feelings and experiences than about how we ought to learn to communicate with God and the saints.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is that the idea of theosis? TBH, it is a topic I do not know much about. When I pray, I often feel emotions such as awe or wonder or humility.

theosis is becoming like God over eternity. so yes, prayer which is beyond anything created is a part of that.

 

[HTacianas]

Hi.

I am just wondering what the Orthodox (and variants) think of traditional contemporary worship music that is sung in many Evangelical churches today? I understand that the Orthodox generally do chants (which are beautiful!) but what do Orthodox think of contemporary worship music?

Here is one that I like (especially the lyrics):

Honestly it's one of my pet peeves. The reason for it is that there is a line between music in worship, and music for the sake of the performer. Orthodox worship music comes in different varieties depending on where you are. Sometimes the entire congregation sing psalms together as a form of worship, but sometimes it is a choir that sings in tones. But it is not like a protestant choir singing hymns. And it certainly isn't an individual singing. That's probably where the rift is. Is an individual singing to worship God or are they singing for their own accolades or gratification? When most contemporary Christian groups sing the focus is on the group itself, and as @ArmyMatt commented, the focus is not on God and the music becomes a distraction.

Someone commented once that attending the Liturgy is to attend a worship service, but attending a protestant service is more of a concert followed by a lecture.

 

[Wings like Eagles]

attending a protestant service is more of a concert followed by a lecture.

This is very accurate in some services I have attended.
Forgive me, but I am going to use that in the future.

 

[gzt]

Honestly it's one of my pet peeves. The reason for it is that there is a line between music in worship, and music for the sake of the performer. Orthodox worship music comes in different varieties depending on where you are. Sometimes the entire congregation sing psalms together as a form of worship, but sometimes it is a choir that sings in tones. But it is not like a protestant choir singing hymns. And it certainly isn't an individual singing. That's probably where the rift is. Is an individual singing to worship God or are they singing for their own accolades or gratification? When most contemporary Christian groups sing the focus is on the group itself, and as @ArmyMatt commented, the focus is not on God and the music becomes a distraction.

Someone commented once that attending the Liturgy is to attend a worship service, but attending a protestant service is more of a concert followed by a lecture.

Yes, somebody once said something that seemed fairly correct for me: that for the "low" church the only sacrament is music.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I don't understand how you can separate emotion from worship. I allude again to the Psalms which seems to be the blueprint for how to worship with music properly in the Bible.

Of course, Protestant churches are not perfect including doing worship music on Sunday, but I don't believe any church tradition is perfect. Each tradition picks up on a certain truth but does not have the whole thing. It's much the same as us as individuals. No individual is without sin, but that does not mean that they will not be with Christ in the NHNE.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't understand how you can separate emotion from worship.

you can, and we do. there are writings which testify to this going back to the 100s.

 

[HTacianas]

I don't understand how you can separate emotion from worship. I allude again to the Psalms which seems to be the blueprint for how to worship with music properly in the Bible.

Of course, Protestant churches are not perfect including doing worship music on Sunday, but I don't believe any church tradition is perfect. Each tradition picks up on a certain truth but does not have the whole thing. It's much the same as us as individuals. No individual is without sin, but that does not mean that they will not be with Christ in the NHNE.

You are right that emotion cannot be separated from worship, but it depends on what the emotion is and what is causing it. For example, Carrie Underwood does an excellent rendition of How Great Thou Art, and it inspires emotion, but it isn't worship. Listening to Carrie Underwood has nothing to do with God, it has everything to do with Carrie Underwood. The singer becomes the center of attention. An Orthodox Choir is really just something on the sidelines.

And I agree with you that no Church tradition can be perfect, the Orthodox Church has held and preserved the fullness of the truth of the Gospel since the beginning and continues to do so. Reading the beliefs or statements of faith of other groups reminds of playing the game Battleship. It goes miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, miss, hit..... The statements of faith of the Orthodox Church contains all hits and no misses.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

you can, and we do. there are writings which testify to this going back to the 100s.

That's fine, but the Psalms are a lot older than the 100s.

The statements of faith of the Orthodox Church contains all hits and no misses.

We could debate this, but I did not come here to debate with Orthodox people here.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

@ArmyMatt, if you could please address my argument about the Psalms being the blueprint for worship that would be great! I would at least like to know the reason why the Psalms are dismissed as a valid way to worship God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

@ArmyMatt, if you could please address my argument about the Psalms being the blueprint for worship that would be great! I would at least like to know the reason why the Psalms are dismissed as a valid way to worship God.

because they’re not the blueprint. the blueprint is, according to Hebrews, what Moses experienced on the Mountain, which was before the Psalms. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Abel, Joseph, etc all worshipped God before Psalms.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

because they’re not the blueprint. the blueprint is, according to Hebrews, what Moses experienced on the Mountain, which was before the Psalms. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Abel, Joseph, etc all worshipped God before Psalms.

Well, that is true that those people worshipped before the Psalms came about. But then what is the purpose of the Psalms?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Matt, part of the way that all those people worshipped God was through animal sacrifice. But obviously, we do not do that anymore. Now, I am not saying that the way the Orthodox people worship cannot be worship, heaven forbid! But I do think we can take cues from the Psalms on how to worship. Otherwise, I do not know the significance of the Psalms in the Bible (in the exact middle of the Bible no less).

Help me understand how when David wrote the Psalms that he was not worshipping God. If he was, then why can't we still do that today?

I mean this in all respect. I just want to understand, but I do not understand why emotion must be stripped from worship. Is it just certain emotions that you don't agree with having in worship music as @HTacianas says? I would argue that no matter what we are doing we are experiencing some manifestation of emotion. Maybe you do not believe that emotions should be necessarily tied to worship? If that is what you are saying, I agree. But I also think that God feels emotions so it is not wrong for us to feel emotions. "Jesus wept" for example. And I cannot help but think of the emotions that Christ Himself experienced when he sang that hymn before His death.

 

[gzt]

I would think of worship in Ancient Israel as more about, like, the sacrifices in the Temple (this is obviously not the entirety of it and doesn't conflict with what's going on in the Psalms)?
EDIT: Ah, I see that this has been mentioned wihle I was typing.