What do Orthodox think of Worship Music?

Lukaris

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If an Orthodox Christian wants to listen & be inspired by this Christian praise music, that’s fine. Surely it should seem to be wholesome, constructive etc. especially vs secular expressions out there. I don’t know what the big deal is but our liturgical worship is distinct from this. Our liturgy is structured on an overall framework of preaching the Gospel usually culminated in the priestly homily. The second part of the liturgy culminates with the Eucharist which is the sacramental aspect of worship.

I am totally free to still listen to a good Methodist hymn like “Christ the Lord is Risen Today” by Wesley but it is not to be included with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
 
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ArseniusTheSilent

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One comment (as I see things getting a bit personal suddenly) is that I DO think there is room for a new form of liturgical music outside of Byzantine and Slavic traditions that could evolve over time. Look at Serbian and Georgian chant for example. There is certainly historical examples for such additional forms to take root and flourish.

My thoughts are that Orthodoxy in the New World needs to evolve and sort itself out more independently of Old World influence than currently before we will see it occur. What that will look like and when it occurs is anyone's guess at this point.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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And again I say, it's certainly not up to me what different traditions of Christianity use as worship in their services. That's certainly not even something I could change if I wanted to. And I don't want to change the way other traditions worship as well. I believe in a global church. Just as there are different ethnicities, there are different forms of traditions of Christianity. I personally believe this is a beautiful thing. After all, Christ is still head of the Church and I think Christ knew that it would work out like this and it does not come as a surprise to Him to see different forms of Christianity and worship. I think as long as we have a solid foundation of God and Christ anyone can be saved. Yes, there are heretics out there and that is to be avoided. But I am not here to police how other forms of Christianity are run. As long as the tradition is orthodox (small o) I think different traditions are fine.
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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Personally, I like the more “traditional style” Protestant hymns like “Amazing Grace” or “Nearer my God to Thee”.

I cry to those songs and I always have. Especially if I’m going through a hard time. I still listen to it outside of worship/prayer.

But modern evangelical praise music? I can only think of a very very few (like two) that I actually like (even outside of Protestant Worship). I’m not sure why? Perhaps it’s not calm enough? Or it feels ungenuine? It’s hard to explain. But if it’s outside of worship however, I DO think it’s much better than listening to actual secular filth.

So yeah. That’s what I think. ‍:dontcare:
 
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The Liturgist

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If you think the song in the OP is "trash" I'm afraid you have no idea what the world is singing about. It's like you have never heard of Nicki Minaj or something. If singing about self-sacrificial love is "trash" I'm afraid you have left your prior fellowship for the wrong reasons.

I’ve never heard of Nicky Minaj. I have heard of St. Ephraim the Syrian, St. Romanos the Melodist, the Syriac Orthodox composer St. Jacob of sarugh, who was not Eastern Orthodox but whose Aramaic-language hymns are very very beautiful, especially his metrical homily on the Eucharist, Haw Nurone, which is I believe entirely compatible with Eastern Orthodox Eucharistic theology (since the Syriac Orthodox like the Eastern Orthodox believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist), and among more recent composers of liturgical music, I am familiar with the famous Western composers from the Renaissance on, such as Palestrina, Byrd, JS Bach and his sons, especially CPE Bach, whose Requiem mass is exquisite, Schubert, Charles Wesley, S. Sebastian Wesley (a grand nephew of John and Charles Wesley) and more recently, George Dyson, Herbert Howells, Vaughan Williams, Healey Willan, CV Stanford, T. Tertius Noble and Francis Jackson, who died last year at the age of 104, and John Rutter, who is still composing, and among Eastern composers, in addition to the well known Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff, several composers more specialized in church music such as Dmitri Bortniansky, Pavel Chesnokov, Artem Vedel, Alexander Archangelsky, Alexander Gretchaninov, and more recently among Church Slavonic composers, Roman Hurko and Kurt Sander, and then on the Greek side, Tikey Zes, who recently reposed, and Michaelides, and the Estonian Orthodox composer Avro Part, who has composed Orthodox and Western liturgical music as well as sacred classical music, in which category George Fredrich Handel also deserves mention for his oratorios such as The Messiah, which is an exquisite piece of music about the life, passion and resurrection of Christ our True God, and also the Armenian composers Komitas and Yekmalian, who composed the most beautiful and most widely used settings of the Armenian Apostolic liturgy (I prefer Komitas, but Yekmalian is more frequently used; there is also a simplified version by a composer whose last name is Manas if I recall, the Armenians are Oriental Orthodox like the Syriac Orthodox, but benefitted from the work of Komitas and Yekmalian in the 19th century who were brilliant composers and ethnomusicologists, whose work helped to preserve traditional Armenian music while also enhancing the quality of the liturgical service). Of course the identities of most Orthodox composers are lost to history; I have no idea who came up with the classic Byzantine melody for the hymn known as the Trisagion, which is also used by the Oriental Orthodox, specifically the Coptic Orthodox of Egypt, who incorporated it into their idiosyncratic system of melismatic chant known as Tasbeha.

Byzantine Chant was also the basis for Gregorian Chant, Ambrosian Chant and Syriac Chant, and various eight tone , all of which use eight modes, a system inherited from Byzantine Chant. Without Gregorian chant, we wouldn’t have four-part harmony as it emerged in the Renaissance, still using the eight modes inherited from Byzantine Chant. Without four part harmony, we wouldn’t have tonality. Without tonality, we wouldn’t have Baroque music such as Monteverdi, Schutz, Buxtehude, Bach, Handel, Vivaldi and Bortniansky. Without the Baroque composers, we wouldn’t have Classical and Early Romantic composers such as Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert. And without them, we would not have the great 19th and early 20th century composers like Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, Sullivan, Elgar, and without them we wouldn’t have 20th century music, we wouldn’t have the folk music of Latin America such as the Tangos of Australian composer Astor Piazzola or the Sambas of Brasil, African American spirituals, the Blues, Dixieland, and Jazz music which derived from them and from Latin styles, and we wouldn’t have swing music like Artie Shaw and Glenn Miller, and without them we wouldn’t have popular music, since rock n’ roll started as a degenerate reaction to the elegant swing music, based on the Blues, just as later forms of popular music reacted against the early rock music, and CCM wouldn’t exist.

So CCM and Praise and Worship music as I see it provides a thin layer of trite, emotional Christian lyrics of a predominantly German Pietist theological orientation onto musical forms like Hard Rock, Classic Rock and other styles, which either are degenerate offshoots of the Blues, or reactions to or against those, composed by overpaid “Rock Stars” who embraced a decadent drug-fueled lifestyle, often dying young, and there is some reason to believe the record companies want it that way, in that rock stars are actually more profitable dead than alive due to the distribution of royalties in their contracts, and it is clear that the inner circle of Elvis and Michael Jackson, among others, supplied them with addictive and dangerous medication and in the case of Jackson, a quack doctor who provided him with stimulants and anesthetics, which he was not qualified to administer since he was a cardiologist and not an anaesthesiologist, but I digress.

The Orthodox Church has been singing about the self-sacrificial love of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ since the year 33 AD, and we do it with music composed entirely by members of the Church (with some influence from Second Temple Judaism) within the context of Christianity. Indeed our music is so good that the Muslims ripped us off; Islamic music is derived from Syriac, Coptic and Byzantine Greek music, right down to its "borrowing" of our eight tones. And in a sense, CCM is a degenerate distant descendant of Byzantine Chant, since CCM requires four part harmony and tonality to exist, and those would not have been developed were it not for the foundation provided by the eight modes and the experiments with polyphony in the Renaissance.

And polyphony would not have happened had it not been for the Orthodox Christian invention of antiphonal music, which was implemented by St. Ignatius the Martyr in Antioch, of which he was the third bishop (the first was St. Peter the Apostle, who was BIshop of Antioch before he moved to Rome and founded the Roman Church together with St. Paul and his disciple St. Mark the Evangelist, who in turn founded the Church of Alexandria). St. Ignatius had the idea for antiphony when he dreamt of two choirs of angels singing in turns, responding to each other in praise of God.

And speaking of self-sacrificial love, St. Ignatius had such a love for Christ and for his flock that he submitted to arrest by the Roman authorities in Antioch, protecting members of his church from being arrested and put to death by offering himself in their place, and then during the long process of imprisonment and transportation to Rome he wrote epistles to several major Christian churches, providing doctrinal instruction, and urging them, among other things, not to try to rescue him or interfere with his pending martyrdom. "Birth pangs are upon me" he wrote, imploring the members of the Church in Rome to "Suffer me to become human."
 
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The Liturgist

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Personally, I like the more “traditional style” Protestant hymns like “Amazing Grace” or “Nearer my God to Thee”.

I cry to those songs and I always have. Especially if I’m going through a hard time. I still listen to it outside of worship/prayer.

But modern evangelical praise music? I can only think of a very very few (like two) that I actually like (even outside of Protestant Worship). I’m not sure why? Perhaps it’s not calm enough? Or it feels ungenuine? It’s hard to explain. But if it’s outside of worship however, I DO think it’s much better than listening to actual secular filth.

So yeah. That’s what I think. ‍:dontcare:

Those hymns are very beautiful and I left the mainline Protestant church I attended because the choice was between a parish with a flaming gay pastor who subscribed to the Arian heresy, or a parish which had a more theologically conservative pastor but engaged in relentless Christian Classical Music, to the extent that one summer morning, they put a surfboard on the altar in order so the praise band could sing covers of the Beachboys with inane nominally Christian lyrics. I still shudder at the thought of “Worship USA”, written to the tune of “Surfin USA” which is a piece of popular music I greatly disliked to begin with.
 
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The Liturgist

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What I think is missing here is what saves a person. I think this is a monergistic thing. God can use whatever means He wants to do that. Perhaps it is learning the beauty of a doctrine that does it or perhaps it is a CCM worship tune that does it. I don't limit the way God saves a person.

The Eastern Orthodox Church (and our Oriental Orthodox brethren) reject Monergism; in the case of the Eastern Orthodox Church it was declared a heresy at the Fifth Ecumenical Synod, also known as the Second Council of Constantinople, in the early sixth century.

We believe that, to quote Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, the one thing God cannot force us to do is to love Him, and by loving God voluntarily and receiving the Holy Spirit through Baptism and Chrismation, and by partaking of the uncreated grace of God directly, and through prayer, and especially through the sacraments of Holy Communion and Reconciliation and the Annointing of the Sick with Oil, we are healed bodily and spiritually, and given the strength to, with the help of the uncreated grace of the Holy Spirit, conquer the passions through fasting, prayer and almsgiving and other spiritual exercises, and in doing this, we work towards Theosis, or deification, which is the process of becoming perfect even as the Father in Heaven is perfect, which Metropolitan Kallistos Ware argues will take an infinite amount of time for us to achieve, but each step in the process of Theosis is more rewarding and joyful than the last, meaning we have something to look forward to in the world to come. To quote St. Athanasius, God became man so that we could become god. This does not mean we become additional members of the Holy Trinity, for indeed the Divine Essence is entirely incomprehensible to humans and is likely to remain so in the World to Come, but rather that, glorified through theosis achieved through cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit, we become by grace what Christ is by nature, fully participating in the uncreated energies of God.

who by the way is the guy who came up with the definitive list of the 27 canonical books of the New Testament, omitting works that were psuedepigraphical or not of apostolic origin, such as the Epistle of Barnabas or the Shepherd of Hermas, which many people wanted included, and insisting on the inclusion of some works which were at the time controversial and regarded as apocryphal by many, such as the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian (the formal title of the book more commonly known as Revelation), and the Epistle to the Hebrews.

For I think if in the Eschaton we wound up in a New Jerusalem where we lived a hedonistic lifestyle in a suburban landscape, whether those suburbs consisted of detached homes or tower blocks, driving around in heavenly SUVs, well, that would probably mean we were not in the New Jerusalem but had instead been consigned to the Outer Darkness.
 
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The Liturgist

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Personally, I like the more “traditional style” Protestant hymns like “Amazing Grace” or “Nearer my God to Thee”.

I cry to those songs and I always have. Especially if I’m going through a hard time. I still listen to it outside of worship/prayer.

But modern evangelical praise music? I can only think of a very very few (like two) that I actually like (even outside of Protestant Worship). I’m not sure why? Perhaps it’s not calm enough? Or it feels ungenuine? It’s hard to explain. But if it’s outside of worship however, I DO think it’s much better than listening to actual secular filth.

So yeah. That’s what I think. ‍:dontcare:

Oh by the way, we do have Western Rite VIcarates, and the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate, while primarily using Gregorian Chant and music close to that used by Anglicans, is probably open to the extra-liturgical use of some of these traditional hymns, which by the way are called Chorales to distinguish them from other types of hymns such as Troparia, Kontakia, Graduales, Alleluias, Anthems and so on. Chorales were first popularized by Martin Luther, and he, along with Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, Arthur Sullivan, and the eccentric Graf von Zinzendorf, on whose estate the surviving Moravians were allowed to settle (unfortunately, however, the pietism of Zinzendorf and his peculiar theology came to dominate their denomination, forcing out those aspects of Eastern Orthodoxy that Saints Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague had struggled to reintroduce when forming the Czech church of which the Moravians are descended; it was an attempt to restore the Eastern Orthodoxy that the Czechs and Slovaks had been deprived of when Austria conquered their territory, and for this reason Saint Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague were glorified by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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The Eastern Orthodox Church (and our Oriental Orthodox brethren) reject Monergism; in the case of the Eastern Orthodox Church it was declared a heresy at the Fifth Ecumenical Synod, also known as the Second Council of Constantinople, in the early sixth century.

We believe that, to quote Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, the one thing God cannot force us to do is to love Him, and by loving God voluntarily and receiving the Holy Spirit through Baptism and Chrismation, and by partaking of the uncreated grace of God directly, and through prayer, and especially through the sacraments of Holy Communion and Reconciliation and the Annointing of the Sick with Oil, we are healed bodily and spiritually, and given the strength to, with the help of the uncreated grace of the Holy Spirit, conquer the passions through fasting, prayer and almsgiving and other spiritual exercises, and in doing this, we work towards Theosis, or deification, which is the process of becoming perfect even as the Father in Heaven is perfect, which Metropolitan Kallistos Ware argues will take an infinite amount of time for us to achieve, but each step in the process of Theosis is more rewarding and joyful than the last, meaning we have something to look forward to in the world to come. To quote St. Athanasius, God became man so that we could become god. This does not mean we become additional members of the Holy Trinity, for indeed the Divine Essence is entirely incomprehensible to humans and is likely to remain so in the World to Come, but rather that, glorified through theosis achieved through cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit, we become by grace what Christ is by nature, fully participating in the uncreated energies of God.

who by the way is the guy who came up with the definitive list of the 27 canonical books of the New Testament, omitting works that were psuedepigraphical or not of apostolic origin, such as the Epistle of Barnabas or the Shepherd of Hermas, which many people wanted included, and insisting on the inclusion of some works which were at the time controversial and regarded as apocryphal by many, such as the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian (the formal title of the book more commonly known as Revelation), and the Epistle to the Hebrews.

For I think if in the Eschaton we wound up in a New Jerusalem where we lived a hedonistic lifestyle in a suburban landscape, whether those suburbs consisted of detached homes or tower blocks, driving around in heavenly SUVs, well, that would probably mean we were not in the New Jerusalem but had instead been consigned to the Outer Darkness.

So God is the enabler for you to, by your own will, be suitable to God, got it. The one problem I have with this is that it puts so much emphasis on our own performance to God. That's a problem. Have you not read, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"? If anyone thinks they are sinless, they make God a liar, in other words. So your idea of theosis is great and all, but if it depended on us to merit salvation, then Christianity would be just like all the other works-based religions. You seem to view grace as a way to become god. That's not something I would want to put myself in the category of. I don't think the Apostles would have thought the same thing. After all, didn't John the Immerser say, "I am not worthy to untie Christ's sandals"? In other words, the difference between us and Christ is infinite and anyone claiming to have arrived at the same level of holiness as Him is surely either lying to everyone else or to themselves.
 
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The Liturgist

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Also, I think the idea that king David was somehow a stoic monastery monk who showed no emotion in his communication to God through the Psalms is absurd. Same goes for Job. If you think Job was emotionless when he repented, that's kinda weird.

I don’t think that. Conversely, I also would never think St. David was a raving, angsty, moody fruitcake with no control over his passions, and an insatiable desire to dance to a 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm characteristic of rock music, a rhythm that for all we know did not exist in ancient Israel, which is implied by some praise and worship attempts at setting his Psalms to music, or portions thereof, and the problem with CCM music is that it enflames the passions, which Christianity requires us to conquer. I for one believe he and thes other Psalmists composed the Psalms with reverence and solemnity, whether they were joyous such as the Gradual Psalms and Psalms 150-151 , or imprecatory, such as Super Flumina, or Psalms of repentence, or Psalms asking for forgiveness, such as Psalm 50, and indeed calmness would be required when writing Psalm 118, which is at once didactic, meditative and rich in theology and meaning to such an extent that describing its literal and figurative greatness requires a superabundance of superlatives.

By the way, traditional -Rabinnical, Ethiopian and Karaite Jewish cantors and their Samaritan counterparts do not sing the Psalms in an over the top emotional manner, which is not the case with some of the other music used in synagogues, which does tend to be over-emotional and operatic in the “Choral Synagogues” that were built starting in the 19th century, less so in the simpler Sephardic and Yemeni and other Middle Eastern Jewish traditions, such as Karaite Judaism, whose music is remarkably evocative of the music of Middle Eastern Christian churches.

As far as emotions, we are not robots and we don’t want to become robots; Orthodox music is exquisitely beautiful and provides emotional calm, and allows one to appreciate the deep theological meaning in the Psalms that were written by King David and other Psalmists, as well as other Scriptural canticles, for example, the Magnificat. Our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary was clearly ecstatic when she sang that hymn, the Evangelical Canticle which is the basis for Ode IX in the type of Orthodox hymn called a Canon, but the ecstasy she experienced was of Divine origin, since she was overjoyed at having been chosen and having agreed to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and when St. Elizabeth venerated her as the “Mother of my Lord” this helped the Mother of God in her journey of understanding Who was in her blessed womb.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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but the ecstasy she experienced was of Divine origin

That's rather convenient, isn't it? I suppose it is a loophole because you think Mary was sinless? Which is stated nowhere in scripture?
 
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The Liturgist

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So God is the enabler for you to, by your own will, be suitable to God, got it. The one problem I have with this is that it puts so much emphasis on our own performance to God. That's a problem. Have you not read, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"? If anyone thinks they are sinless, they make God a liar, in other words. So your idea of theosis is great and all, but if it depended on us to merit salvation, then Christianity would be just like all the other works-based religions. You seem to view grace as a way to become god. That's not something I would want to put myself in the category of. I don't think the Apostles would have thought the same thing. After all, didn't John the Immerser say, "I am not worthy to untie Christ's sandals"? In other words, the difference between us and Christ is infinite and anyone claiming to have arrived at the same level of holiness as him is surely either lying to everyone else or to themselves.

Once again, you display a profound ignorance of Orthodox Christian theology. Just because we believe in synergy does not mean we believe we are sinless; on the contrary, all Eastern Orthodox Christians confess to being the chief of sinners in the prayers we say before receiving communion, and also during the Divine Liturgy, the priest implores us “Forgive me, brethren, for I have sinned.” And on Forgiveness Sunday the day before Lent begins on Clean Monday (rather than Ash Wednesday, which is a Western liturgical practice), we go around to everyone in our parish and assure them that we forgive them for any offense they may have caused, and obviously we also practice forgiveness the other 364 days of the year.

In fact the Orthodox Church does not guarantee salvation to the faithful in the way that some Protestant churches do, in that we do not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. I once heard a Protestant justify her telling a lie on the basis that God would forgive her. An Orthodox Christian would never do that. We recognize we are horrible sinners, but the Gospel gives us the hope that God might forgive us. Furthermore, it also gives us hope that God will help us to sin less in this life, and eventually, after a potentially infinite but unknown amount of time, we might become perfect, but that surely happens in the world to come. However, the experience of the church is that some of us our saved, and a few of these who are saved we even find out about, and these persons, glorified by God and venerated by the Church as saints as a result of martyrdom or confessing Christ and being tortured for it, or other acts of what the Roman Catholics call “heroic virtue”, while still guilty of voluntary sin at some point in their life (except for the Theotokos, who we venerate the most out of all the saints because she managed to avoid committing voluntary sin, but even then, she still required salvation through Christ our God). But since the identity of most saints is not known with certainty, we have the Feast of All Saints on the first Sunday after Pentecost (which is a Trinitarian feast in the Orthodox Church because God the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from God the Father, descended on that day and began indwelling the Holy Apostles as promised by Christ our God, so a separate Trinity Sunday as exists in the West is not required). And I hope that all Orthodox Christians and all Christians in general who believe faithfully are among the saints, but I do not know, and Scripture warns us that some will be damned, and it might well be that some Orthodox Christians who are hypocrites and fail to repent are not saved. This life was given to us for repentence.

Also, because the Orthodox Church is focused on metanoia (repentence, although the literal meaning of the Greek word metanoia is “to change your mind), which includes remorse, confessing sins, receiving absolution and working to fight the passions which tempt us to sin, which is no easy task, indeed, it is the hardest of tasks, but we believe we must try to do this, this is another reason why CCM would be so inappropriate in our churches.

Repentence, the process of fighting the passions and overcoming sin, is a solemn business, and so even Orthodox hymns which have an emotional aspect, such as some of the beautiful Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox hymns, are solemn and reverent. Solemn because of the task of repentence, and reverent because where two or three are gathered together in the name of Christ our God, there He is amongst us, and we believe we should act reverently in His presence, rather than dancing as one would at a disco, which I have seen some Christians call "worship."
 
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That's rather convenient, isn't it? I suppose it is a loophole because you think Mary was sinless? Which is stated nowhere in scripture?

We don’t believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception; the Mother of God was still subject to ancestral sin and required salvation from Christ just like all of us. But she clearly was free from voluntary sin, as this is implied in Scripture through the typological prophecies of the Incarnation.

By the way are you aware you are not permitted to debate Eastern Orthodox doctrine and theology in this forum? If you want to debate with us, we have a subforum for that located here: St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr

Or you can post a thread about how much you dislike us because we dislike your preferred musical style and have different ideas about theology in the Denomination Specific Theology forum, where you will doubtless attract sympathetic replies from the smalll minority of Calvinists who falsely accuse us of idolatry and Pelagianism (most Calvinists, like my friend @hedrick, love the Orthodox, and there has been a lot of very productive dialogue between the Orthodox and the Calvinists, and I would argue the Calvinists tend to be better at preaching and organization, and we tend to be better at the liturgical arts and at catechesis in terms of teaching people about Christology and the Trinity, and so we learn from each other. But there are always hardcore sectarians in every Christian denomination who hate every denomination except their own, which they usually also hate most of. I prefer to love every denomination even though I believe that only the Orthodox Churches possess the fullness of doctrinal truth and the most beautiful liturgics.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Once again, you display a profound ignorance of Orthodox Christian theology. Just because we believe in synergy does not mean we believe we are sinless; on the contrary, all Eastern Orthodox Christians confess to being the chief of sinners in the prayers we say before receiving communion, and also during the Divine Liturgy, the priest implores us “Forgive me, brethren, for I have sinned.” And on Forgiveness Sunday the day before Lent begins on Clean Monday (rather than Ash Wednesday, which is a Western liturgical practice), we go around to everyone in our parish and assure them that we forgive them for any offense they may have caused, and obviously we also practice forgiveness the other 364 days of the year.

In fact the Orthodox Church does not guarantee salvation to the faithful in the way that some Protestant churches do, in that we do not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. I once heard a Protestant justify her telling a lie on the basis that God would forgive her. An Orthodox Christian would never do that. We recognize we are horrible sinners, but the Gospel gives us the hope that God might forgive us. Furthermore, it also gives us hope that God will help us to sin less in this life, and eventually, after a potentially infinite but unknown amount of time, we might become perfect, but that surely happens in the world to come. However, the experience of the church is that some of us our saved, and a few of these who are saved we even find out about, and these persons, glorified by God and venerated by the Church as saints as a result of martyrdom or confessing Christ and being tortured for it, or other acts of what the Roman Catholics call “heroic virtue”, while still guilty of voluntary sin at some point in their life (except for the Theotokos, who we venerate the most out of all the saints because she managed to avoid committing voluntary sin, but even then, she still required salvation through Christ our God). But since the identity of most saints is not known with certainty, we have the Feast of All Saints on the first Sunday after Pentecost (which is a Trinitarian feast in the Orthodox Church because God the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from God the Father, descended on that day and began indwelling the Holy Apostles as promised by Christ our God, so a separate Trinity Sunday as exists in the West is not required). And I hope that all Orthodox Christians and all Christians in general who believe faithfully are among the saints, but I do not know, and Scripture warns us that some will be damned, and it might well be that some Orthodox Christians who are hypocrites and fail to repent are not saved. This life was given to us for repentence.

Also, because the Orthodox Church is focused on metanoia (repentence, although the literal meaning of the Greek word metanoia is “to change your mind), which includes remorse, confessing sins, receiving absolution and working to fight the passions which tempt us to sin, which is no easy task, indeed, it is the hardest of tasks, but we believe we must try to do this, this is another reason why CCM would be so inappropriate in our churches.

Repentence, the process of fighting the passions and overcoming sin, is a solemn business, and so even Orthodox hymns which have an emotional aspect, such as some of the beautiful Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox hymns, are solemn and reverent. Solemn because of the task of repentence, and reverent because where two or three are gathered together in the name of Christ our God, there He is amongst us, and we believe we should act reverently in His presence, rather than dancing as one would at a disco, which I have seen some Christians call "worship."

I believe most of all of this myself. I just don't get bogged down with formalities as there is really no point to them.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Of course you do.

However, I also love other denominations and one of my goals in life is to inject Orthodox theology into as many of them as possible. Indeed this has already happened to a large extent with Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism, as their churches now frequently feature Orthodox icons and they have added several of our hymns, such as Phos Hilarion, to their services.

Also, Anglican Chant, which is a way of chanting the Psalms, is exquisite, and very much devoid of the excess of emotionalism that we object to musically. I listen to Choral Evensong from some of the more traditional Anglican churches several times a week, especially those that still have boys choirs, like the Temple Church and the Collegiate Church of St. Peter, better known as Westminster Abbey, and St. Paul’s, in London, and Birmingham Cathedral and York Minster, and old recordings of Gloucester Cathedral before they merged their boys and girls choir ruining the unique sound of both (30 years ago, that cathedral, which is one of the most beautiful in England, and of the Gothic cathedrals, it is my favorite, had one of the best music programs in Britain and now it has one of the worst).

For that matter, I probably would have joined one of the Eastern Catholic Churches had Pope Benedict XVI remained Pope. They use our Orthodox liturgy but are in communion with the Pope, and are in a unique position to influence the Roman Catholic Church to return to its Orthodox roots. As it is, they have already, since Vatican II, managed to get St. Gregory Palamas venerated as a saint.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I will never understand the appeal to singing the Psalms in a detached emotionless way. Does not make any sense to me.

Perhaps the problem is "excess" which is fair enough. But I'm pretty sure it's just as weird to have passionless sex with your spouse. And we all know sex is a picture of Christ and the church.

Anyway, I feel like I've overstepped my welcome here and it was not my intention to debate anything here. I just got a bit irritated with someone calling a song I have worshipped to (yes, worshipped to) many times "trash."
 
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The Liturgist

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If an Orthodox Christian wants to listen & be inspired by this Christian praise music, that’s fine. Surely it should seem to be wholesome, constructive etc. especially vs secular expressions out there. I don’t know what the big deal is but our liturgical worship is distinct from this. Our liturgy is structured on an overall framework of preaching the Gospel usually culminated in the priestly homily. The second part of the liturgy culminates with the Eucharist which is the sacramental aspect of worship.

I am totally free to still listen to a good Methodist hymn like “Christ the Lord is Risen Today” by Wesley but it is not to be included with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Indeed. I attended a Roman Catholic Traditional Latin Mass, the kind Pope Francis is trying to kill, during the day on Pascha as it happened before Agape Vespers, and they sang Christ the Lord is Risen Today after the Mass had completed and the Last Gospel (John 1:1-14, which is read at the end of most Missa Cantatas and Solemn High Masses, but not Low Masses, in the Tridentine and other Traditional Latin Rites), and this was very effective and provided lovely exit music, but it did not disturb the purity of the Gregorian Chant during the mass itself.

I do think Western Rite Orthodox churches could do the same thing, particularly those in the AWRV, which consists largely of former Anglicans. But I don’t want to hear it in a Byzantine Rite Orthodox Paschal Divine Liturgy; I prefer the Church Slavonic musical tradition of the Russian and Ukrainian churches and like to hear “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death” and the other Paschal Hymns. And I want to hear the ending of Mark during Paschal Matins and John 1:1-17 during the Paschal Divine Liturgy, and not whatever resurrection narrative has come up based on the three year Revised Common Lectionary, or worse, whatever scripture lesson has been arbitrarily selected by a pastor who does not use a lectionary, or the luck of the draw one winds up with at churches using Lectio Continua like the Calvary Chapel or the RPCNA (Covenanting Presbyterians, who use nice A Capella Exclusive Psalmody which sounds lovely, but they don’t do any kind of liturgies for Pascha or for Christmas or any of the other holy days).
 
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rusmeister

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If you think the song in the OP is "trash" I'm afraid you have no idea what the world is singing about. It's like you have never heard of Nicki Minaj or something. If singing about self-sacrificial love is "trash" I'm afraid you have left your prior fellowship for the wrong reasons.
Hi, Jesse,
Looking over the recent discussion, it seems to me that you are taking the responses too personally.
What the crowd here is trying to tell you is that, after bcoming Orthodox and worshiping in the Orthodox manner, their sense of what good worship music changed over time from what Protestants and even Catholics (and you) consider “good” worship music. That’s the answer, and if you don’t like it, maybe you shouldn’t have started this thread.

But if you want to try to understand how that could be, instead of challenging us and trying to get us to see things like you, then you are welcome to stick around in fellowship!
 
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I will never understand the appeal to singing the Psalms in a detached emotionless way. Does not make any sense to me.

Perhaps the problem is "excess" which is fair enough. But I'm pretty sure it's just as weird to have passionless sex with your spouse. And we all know sex is a picture of Christ and the church.

Anyway, I feel like I've overstepped my welcome here and it was not my intention to debate anything here. I just got a bit irritated with someone calling a song I have worshipped to (yes, worshipped to) many times "trash."

We don’t sing them in a detached emotionless way, as I said. We sing them in a solemn, reverent way which is not overly impassioned or overly emotional.

And forgive me; it was not my intention to refer to any specific work of CCM as trash, but rather the genre as a whole. You have not overstayed your welcome, either; you can debate us all you want in the St. Justin Martyr’s forum, where I see you already posted a thread on icons.

I suggest you request this thread be moved to that forum, because I believe we need to debate this more in order to fully appreciate each other’s positions. I deeply dislike CCM but I do understand your fear about music which is stoic and devoid of emotion, which I don’t believe Orthodox music is or should be, but rather that there is a balance. There are also specific reasons why I object to CCM, which I believe I owe it to you to share with you.

So please ask for the thread to be moved to St. Justin’s Corner. You can make that request of the mods using the Report button or by filing a support ticket; I usually use the Report button when I realize a thread I have started should be moved.
 
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