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What do Orthodox think of Worship Music?

The Liturgist

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Hi.

I am just wondering what the Orthodox (and variants) think of traditional contemporary worship music that is sung in many Evangelical churches today? I understand that the Orthodox generally do chants (which are beautiful!) but what do Orthodox think of contemporary worship music?

Here is one that I like (especially the lyrics):


Opposition to CCM combined with liberal theologically poorly trained clergy in the mainline churches (I knew one who was a closet homosexual and openly Arian) is literally why I became Orthodox, because the choice where I lived was between conservative Protestant churches using horrible praise and worship music and other “contemporary worship” forms which I regard as liturgical heresy, and liberal churches which had traditional music but engaged in dogmatic heresy.

In the Orthodox Churches I can breathe easily knowing that I am in a church that will never perform gay marriages and where I will never have to even see, let alone hear, an electric guitar and drum kit. Indeed even organs are rare in Orthodox Churches. Now I myself don’t have a problem with some of the Greek Orthodox music by composers like Tikey Zes that uses the organ, but that is only because I know that the traditional Byzantine Chant is zealously guarded, and also the history of organ music in the Greek churches dates back several hundred years to the Venetian Republic, and even back to the Byzantine Empire, where there was an organ in the narthex of the Hagia Sophia )albeit not one used for liturgical purposes, in that it did not accompany the choir in the nave of the church, which was truly massive and glorious and needed no accompaniment; rather my understanding is the idea of the organ in the Narthex was to prepare persons waiting to enter the nave for worship, and I can’t object to that. It is also worth noting that the Hagia Sophia and certain large cathedrals like those in Thessaloniki and Athens used a somewhat different typikon than the monastic typikon that was adopted in most parishes, one which has been restored to a large extent by the brilliant musicologist Dr. Alexander Lingas, whose Capella Romana is widely regarded as among the finest performers of Byzantine Chant (and they also recorded Tikey Zes, with the organ).

However in the majority of Orthodox churches, the organ would be a hugely unwelcome intrusion, for example, it could not do anything but spoil the music of those churches that use music originally written in Russia and Ukraine, which include also the Bulgarian and Finnish churches and the Orthodox Church of America, whose English language hymnal consists largely of English language adoptions of traditional Russian Orthodox music (which makes sense given the OCA, along with ROCOR, took over most of the Russian Orthodox Church in the US, with the OCA getting all of Alaska and also most of the converts from the Ruthenian Catholic Churches, who have their own distinct form of church music and congregational singing known as Prostopinije, which I also love, when its done well. ROCOR embraces a liturgical maximalism which results in absolutely magnificent services at many of their parishes. Additionally, the Georgian Orthodox Church uses a gorgeous tradition of three part harmony which can be astonishingly beautiful when done right (some of the monasteries sing it in a manner that is inaccessible to me, but there are other ensembles which sing it in a manner I very much enjoy).

I would also note that the introduction of the organ has been a total disaster in one of the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Syriac Orthodox Church, where the permission for organ music was seen as approval for use of an electronic keyboard synthesizer, which is a different animal altogether, and this has resulted in some absolute disasters, except in those parishes and cathedrals that made the correct decision and banned their use, and adhered to the a capella traditions of that church. On the other hand, it did not have an adverse effect among the Armenians, probably because Yekmalian and Komitas had the presence of mind to anticipate its usage.

EDIT: I changed this post because I inadvertently caused great offense to another member by referring to CCM / Praise as “trash”, which was wrong, and mean-spirited, and in this manner I sinned because I neglected to apply the Golden Rule and to follow the principle of charity. Rather, I allowed by passions to take hold, and made a crass, insensitive and stupid off-the-cuff remark, for which I apologize.
 
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All Becomes New

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Opposition to that trash

If you think the song in the OP is "trash" I'm afraid you have no idea what the world is singing about. It's like you have never heard of Nicki Minaj or something. If singing about self-sacrificial love is "trash" I'm afraid you have left your prior fellowship for the wrong reasons.
 
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All Becomes New

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Also, I think the idea that king David was somehow a stoic monastery monk who showed no emotion in his communication to God through the Psalms is absurd. Same goes for Job. If you think Job was emotionless when he repented, that's kinda weird.
 
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FenderTL5

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If you think the song in the OP is "trash" I'm afraid you have no idea what the world is singing about. It's like you have never heard of Nicki Minaj or something. If singing about self-sacrificial love is "trash" I'm afraid you have left your prior fellowship for the wrong reasons.
I went back and listened to the song in the OP again. I listened when you first posted but had forgotten it. Which kinda' describes my opinion of it.
I also compared it to another song by the same artist on Youtube.

As CCM goes, I didn't her anything spectacular. It sounded like every other generic song that's come out of the P&W music factories in the last 15-20 years. The next song on the Youtube playlist sounded just like it production and arrangement wise. It was rather flat and boring. The lyrics have very little depth. There's very little chance that song is remembered 50 years from now.

Whether it is 'trash' or not, I suppose, would depend on what you're comparing it to. It's 'wholesome enough' if you're comparing to something in the mainstream. Compared to to a 1500+ year old hymn.. it's really weak.
 
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All Becomes New

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Whether it is 'trash' or not, I suppose, would depend on what you're comparing it to. It's 'wholesome enough' if you're comparing to something in the mainstream. Compared to to a 1500+ year old hymn.. it's really weak.

It's a message our current society desperately needs. On social media and even on Christian sites like this people are constantly fighting. It very much runs counter-cultural to all this. That's why I like it. Not for some great theological depth, but because it tells us how we ought to behave, which is sorely lacking in today's culture.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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If you think the song in the OP is "trash" I'm afraid you have no idea what the world is singing about. It's like you have never heard of Nicki Minaj or something. If singing about self-sacrificial love is "trash" I'm afraid you have left your prior fellowship for the wrong reasons.
The objection I have is that it is about the Great "ME". This song is all about how "I" follow Jesus, how "I" wear His name, how "I" choose.
I follow Jesus, I follow Jesus​
He wore my sin,
I’ll gladly wear His name
He is the Treasure, He is the answer
Oh, I choose The Jesus Way.​
Yes, Jesus actually gives us an example of the "ME" prayer
The Pharisee stood and prayed God, "I thank You that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I possess."​

Compare this to one of this morning's hymns in celebration of the Holy Cross.

We venerate the wood of Your Cross, O humane One, *​
for You, the Life of all, were nailed to it. *​
O Savior, You opened Paradise to the Robber who approached You with faith. *​
He was counted worthy of delight, confessing You, Remember me, O Lord. *​
Accept us as You accepted him, *​
for we now cry, We all have sinned *​
against Your compassion. Do not abandon us.​
The Publican's prayer was just as simple, "God, Have mercy on me, a sinner".
 
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FenderTL5

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It's a message our current society desperately needs. On social media and even on Christian sites like this people are constantly fighting. It very much runs counter-cultural to all this. That's why I like it. Not for some great theological depth, but because it tells us how we ought to behave, which is sorely lacking in today's culture.
Social media would seem an appropriate place for it.
The thread is asking what Orthodox think of P&W music. You've defended what you think of it. There's nothing wrong in sharing your thoughts. However, I suppose you didn't get the answer you wanted from us.
In Orthodoxy, there's no systemic guide to what the Church believes. We have the Holy Scriptures, The Liturgy along with prayers and hymns of the Church. The best catechism is found in attending the services because you hear the theology of the Church, throughout and consistently.
The depth of teaching in the Orthodox hymns doesn't compare to a modern rewrite of the southern gospel 'I have decided to follow Jesus'.
 
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All Becomes New

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The objection I have is that it is about the Great "ME". This song is all about how "I" follow Jesus, how "I" wear His name, how "I" choose.
I follow Jesus, I follow Jesus​
He wore my sin,​
I’ll gladly wear His name​
He is the Treasure, He is the answer​
Oh, I choose The Jesus Way.​
Yes, Jesus actually gives us an example of the "ME" prayer
The Pharisee stood and prayed God, "I thank You that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I possess."​

Compare this to one of this morning's hymns in celebration of the Holy Cross.

We venerate the wood of Your Cross, O humane One, *​
for You, the Life of all, were nailed to it. *​
O Savior, You opened Paradise to the Robber who approached You with faith. *​
He was counted worthy of delight, confessing You, Remember me, O Lord. *​
Accept us as You accepted him, *​
for we now cry, We all have sinned *​
against Your compassion. Do not abandon us.​
The Publican's prayer was just as simple, "God, Have mercy on me, a sinner".

If you think Orthodox Christians have nothing to say about how WE should behave, you have missed it. In a time of revival in the church of America, It is good to have songs like this that spur on the change that makes what being a Christian is about. What revival is happening in your Christian tradition atm? Do you even believe revival is possible? You can talk about how it's all about "me" but then you miss the point of the song completely. It's about self-sacrificial love. Why any Christian would have a problem with this is baffling.
 
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ArseniusTheSilent

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I don't know that any Orthodox here have an issue with the music in and of itself. We're simply saying that it has no place in our liturgical services for all the reasons people have stated above. Hence why the thread title referring to it as "worship music" is problematic right off the bat.

It's music. It's has a Christian theme to it but it is NOT liturgical in nature.
 
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Chesterton

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It's a message our current society desperately needs. On social media and even on Christian sites like this people are constantly fighting. It very much runs counter-cultural to all this. That's why I like it. Not for some great theological depth, but because it tells us how we ought to behave, which is sorely lacking in today's culture.
This thread you started is about worship music. By your description above you seem to be admitting that this is not worship music, as people here have tried to say. There's nothing wrong with positive messages or advice for people, but it's not worship of God.
 
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This thread you started is about worship music. By your description above you seem to be admitting that this is not worship music, as people here have tried to say. There's nothing wrong with positive messages or advice for people, but it's not worship of God.

If it doesn't fit the Orthodox version of worship, that's fine. But I'm NOT saying I can't or won't use this music as worship. One of the key characteristics of worship, to me, is what we do with our voice in glorifying God.
 
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FenderTL5

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Doctrine never saved anyone.
neither has a CCM tune

On the other hand, the great commission is to "make disciples teaching them.."
Orthodoxy has a depth of teaching that is incomparable most elsewhere.
 
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neither has a CCM tune

What I think is missing here is what saves a person. I think this is a monergistic thing. God can use whatever means He wants to do that. Perhaps it is learning the beauty of a doctrine that does it or perhaps it is a CCM worship tune that does it. I don't limit the way God saves a person.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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If you think Orthodox Christians have nothing to say about how WE should behave, you have missed it. In a time of revival in the church of America, It is good to have songs like this that spur on the change that makes what being a Christian is about. What revival is happening in your Christian tradition atm? Do you even believe revival is possible? You can talk about how it's all about "me" but then you miss the point of the song completely. It's about self-sacrificial love. Why any Christian would have a problem with this is baffling.
You really do not know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy at all?

The "revival" is what we do daily. As one of the Desert Fathers said, many centuries ago, One of the fathers was asked, “What do you do all day in the monastery?” He replied, “We fall down and get up; fall down and get up; fall down and get up again.”

For example, every Lent, most services include the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim
O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.​
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.​

One of the morning prayers:
Arising from sleep I thank thee, O holy Trinity, because of the abundance of thy goodness and long-suffering thou wast not wroth with me, slothful and sinful as I am; neither hast thou destroyed me in my transgressions: but in thy compassion raised me up, as I lay in despair; that at dawn I might sing the glories of thy Majesty. Do thou now enlighten the eyes of my understanding, open my mouth to receive thy words, teach me thy commandments, help me to do thy will, confessing thee from my heart, singing and praising thine All-holy Name: of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.​
One of the evening prayers
O Lord our God, if during this day I have sinned, whether in word or deed or thought, forgive me all, for thou art good and lovest mankind. Grant me peaceful and undisturbed sleep, and deliver me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. Raise me up again in proper time that I may glorify thee; for thou art blessed: with thine Only-begotten Son and thine All-holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.​
 
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Chesterton

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If it doesn't fit the Orthodox version of worship, that's fine. But I'm NOT saying I can't or won't use this music as worship. One of the key characteristics of worship, to me, is what we do with our voice in glorifying God.
It's not just the Orthodox version of worship. You said the music in the OP "...tells us how we ought to behave". Look up "worship" in any dictionary, and I promise you won't find people telling other people how to behave included in the definition.
 
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All Becomes New

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You really do not know anything about Eastern Orthodoxy at all?

The "revival" is what we do daily. As one of the Desert Fathers said, many centuries ago, One of the fathers was asked, “What do you do all day in the monastery?” He replied, “We fall down and get up; fall down and get up; fall down and get up again.”

For example, every Lent, most services include the Lenten Prayer of St. Ephraim
O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.​
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.​

One of the morning prayers:
Arising from sleep I thank thee, O holy Trinity, because of the abundance of thy goodness and long-suffering thou wast not wroth with me, slothful and sinful as I am; neither hast thou destroyed me in my transgressions: but in thy compassion raised me up, as I lay in despair; that at dawn I might sing the glories of thy Majesty. Do thou now enlighten the eyes of my understanding, open my mouth to receive thy words, teach me thy commandments, help me to do thy will, confessing thee from my heart, singing and praising thine All-holy Name: of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.​
One of the evening prayers
O Lord our God, if during this day I have sinned, whether in word or deed or thought, forgive me all, for thou art good and lovest mankind. Grant me peaceful and undisturbed sleep, and deliver me from all influence and temptation of the evil one. Raise me up again in proper time that I may glorify thee; for thou art blessed: with thine Only-begotten Son and thine All-holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.​

Do you know the definition of revival? Tell me what you think it means because I think we have different ideas of what this means.

It's not just the Orthodox version of worship. You said the music in the OP "...tells us how we ought to behave". Look up "worship" in any dictionary, and I promise you won't find people telling other people how to behave included in the definition.

Please don't insult me by telling me what I mean by things.
 
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Chesterton

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Please don't insult me by telling me what I mean by things..
lol, okay. Sounds like your disagreement is actually more with the folks at Merriam-Webster. Good luck. :)
 
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All Becomes New

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lol, okay. Sounds like your disagreement is actually more with the folks at Merriam-Webster. Good luck. :)

Did I say the song was limited to that? No, I did not. In fact, I pointed out that what we do with our voice is an important way to worship. That fulfills the criteria of worship here (from Webster):
 

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