What de-conversion feels like

[CCWoody]

The only problem I have with it is that it typifies faulty logic. Followed to its natural conclusion, one cannot know if anyone is a Christian until after they are dead. Because it is possible that any man (or women) could come to the realization that God does not exist. Then, if that does happen, then decades previously spent worshipping and serving God all of a sudden never happened.

No, it does not follow. Not at least for me. I regard anyone who professes a Trinitarian faith in Christ and a few other things to actually be Christian. You see, actually being a Christian doesn't mean that you are saved. It only means that you belong to the visible community of Christ, the Church. It is entirely possible and actually does happen that someone professes faith in Christ their whole lives, even dying in "faith," only to realize that they never belonged to the Lord after they are gone. They had spent their entire lives under a self-deception that they really belonged to the Lord.

As such is my belief and I can defend it quite well from my Bible, I regard that there are some current Atheists which were former Christians. This doesn't mean that they were born of God; simply a member of the visible covenant community. I do find it sad that there are Christians who cannot handle this fact of life and deal with it by removing that person which they can't handle. You see, a great many Christians don't have a faith; they are their faith. When someone deconverts, it is a direct blow against themselves. It doesn't make their reactions right; it merely means that they really are insecure humans at heart.

Even you, my friend Woody, could come to that conclusion. Would that then mean that you were never a Christian?

See above. I will freely regard you who have deconverted as former Christians, if we define it as someone who belongs to the visible Church. I do not, however, regard these persons as saints, Elect, born of God, born again, sons of God, etc.

And, I do not withdraw fellowship with these persons for deconverting anymore than the Lord Jesus withdrew fellowship from Pharisees and sinners. And, I don't judge these people for simply acting naturally nor do I try to force them to act like Christians. Any of you who want a beer or coffee in my area and someone to sympathize with the way you were treated for deconverting, I'll be happy to have a few. I don't even try to convert people for salvation is of the Lord. Though, it is funny that people tend to gravitate toward Christ around me. Funny how that happens.

 

[LibertyChic]

No, it does not follow. Not at least for me. I regard anyone who professes a Trinitarian faith in Christ and a few other things to actually be Christian. You see, actually being a Christian doesn't mean that you are saved. It only means that you belong to the visible community of Christ, the Church. It is entirely possible and actually does happen that someone professes faith in Christ their whole lives, even dying in "faith," only to realize that they never belonged to the Lord after they are gone. They had spent their entire lives under a self-deception that they really belonged to the Lord.

As such is my belief and I can defend it quite well from my Bible, I regard that there are some current Atheists which were former Christians. This doesn't mean that they were born of God; simply a member of the visible covenant community. I do find it sad that there are Christians who cannot handle this fact of life and deal with it by removing that person which they can't handle. You see, a great many Christians don't have a faith; they are their faith. When someone deconverts, it is a direct blow against themselves. It doesn't make their reactions right; it merely means that they really are insecure humans at heart.



See above. I will freely regard you who have deconverted as former Christians, if we define it as someone who belongs to the visible Church. I do not, however, regard these persons as saints, Elect, born of God, born again, sons of God, etc.

And, I do not withdraw fellowship with these persons for deconverting anymore than the Lord Jesus withdrew fellowship from Pharisees and sinners. And, I don't judge these people for simply acting naturally nor do I try to force them to act like Christians. Any of you who want a beer or coffee in my area and someone to sympathize with the way you were treated for deconverting, I'll be happy to have a few. I don't even try to convert people for salvation is of the Lord. Though, it is funny that people tend to gravitate toward Christ around me. Funny how that happens.

You really, truly cannot grasp that some of us really, really, really were Born-Again, can you? This blows my mind.

 

[Cat59]

I regard anyone who professes a Trinitarian faith in Christ and a few other things to actually be Christian. You see, actually being a Christian doesn't mean that you are saved. It only means that you belong to the visible community of Christ, the Church. It is entirely possible and actually does happen that someone professes faith in Christ their whole lives, even dying in "faith," only to realize that they never belonged to the Lord after they are gone. They had spent their entire lives under a self-deception that they really belonged to the Lord.

So to follow on from this, how do you know if you belong to the Lord? One defining criteria for you seems to be that you will not "fall away" but how else does one know?

 

[Freodin]

No, it does not follow. Not at least for me. I regard anyone who professes a Trinitarian faith in Christ and a few other things to actually be Christian. You see, actually being a Christian doesn't mean that you are saved. It only means that you belong to the visible community of Christ, the Church. It is entirely possible and actually does happen that someone professes faith in Christ their whole lives, even dying in "faith," only to realize that they never belonged to the Lord after they are gone. They had spent their entire lives under a self-deception that they really belonged to the Lord.

As such is my belief and I can defend it quite well from my Bible, I regard that there are some current Atheists which were former Christians. This doesn't mean that they were born of God; simply a member of the visible covenant community. I do find it sad that there are Christians who cannot handle this fact of life and deal with it by removing that person which they can't handle. You see, a great many Christians don't have a faith; they are their faith. When someone deconverts, it is a direct blow against themselves. It doesn't make their reactions right; it merely means that they really are insecure humans at heart.



See above. I will freely regard you who have deconverted as former Christians, if we define it as someone who belongs to the visible Church. I do not, however, regard these persons as saints, Elect, born of God, born again, sons of God, etc.

And, I do not withdraw fellowship with these persons for deconverting anymore than the Lord Jesus withdrew fellowship from Pharisees and sinners. And, I don't judge these people for simply acting naturally nor do I try to force them to act like Christians. Any of you who want a beer or coffee in my area and someone to sympathize with the way you were treated for deconverting, I'll be happy to have a few. I don't even try to convert people for salvation is of the Lord. Though, it is funny that people tend to gravitate toward Christ around me. Funny how that happens.

All that is just a bunch of semantics. Whatever you might call these people, they are still divided in two groups: the "unsaved" Christians and the "Saints".
Other people just use a different classification "not-true-Christians" and "True Christians". The differences between these two groups are exactly the same.
The first groups acts, thinks and feels like Christians, but are not "real" in whatever sense. The second groups is.

Now the problem that Grizzly mentioned was the impossibility of establishing whether someone belongs in groups 1 or 2.
If it is possible for someone to live their whole life in the sincere faith that one is a really, really, true, born-again, saved, whatever Christian - and after one´s death finds out that one wasn´t.... then it can happen to everyone, even the ones you call Saints.... even yourself.

So if there is no real make to find out where you belong, why make the distiction in the first place?

 

[Sojourner1]

You really, truly cannot grasp that some of us really, really, really were Born-Again, can you? This blows my mind.

I find it interesting that you use the term "Born Again". This to me implies that you accept the concept of being born again, that those who are saved have actually died to their own natures and have been born again in Christ and have received His nature. If you believe that you were really born again, then did you willingly give up the new nature that God gave you and return to your pre-born again nature? Were you "un-born"? If you were truly born again then you were crucified with Christ, you were purchased by His blood, and you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[LibertyChic]

I find it interesting that you use the term "Born Again". This to me implies that you accept the concept of being born again, that those who are saved have actually died to their own natures and have been born again in Christ and have received His nature. If you believe that you were really born again, then did you willingly give up the new nature that God gave you and return to your pre-born again nature? Were you "un-born"? If you were truly born again then you were crucified with Christ, you were purchased by His blood, and you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I will explain this in a language that I hope you understand (I say this as a sort of explanation for those that may read this and think, "What the heck is she talking about??")

I did not return to my pre-born nature and I was not "un-born." The same Spirit that was with me at my indwelling continues to guide me and speak to me. I was born-again, no doubt. I preached, cast out demons, layed on hands for the healing of others (and saw results), spoke in tongues (still do on occasion) and interpreted tongues. Yes...I'm not lying to you when I say I did all these things.

I know it seems incomprehensible that I would seemingly throw all that away (salvation, relationship with Jesus as Savior, etc) but what most don't understand is that I did not throw it away.

Do I think Christianity is an invalid path? Certainly not. Do I think I'm in danger of hellfire? No. My God has brought me to a deeper understanding than what I had before. Does that mean I'm better than others? Of course not. Am I better than I was before? Well, I'm happier. I have a new outlook on life and spirituality. The path God is taking me down, I am convinced, is the correct one for me.

Does that help explain it, even if only a little?

 

[The Seeker]

Deconversion kinda tickles, actually.

 

[CCWoody]

You really, truly cannot grasp that some of us really, really, really were Born-Again, can you? This blows my mind.

Christian, meaning a part of the visible community of God, the Church, yes.



Born of God, no. Goodness, but the Bible doesn't even tell you how to do this. It simply says that you must be born of God. The wind of God blows where it will and no man knows from where it comes.

1Jo 3:9 GB
(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.
1Jo 5:4 GB
(4) For all that is borne of God, ouercommeth this world: and this is that victorie that hath ouercome this world, euen our faith.
​

Look, the Biblical verses which demonstrate that those who are born of God, born again, can never finally fall away from the faith are aplenty. Fall, yes, but fall away, no. Those who have been born again are actually perfected forever, even if their final sanctification is not yet complete.

But, really, why is this such a big deal to those who are on the outside of the kingdom of God? What does it really even matter that Christians believe that you were born from above by God when you don't even believe that there is this Christian God to cause your new birth? It really is kind of amusing when you think about it.

nonbeliever: "I was born again."
Christian: "You mean born from above by a God which you don't believe exists."
nonbeliever: "Yes."
Christian:

 

[CCWoody]

So to follow on from this, how do you know if you belong to the Lord? One defining criteria for you seems to be that you will not "fall away" but how else does one know?

I've met the Lord.

But, to be honest, it really doesn't matter whether or not I actually belong to the Lord as one of the sheep, the chosen ones. He is my Creator. I owe to him my allegiance, devotion, worship, love, regardless of my status.

 

[Sojourner1]

I did not return to my pre-born nature and I was not "un-born." The same Spirit that was with me at my indwelling continues to guide me and speak to me. I was born-again, no doubt. I preached, cast out demons, layed on hands for the healing of others (and saw results), spoke in tongues (still do on occasion) and interpreted tongues. Yes...I'm not lying to you when I say I did all these things.

I don't want to be offensive but you do realize that there are spirits that can imitate the Holy Spirit, enabling people to speak in tongues, heal others, etc. The spirit that you speak of as indwelling you may have been a false spirit, and not the Holy Spirit Himself. We are instructed to test the spirits, and if a spirit doesn't confess Christ, then that spirit is not of God (1 John 4:1-3).

I know it seems incomprehensible that I would seemingly throw all that away (salvation, relationship with Jesus as Savior, etc) but what most don't understand is that I did not throw it away.

So you still have a relationship with Jesus? Who do you say that Jesus is? Do you still consider yourself saved? I guess I'm not quite sure what it is you believe and on what your new faith is based on.

Does that help explain it, even if only a little?

What I understand so far is that you have chosen another spiritual path other than Christianity. What spiritual beliefs you now have I am unsure of.

 

[CCWoody]

So if there is no real make to find out where you belong, why make the distiction in the first place?

Regardless of whether or not I actually agree with any of the rest of your statment, I don't make a distinction between "fake" Christians and those who really belong to the Lord. I regard any who makes a Trinitarian confession of faith to the Lord and behave accordingly as a brother or sister in Christ. Those who fall away from the faith, I regard as former Christian and current non-believers. I still don't regard them as Reprobates.

It ain't my job to separate the sheep from the goats.

But, when we speak of matters of doctrine, the Bible is clear that those who are born again, born from above by God can never fall away into perdition.

 

[CCWoody]

I did not return to my pre-born nature and I was not "un-born." The same Spirit that was with me at my indwelling continues to guide me and speak to me. I was born-again, no doubt. I preached, cast out demons, layed on hands for the healing of others (and saw results), spoke in tongues (still do on occasion) and interpreted tongues. Yes...I'm not lying to you when I say I did all these things.

What do you make of this:

Mat 7:21-23 GB
(21) Not euery one that sayeth vnto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdome of heauen, but he that doeth my Fathers will which is in heauen.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, haue we not by thy Name prophecied? and by thy name cast out deuils? and by thy name done many great workes?
(23) And then will I professe to them, I neuer knewe you: depart from me, ye that worke iniquitie.

 

[NPH]

But, when we speak of matters of doctrine, the Bible is clear that those who are born again, born from above by God can never fall away into perdition.

Not all that clear since it is only a minority of Christians that believe this. The greater majority do not hold to any form of OSAS (calvinist or other). They would tell you that the Bible clearly says otherwise.

 

[CCWoody]

Not all that clear since it is only a minority of Christians that believe this. The greater majority do not hold to any form of OSAS (calvinist or other). They would tell you that the Bible clearly says otherwise.

Oh, well. Thankfully, the Lord has left himself a faithful witness of his predestinarion truths and not let everyone fall into anthroprocentric beliefs. It used to be that the entire Protestant world was united with us. Still, we are not dismayed that the vast majority have chosen to turn by the wayside.

 

[Rize]

So if there is no real make to find out where you belong, why make the distiction in the first place?

That's the thing, there is a way to tell. While someone is a Christian, you can't tell. But if they fall away, you can tell that they never actually were (just playing devil's advocate of course; I think it's silly and pointless as well... and rather offensive).

Christian's tend to believe what the Bible tells them... and the Bible says that someone born again cannot fall away. So how can you expect a Christian who reads that verse and takes it to heart not to believe it?

What I want to know is why a Calvinist bothers to argue with people in the first place. I thought Calvinists didn't believe in Free Will... of course, that answers my own question. The Calvnist (by his own doctrine) could only argue with us because God thinks its a fun way to play with his human toys.

Or are you a free will calvinist?

[edit]

btw, does anyone know how to change the phrase under my name (currently says "universalist"). it's not true anymore.

 

[NPH]

Oh, well. Thankfully, the Lord has left himself a faithful witness of his predestinarion truths and not let everyone fall into anthroprocentric beliefs. It used to be that the entire Protestant world was united with us.

So, what was He doing during the 1500-some years before there even was a Protestant world? Or Calvinism and OSAS for that matter?

Still, we are not dismayed that the vast majority have chosen to turn by the wayside.

Or would it be more accurate to say that the vast majority did not reject the teachings that had been held for 1500 years to join Calvin and his view?

Sorry, just busting your chops a bit here I'm not particularly concerned one way or the other. While I would personally find predestination to be a load of hooey I would never begrudge someone to feel that it was correct and speak as such. By your beliefs if someone "deconverts" then they were never truly saved in the first place, and so it is understandable that you would speak of them in such a way. I have no problem with that, but the "deconvert" might

btw, does anyone know how to change the phrase under my name (currently says "universalist"). it's not true anymore.

Up in the various options at the top of the screen click on "Custom" (bottom line, 3rd from left). Then you would go to "Change Custom Title".

 

[CCWoody]

What I want to know is why a Calvinist bothers to argue with people in the first place. I thought Calvinists didn't believe in Free Will... of course, that answers my own question. The Calvnist (by his own doctrine) could only argue with us because God thinks its a fun way to play with his human toys.

Or are you a free will calvinist?

[edit]

btw, does anyone know how to change the phrase under my name (currently says "universalist"). it's not true anymore.

Why, for the same reason that Paul contended for the faith. You know, the funny thing here is that, while most people chide us, we have led the world in missions. It's a Reformed thing.

As far as free will, you will have to define it before I can say whether or not I agree with it.

 

[CCWoody]

So, what was He doing during the 1500-some years before there even was a Protestant world? Or Calvinism and OSAS for that matter?

You should study history. There have always been Predestinarians in the church.

 

[Rize]

Why, for the same reason that Paul contended for the faith. You know, the funny thing here is that, while most people chide us, we have led the world in missions. It's a Reformed thing.

As far as free will, you will have to define it before I can say whether or not I agree with it.

Free will as opposed to predestination. I suppose you'll say that the ultimate state of everyone's soul is predestined but the intervening details are determined by your free will? That would be a belief that's hard to reconcile with logic. Of course, all Christian beliefs are hard to reconcile with logic for that matter.

Oh, and VNVnation, thanks for the tip! I figured it would be up in the control panel somewhere...

 

[NPH]

You should study history. There have always been Predestinarians in the church.

I know, that's why I said I was just busting your chops a bit. But it has never even been close to a widely-held belief, and I believe at most points would have been considered heretical ... I am not even slightly certain about that point though.

Not really trying to debate you on the point, which is why I specifically said I see nothing wrong with someone believing in predestination if they want (I am so not out to change anyone's mind on anything religious anymore). I only wanted to make it clear that it is a small minority held belief, currently and historically.