What de-conversion feels like

[CCWoody]

Free will as opposed to predestination.

I view that like trying to reconcile 2 lovers.

I suppose you'll say that the ultimate state of everyone's soul is predestined but the intervening details are determined by your free will?

No, I wouldn't. Even "free will" choices are under Divine Providence.

That would be a belief that's hard to reconcile with logic. Of course, all Christian beliefs are hard to reconcile with logic for that matter.

It might be hard to reconcile. I wouldn't want to try. This doesn't mean that I can't reconcile my own Predestinarian beliefs with free will logically. I do think I actually have a formal argument on file.

 

[LibertyChic]

Christian, meaning a part of the visible community of God, the Church, yes.





Born of God, no. Goodness, but the Bible doesn't even tell you how to do this. It simply says that you must be born of God. The wind of God blows where it will and no man knows from where it comes.

1Jo 3:9 GB

(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.
1Jo 5:4 GB
(4) For all that is borne of God, ouercommeth this world: and this is that victorie that hath ouercome this world, euen our faith.

​

Look, the Biblical verses which demonstrate that those who are born of God, born again, can never finally fall away from the faith are aplenty. Fall, yes, but fall away, no. Those who have been born again are actually perfected forever, even if their final sanctification is not yet complete.


But, really, why is this such a big deal to those who are on the outside of the kingdom of God? What does it really even matter that Christians believe that you were born from above by God when you don't even believe that there is this Christian God to cause your new birth? It really is kind of amusing when you think about it.

nonbeliever: "I was born again."
Christian: "You mean born from above by a God which you don't believe exists."
nonbeliever: "Yes."
Christian:

Perhaps we are speaking two different "languages," so allow me to ask for a bit of clarification here.

Would you consider yourself an "Evangelical, born-again, Spirit-filled" believer? The kind that speaks in tongues and believes that signs and wonders are for today's church?

 

[CCWoody]

I know, that's why I said I was just busting your chops a bit. But it has never even been close to a widely-held belief, and I believe at most points would have been considered heretical ... I am not even slightly certain about that point though.

Not really trying to debate you on the point, which is why I specifically said I see nothing wrong with someone believing in predestination if they want (I am so not out to change anyone's mind on anything religious anymore). I only wanted to make it clear that it is a small minority held belief, currently and historically.

At one point in time, the entire Protestant world was under a Calvinist banner. During that age of glory, we sent missionaries all over the world and even built a little country called the United States based on a Presbyterian form of government and the already tried model in Geneva. This is why some in history have called Calvin the father of America. And, we did it at the same time the rest of the Christian world was trying to hunt us down and kill us.

As that venerable Calvinist J.S. Bach (if I remember correctly) used to end his letters...

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[CCWoody]

Perhaps we are speaking two different "languages," so allow me to ask for a bit of clarification here.

Would you consider yourself an "Evangelical, born-again, Spirit-filled" believer? The kind that speaks in tongues and believes that signs and wonders are for today's church?

Though "evangelical" would be an appropriate term historically cause at one point in time the only kind of evangelical was a Predestinarian, to use those terms to describe me would lead to confusion because of what those Christians today stand for and believe. This is why I prefer the label Calvinist.

Am I Evangelical? Yes, in the correct sense of history. In the sense of goofey nitwits seen on TV. No.
Am I born-again and Spirit filled? Yes. And, I even believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In the sense of that guy who claims to be a born again, Spirit filled believer that speaks in tongues and signs and wonders. No. I don't jump pews or speak holy click clack talk and I don't go "Ooooh" when someone babbles on so. When that happens, my bic twich becomes more pronounced.

 

[LibertyChic]

I don't want to be offensive but you do realize that there are spirits that can imitate the Holy Spirit, enabling people to speak in tongues, heal others, etc. The spirit that you speak of as indwelling you may have been a false spirit, and not the Holy Spirit Himself. We are instructed to test the spirits, and if a spirit doesn't confess Christ, then that spirit is not of God (1 John 4:1-3).

Yes, I am aware of that, and figured you would probably bring that up. I have no way to ultimately prove to you that the Spirit I have experienced was and is genuine.

So you still have a relationship with Jesus? Who do you say that Jesus is? Do you still consider yourself saved? I guess I'm not quite sure what it is you believe and on what your new faith is based on.

This is a very long and complicated answer. I believe I still have a relationship with God and/or God's Spirit. Some people experience this as Jesus, some experience it as the Holy Spirit, some as the God of Abraham and some in another manner.

Through study and a "bricks hitting the brain" revelation, I came to the conclusion that Jesus is not the only way to heaven. Yes, I know the bible says differently. I won't get into the details of that study because it would take pages and pages of explanation to do so. Once this revelation hit me, I realized I could no longer, in good conscience, call myself a "Christian," though I might still qualify as such in some circles.

What I understand so far is that you have chosen another spiritual path other than Christianity. What spiritual beliefs you now have I am unsure of.

Because I no longer believe Jesus to be the only way to heaven, nor to be the "only begotton Son" of a triune Godhead, I am no longer an adherent to the Trinity philosophy. I seriously looked into Messianicism, Judaism as well as Noachide beliefs. What I believe today...well, that would take us off subject for this thread.

BTW, I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful and respectfully asked questions. Thank you.

 

[LibertyChic]

Though "evangelical" would be an appropriate term historically cause at one point in time the only kind of evangelical was a Predestinarian, to use those terms to describe me would lead to confusion because of what those Christians today stand for and believe. This is why I prefer the label Calvinist.

Am I Evangelical? Yes, in the correct sense of history. In the sense of goofey nitwits seen on TV. No.
Am I born-again and Spirit filled? Yes. And, I even believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In the sense of that guy who claims to be a born again, Spirit filled believer that speaks in tongues and signs and wonders. No. I don't jump pews or speak holy click clack talk and I don't go "Ooooh" when someone babbles on so. When that happens, my bic twich becomes more pronounced.

OK...then by your definition, you are correct. I was never saved to begin with.

By my definition (and those with whom I attended church and grew in the Lord) I was very much a Christian.

 

[LibertyChic]

What do you make of this:

Mat 7:21-23 GB
(21) Not euery one that sayeth vnto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdome of heauen, but he that doeth my Fathers will which is in heauen.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, haue we not by thy Name prophecied? and by thy name cast out deuils? and by thy name done many great workes?
(23) And then will I professe to them, I neuer knewe you: depart from me, ye that worke iniquitie.

Please see this thread for that answer.

 

[nb_christseeker]

Why do you care if they are "born again"? Why can't somebody just be a really excellent Christian their whole life?

1) what is your definition of an excellent christian? a pharisee?

Joh 3:3 Iesous answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Iesous answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That's why its important.

 

[CCWoody]

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That's why its important.

Fascinating that the Lord tells us that we must be born again, but doesn't tell us how to do that. The wind blows where it will.

 

[NPH]

No. I don't jump pews or speak holy click clack talk and I don't go "Ooooh" when someone babbles on so. When that happens, my bic twich becomes more pronounced.

I am so going to have to borrow that description there Woody That's the most amusing way i've ever heard it described.

 

[LibertyChic]

Fascinating that the Lord tells us that we must be born again, but doesn't tell us how to do that. The wind blows where it will.

You don't believe that "born again" and "saved" are synonymous?

 

[CCWoody]

I am so going to have to borrow that description there Woody That's the most amusing way i've ever heard it described.

Might as well have the full story....

I was in a church several years ago and we were having a pastor's conference of which I was in attendance when someone stands up and starts clacking like something from the movie Mimic. Then, someone else gets up and does this wierd, forced sounding "interpretation," followed by the pastor announcing an excellent message in tongues. I'm thinking: "sounds like holy click-clack bug to me."

"Click clack, chick chok" You get the idea.

 

[CCWoody]

You don't believe that "born again" and "saved" are synonymous?

That depends on what you mean when you say saved. You see, the Scriptures speak of salvation in several senses and tenses. Of which and what do you mean when you say "salvation?"

But, even if we make them synonymous, you can still have Christians who are not saved in any sense. These people are still destined to be examples of God's holy justice.

 

[LibertyChic]

That depends on what you mean when you say saved. You see, the Scriptures speak of salvation in several senses and tenses. Of which and what do you mean when you say "salvation?"

But, even if we make them synonymous, you can still have Christians who are not saved in any sense. These people are still destined to be examples of God's holy justice.

What is your perspective on these two verses?

Acts 2:21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[CCWoody]

What is your perspective on these two verses?

Acts 2:21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

While it is true that those who call on the Lord, something much more profound than most people realize, will be saved (notice the future tense), this does not mean that anyone who claims the name of Christ has called on the name of the Lord in the sense spoken of in these verses.

However, in the sense of the discussion about deconverting, let's examine the premise of deconversion in the sense of these verses. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that we believe that someone who has deconverted truly called on the name of the Lord in the sense spoken of in Acts 2 & Romans 10. What, then, does that say about the final state of such people. Well, it means that they will enjoy final salvation at the coming of the Lord, theologically called "glorification." Notice that the verses don't mean that these people might be saved. Does anyone honestly think that the Lord is coming to save unbelievers?

2Th 1:6-10 GB
(6) For it is a righteous thing with God, to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you,
(7) And to you which are troubled, rest with vs, when the Lord Iesus shall shewe himselfe from heauen with his mightie Angels,
(8) In flaming fire, rendring vengeance vnto them, that doe not know God, and which obey not vnto the Gospel of our Lord Iesus Christ,
(9) Which shall be punished with euerlasting perdition, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power,
(10) When he shall come to be glorified in his Saints, and to be made marueilous in all them that beleeue ( because our testimonie toward you was beleeued) in that day.

 

[lilithrising]

No, it's based on long experience counseling "deconverts" who are starting to question why they really left the church. Very few have such insight, and it usually has nothing to do with lack of evidence. (As I have shown in this forum ten times already).


Rad

Counciling de-converts infers to me that you are a councilor?
I can't argue your experience with those who chose to council with you. I assume they came to you because of their doubts. My position is for those of us who studied themselves right out of religion. For those, including myself, will never return to religion because we have the evidences that disprove the bible. For those who de-convert for other reasons that appears to be your frame of reference. I still stand on my position in the list of false assumptions you made regarding de-converts.

lilithrising

 

[Lokmer]

"Salvation comes only through Jesus Christ's atoning work..." Christian Universalism

"Salvation comes only through faith in Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice..." Lutheran protestantism

"Salvation comes through works of compassion and charity..." Jesus Christ, Matthew 25:31ff

"Salvation comes through faith in Christ, submission to God's will, and works of compassion and charity..." Book of James, New Testament

"Salvation comes through the indwelling of the holy spirit and is witnessed by attendant miracles..." Pentacostalism, based on the book of Acts and the last chapter of the long ending of the Gospel of Mark.

"Salvation is the transformation of consciousness when we stand in awe of the ineffable in the universe..." Philosophical panentheism (Leonard Cohen, Joseph Campbell, Deitrich Bonhoeffer), with tenuous biblical basis in Romans 1
-----
All of these positions have shown up in this thread. All of them have some biblical basis.

Can there be any more convincing proof that God has left the building than what we see in this thread? If there is a God, let him show himself. If s/he shows itself to some people as Jesus, to others as Buddha, to others as Krishna, to others as YHWH, to others as the depth of the Cosmos, are we such lofty arrogant creatures as to dictate to it what its proper form is?

Arguing over dogma and doctrine seems important. But, eventually, it becomes a form of spiritual masturbation - a way to enjoy oneself while avoiding coping with the profundity and experiential reality of the spiritual experiences of others that differ with us. As an atheist (former Evangelical), I don't believe that any of this is an external spirit, but I recognize the profound effect of the internal reality.

Life is discovery. All of us, struggling through paucity and plenty, triumph and tradgedy, heartbreak and joy, must eventually come to grips with the injustice of mortality, the comedy of absurdity of being evidently the only sentient beings in a universe that dwarfs us as we dwarf electrions. Our ability to understand the limits of our own existence is the ultimate mystery, and buried beneath all the dogma and argument is coping with that ability is the problem that all of us struggle with or seek to avoid struggling with "It is a mystery. When the universe places a mystery in front of you, common courtesy dictates that you try to figure it out." -J. Michael Straczynski

-Lokmer

 

[CCWoody]

Can there be any more convincing proof that God has left the building than what we see in this thread? If there is a God, let him show himself. If s/he shows itself to some people as Jesus, to others as Buddha, to others as Krishna, to others as YHWH, to others as the depth of the Cosmos, are we such lofty arrogant creatures as to dictate to it what its proper form is?

That is funny that you think it somehow "proof." The existence of competing ideas about something is proof that something is wrong. BWAHAHAHAHA!

Arguing over dogma and doctrine seems important. But, eventually, it becomes a form of spiritual masturbation - a way to enjoy oneself while avoiding coping with the profundity and experiential reality of the spiritual experiences of others that differ with us. As an atheist (former Evangelical), I don't believe that any of this is an external spirit, but I recognize the profound effect of the internal reality.

I like your choice of terminology. You are completely wrong, of course, but I do like your choice of terminology. It does paint an interesting picture.

 

[sc4s2cg]

Lokmer,
Could you please provide the verse for
"Salvation comes through works of compassion and charity" ~ Christ?

Mat 25:31 "When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne.

G-d bless,
sc

 

[StainedClassKing]

Deconversion is like eating a plate of spaghetti that uses ingredients in it's sauce that you have never eaten before.