What de-conversion feels like

[Eudaimonist]

Why would anybody fake it? What's the point of that?

To fit into the group. I can see many reasons why people would do this, such as to keep the peace with relatives.

 

[radorth]

Is this the same Spirit that supposed to help all Christians interpret the bible in the same way (God's way) and to keep the Body of Christ (the church) unified?

Yes, wasn't Promisekeepers a beautiful sight with Catholics and Protestants of all denominations worshiping together like that?

Marvelous.

Rad

 

[truthmonger89]

No but in my church, when people want to do ministry, we discern who is a Christian by their testimony of rebirth and you can tell when they are faking it. To the spiritual ear the non-born-again testimony has a dead ring to it. It's not infallible but it works better than anything else. Anybody can talk and make claims, but the Spirit knows.

Rad

OK, I think we just have a misunderstanding. One can be entirely sincere in their beliefs and do good works not be born again.

It is doubtless some of these who will come to Jesus saying "Didn't we do many good works in your name?" And he will say "I never knew you."

Rad

So do some Christians fake being born again or not? In post #220 you said people can be entirely sincere in their beliefs which would mean they are not faking it, but in post #210 you said you can spot a fake. Do some people fake being born again Christians or not? Yes or no?

In other words, when you spot a fake, what exactly are they faking, and why do you think they would fake it?

 

[Grizzly]

Yes, wasn't Promisekeepers a beautiful sight with Catholics and Protestants of all denominations worshiping together like that?

Marvelous.

Rad

LOL. Sure, I think that all Christian men could unite around the theme of spiritual mastery of women.

But the mere fact that there are denominations (and many of them) among Christians, along with a HUGE range of beliefs about what the bible actually says, tells me that the the Holy Spirit isn't talking to any of you. Or if He is, you all are not listening.

 

[LibertyChic]

[pipe up]

I find it hard not to be highly offended when someone suggests that my born-again Christian experience was neither real nor sincere.

[/pipe up]

 

[TheBear]

All these "deconverts" can tell you what nice committed Christians they were at one time, but few if any were ever born again.

And you are God. Right?

 

[TheBear]

So do some Christians fake being born again or not? In post #220 you said people can be entirely sincere in their beliefs which would mean they are not faking it, but in post #210 you said you can spot a fake. Do some people fake being born again Christians or not? Yes or no?

In other words, when you spot a fake, what exactly are they faking, and why do you think they would fake it?

Very good questions to which I would also like to hear the answers.

 

[MrMalone]

So do some Christians fake being born again or not? In post #220 you said people can be entirely sincere in their beliefs which would mean they are not faking it, but in post #210 you said you can spot a fake. Do some people fake being born again Christians or not? Yes or no?

In other words, when you spot a fake, what exactly are they faking, and why do you think they would fake it?

Very good questions to which I would also like to hear the answers.

It's sincerity of heart and belief that is likely lacking when someone would fake being a real Christian. They might think that going through the actions, for instance, is good enough and counts enough for being "saved". Perhaps in their heart, they don't really care for God or want to keep what they feel His commands are, but they don't want to go to Hell either so they might try to do what they think they need to, to get by.

Others simply might be trying to convince themselves that they love God and the things they feel Christianity offers, because they don't "feel it" like they seem to see other people doing. They feel like they aren't tapping into the peace and joy and stuff that people keep talking about and feeling good inside or secure about their salvation.

Others might be trying to put on a face to impress others like family members or people in their community so they have a good image or something.

Some might think that they can trick God.

Some might do it just for fun.

I stopped claiming myself to be a Christian because I didn't want people to assume what I believe is representative of mainstream Christianity. I feel that what I believe is typically more "Biblical" than mainstream Christianity, but convincing Christians of that is no easy task. I typically get judged very quickly and it's rather annoying, but I can hardly blame them because I did the same thing when I was in their line of thinking more.

I had to be honest with myself and come to a point and just make a decision. Pretending was something I considered, but I'm not that kind of person. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.

 

[TheBear]

It's sincerity of heart and belief that is likely lacking when someone would fake being a real Christian. They might think that going through the actions, for instance, is good enough and counts enough for being "saved". Perhaps in their heart, they don't really care for God or want to keep what they feel His commands are, but they don't want to go to Hell either so they might try to do what they think they need to, to get by.

Others simply might be trying to convince themselves that they love God and the things they feel Christianity offers, because they don't "feel it" like they seem to see other people doing. They feel like they aren't tapping into the peace and joy and stuff that people keep talking about and feeling good inside or secure about their salvation.

Others might be trying to put on a face to impress others like family members or people in their community so they have a good image or something.

Some might think that they can trick God.

Some might do it just for fun.

I stopped claiming myself to be a Christian because I didn't want people to assume what I believe is representative of mainstream Christianity. I feel that what I believe is typically more "Biblical" than mainstream Christianity, but convincing Christians of that is no easy task. I typically get judged very quickly and it's rather annoying, but I can hardly blame them because I did the same thing when I was in their line of thinking more.

I had to be honest with myself and come to a point and just make a decision. Pretending was something I considered, but I'm not that kind of person. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.

The questions basically asked - How do you know someone's heart?

 

[LibertyChic]

It's sincerity of heart and belief that is likely lacking when someone would fake being a real Christian. They might think that going through the actions, for instance, is good enough and counts enough for being "saved". Perhaps in their heart, they don't really care for God or want to keep what they feel His commands are, but they don't want to go to Hell either so they might try to do what they think they need to, to get by.

Others simply might be trying to convince themselves that they love God and the things they feel Christianity offers, because they don't "feel it" like they seem to see other people doing. They feel like they aren't tapping into the peace and joy and stuff that people keep talking about and feeling good inside or secure about their salvation.

Others might be trying to put on a face to impress others like family members or people in their community so they have a good image or something.

Some might think that they can trick God.

Some might do it just for fun.

I stopped claiming myself to be a Christian because I didn't want people to assume what I believe is representative of mainstream Christianity. I feel that what I believe is typically more "Biblical" than mainstream Christianity, but convincing Christians of that is no easy task. I typically get judged very quickly and it's rather annoying, but I can hardly blame them because I did the same thing when I was in their line of thinking more.

I had to be honest with myself and come to a point and just make a decision. Pretending was something I considered, but I'm not that kind of person. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.

Do you hold the opinion that all deconverts were never "True Christians" to begin with?

 

[lilithrising]

All these "deconverts" can tell you what nice committed Christians they were at one time, but few if any were ever born again. If indeed God gives one a new nature, it is quite impossible to get rid of it and so they must inevitably return to Christ and that which they truly are by nature.

Rad

This is an incredibly arrogant statement! It is based on false assumptions. It is the most widely used judgement by christians against those who have rejected their once firmly-held religious faith.

>>>>>>>>but few if any were ever born again<<<<<<<<<<,
It is a false assumption to claim that de-converts were never true believers. Only someone who does not personally know a de-convert can make a judgement like this.
Many de-converts were once zealous christians holding firmly to their faith. When something happens to change that it does not mean they were 'never born again'.

>>>>>>>>it is quite impossible to get rid of it <<<<<<<<<
It is also a false assumption that spirituality cannot evolve and change throughout one's lifetime.

>>>>>so they must inevitably return to Christ and that which they truly are by nature.<<<<<<<<<
It is also a false assumption that "if they were truely born again" they will return to the faith.

lilithrising

 

[lilithrising]

Well put Roark and I can echo your experience. I don't want to sound disrespectful to the believers here, but the day I left Christianity was for me the day I grew up and took responsibility for my own life. I no longer had to deal with this irrational and judgmental supposedly supernatural entity and continually wonder what his will was or wasn't.

And yes, it was (and continues to be) very liberating! In fact I have more of a sense of wonder and curiosity about the world then I ever did as a Christian. Perhaps it's because I realize that there probably isn't an afterlife that I am determined to make the most of my time here.

The only part of being a Christian that I missed was some of the community aspects; but on the other hand the very people I had once considered to be my 'family' were sadly very quick to withdraw and disown me when it was very apparent that I was no longer in the faith. I certainly found out who my real friends were!

I can echo your experience as well. It's the short of my long story too.
Yeah, these kind of friendships have strings attached and once you become an "outsider" it's over.

lilithrising

 

[truthmonger89]

It's sincerity of heart and belief that is likely lacking when someone would fake being a real Christian. They might think that going through the actions, for instance, is good enough and counts enough for being "saved". Perhaps in their heart, they don't really care for God or want to keep what they feel His commands are, but they don't want to go to Hell either so they might try to do what they think they need to, to get by.

Others simply might be trying to convince themselves that they love God and the things they feel Christianity offers, because they don't "feel it" like they seem to see other people doing. They feel like they aren't tapping into the peace and joy and stuff that people keep talking about and feeling good inside or secure about their salvation.

Others might be trying to put on a face to impress others like family members or people in their community so they have a good image or something.

Some might think that they can trick God.

Some might do it just for fun.

I stopped claiming myself to be a Christian because I didn't want people to assume what I believe is representative of mainstream Christianity. I feel that what I believe is typically more "Biblical" than mainstream Christianity, but convincing Christians of that is no easy task. I typically get judged very quickly and it's rather annoying, but I can hardly blame them because I did the same thing when I was in their line of thinking more.

I had to be honest with myself and come to a point and just make a decision. Pretending was something I considered, but I'm not that kind of person. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror.

I get the impression that you think Christians who are faking it still actually believe what they are trying to fake, which would mean that deep down inside they really do believe, and therefore aren't really faking it. If that is an accurate understanding of your position, then I think you are ignoring the obvious.

If someone is faking a belief in Christianity that means they don't really believe it is true. That's what it means to fake something: to pretend. Anyone who fakes belief in Christianity obviously does not have a deep-seated conviction that Christianity is true, quite the opposite. Deep down underneath it all they think Christianity is a bunch of superstitious nonsense, which is why they fake it in the first place.

There are lots of reasons to pretend to believe in Christianity: social pressures such as avoiding conflict with family members, retaining church-related friends, and avoiding the psychological stress of confronting your own deepest doubts about one of the most important aspects of your life. So, many people just continue to pretend to believe what they don't really believe. I think there are many Christians out there who are just pretending but are too afraid to admit it. I think Radorth would probably agree, considering his self-proclaimed ability to spot fakes.

If some Christians are faking it, one has to wonder why they bother. Pretending to believe in Christianity makes about as much sense as pretending to believe in Hindu reincarnation or any other superstitious nonsense, it seems like a total waste of time and a pointless act of self-deception.

 

[MrMalone]

Do you hold the opinion that all deconverts were never "True Christians" to begin with?

Not at all. I am one of them. It makes no sense to suggest that someone could freely chose to love/chose/follow God and then sometime later not be able to freely chose to not love/chose/follow God.

It's like saying you lose your free will after you decide to become a Christian. I do think that there are people out there that probably understand what being a Christian means and the idea sounds good and it's something that they would like, but when it comes down to it, they aren't totally willing to surrender their lives to the "cause of God" and in a sense don't really allow the Christian culture to change their lifestyle or decisions that closer reflect what is assumed to be Biblical.

Thats a long sentence, but I don't want to change it.

I don't believe that is the case for every "de-convert". If nothing else, I can only know that it is true for myself. As well, simply based on the logic of the possition that one fully retains free will. Sure God never leaves US or forsakes US, but that doesn't mean we can't freely chose to leave Him. I feel it's rather simple actually.

So, many people just continue to pretend to believe what they don't really believe. I think there are many Christians out there who are just pretending but are too afraid to admit it.

I think we pretty much agree but people wouldn't fake it for the sake of it if they were absolutely possitive the belief system was wrong. Some people would likely have a strong possition that they think Christianity/Hinduism is all hogwash, but there are other benefits to going through the actions.. such as having friends at all, or belonging to a community that accepts them.

I think these so called fakers don't know if it's right or not, but they put themselves into the organization and go with the flow.. although they don't fully believe what's going on. That is probably meant by faking it. Not as litteral as just doing it for fun although I'm sure there are some of those too for whatever reason. Maybe curiosity... . research.. who knows.

How would I know if someone was faking it?

I don't know. There are signs people give without knowing it. I don't care really anymore because I go to church.. but I usually arrive 10 min before the sermon ends and just go to visit with my friends and go for lunch afterwards. My friends are clear that I am not faking anything. They know I don't learn anything from the sermons let alone really care. I keep them acountable though by tactlessly reminding them of what they "should or shouldn't be doing, saying or believing" as Christians according to the Christian sub-culture they are a part of an only semi-aware of.

 

[LibertyChic]

Not at all. I am one of them.

A deconvert or a True Christian (tm)?

It makes no sense to suggest that someone could freely chose to love/chose/follow God and then sometime later not be able to freely chose to not love/chose/follow God.

It's like saying you lose your free will after you decide to become a Christian.

Thank you.

I do think that there are people out there that probably understand what being a Christian means and the idea sounds good and it's something that they would like, but when it comes down to it, they aren't totally willing to surrender their lives to the "cause of God" and in a sense don't really allow the Christian culture to change their lifestyle or decisions that closer reflect what is assumed to be Biblical.

Do you think this is the norm among deconverts? Or the exception?

Thats a long sentence, but I don't want to change it.

You're forgiven.

I don't believe that is the case for every "de-convert". If nothing else, I can only know that it is true for myself. As well, simply based on the logic of the possition that one fully retains free will. Sure God never leaves US or forsakes US, but that doesn't mean we can't freely chose to leave Him. I feel it's rather simple actually.

Please clarify what you mean when you say, "That it is true for myself." I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

But you're right...it is rather simple, isn't it?

FWIW, I've never proclaimed that I've left God. I've never stated that God left me.

Just for the record.

I think we pretty much agree but people wouldn't fake it for the sake of it if they were absolutely possitive the belief system was wrong. Some people would likely have a strong possition that they think Christianity/Hinduism is all hogwash, but there are other benefits to going through the actions.. such as having friends at all, or belonging to a community that accepts them.

I think these so called fakers don't know if it's right or not, but they put themselves into the organization and go with the flow.. although they don't fully believe what's going on. That is probably meant by faking it. Not as litteral as just doing it for fun although I'm sure there are some of those too for whatever reason. Maybe curiosity... . research.. who knows.

How would I know if someone was faking it?

I don't know. There are signs people give without knowing it. I don't care really anymore because I go to church.. but I usually arrive 10 min before the sermon ends and just go to visit with my friends and go for lunch afterwards. My friends are clear that I am not faking anything. They know I don't learn anything from the sermons let alone really care. I keep them acountable though by tactlessly reminding them of what they "should or shouldn't be doing, saying or believing" as Christians according to the Christian sub-culture they are a part of an only semi-aware of.

That is an absolutely facinating last paragraph (+one sentence). Mind expounding on it a bit more?

 

[radorth]

So do some Christians fake being born again or not? In post #220 you said people can be entirely sincere in their beliefs which would mean they are not faking it, but in post #210 you said you can spot a fake. Do some people fake being born again Christians or not? Yes or no?

In other words, when you spot a fake, what exactly are they faking, and why do you think they would fake it?

I see why you would misunderstand if I use the word "faking." To me you can be sincere and a "fake" Christians. However, I should have said "thinking they are born again when they are not." OK?

Rad

 

[radorth]

This is an incredibly arrogant statement!

No, it's based on long experience counseling "deconverts" who are starting to question why they really left the church. Very few have such insight, and it usually has nothing to do with lack of evidence. (As I have shown in this forum ten times already).

And you might want to read the forum rules before using such inflammatory words again.

Rad

 

[LibertyChic]

No, it's based on long experience counseling "deconverts" who are starting to question why they really left the church. Very few have such insight, and it usually has nothing to do with lack of evidence. (As I have shown in this forum ten times already).

Really. With whom?

And you might want to read the forum rules before using such inflammatory words again.

Rad

She didn't call you arrogant...she said your statement was arrogant.

 

[Harlan Norris]

For those who have never experienced de-conversion, it can be difficult to describe what it 'feels' like. I think many Christians assume the de-convert's feeling are like those of a lost person. This is not what I experienced. I think "liberation" is closer to describing the feeling (at least myself) had upon leaving the church.


(Robert G. Ingersoll)
When I became convinced that the universe is natural, that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space. I was free--free to think, to express my thoughts--free to live my own ideal, free to live for myself and those I loved, free to use all my faculties, all my senses, free to spread imagination's wings, free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope, free to judge and determine for myself . . . I was free! I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

​

All these things you are free to do will lead you right back to where you started.

 

[Natro]

All these things you are free to do will lead you right back to where you started.

dead?