What de-conversion feels like

[truthmonger89]

No but in my church, when people want to do ministry, we discern who is a Christian by their testimony of rebirth and you can tell when they are faking it. To the spiritual ear the non-born-again testimony has a dead ring to it. It's not infallible but it works better than anything else. Anybody can talk and make claims, but the Spirit knows.

Rad

I see why you would misunderstand if I use the word "faking." To me you can be sincere and a "fake" Christians. However, I should have said "thinking they are born again when they are not." OK?

Rad

A sincere fake seems like a contradiction in terms. How would you know even better than the individual him/herself that they are not a born again Christian even though they claim to be? If someone says they are born again and sincerely feels that they are, who are you to say they are lying? How can it be a lie if they are sincere?

How do you spot a fake? What gives it away? What exactly are they faking? Why do you think they would they do such a thing?

 

[Lycaenidae]

I see why you would misunderstand if I use the word "faking." To me you can be sincere and a "fake" Christians. However, I should have said "thinking they are born again when they are not." OK?

Rad

Why do you care if they are "born again"? Why can't somebody just be a really excellent Christian their whole life?

 

[radorth]

Why do you care if they are "born again"? Why can't somebody just be a really excellent Christian their whole life?

It's not possible without a new nature, for one thing. We are all generically so corrupt that "excellent" works are just cleaner looking filthy rags. History and our testimony proves that. For a person to really change, they have to be vetted of self-righteousness and pride, which "excellent" people are most vulnerable to. Besides, who is a "really excellent Christian" you know of who has never had a spiritual rebirth and will not say they know Jesus personally?

Rad

 

[LibertyChic]

It's not possible without a new nature, for one thing. We are all generically so corrupt that "excellent" works are just cleaner looking filthy rags. Besides, who is a "really excellent Christian" you know of who has never had a spiritual rebirth and will not say they know Jesus personally?

Rad

GACK! Too many double negatives!!

*brain explodes

 

[radorth]

A sincere fake seems like a contradiction in terms. How would you know even better than the individual him/herself that they are not a born again Christian even though they claim to be? If someone says they are born again and sincerely feels that they are, who are you to say they are lying? How can it be a lie if they are sincere?

How do you spot a fake? What gives it away?

A certain religious dullness and shallowness. The spiritual knows the spiritual.

What exactly are they faking? Why do you think they would they do such a thing?

I just told you that "faking" was not the right word. Why do you keep using it other than to be merely argumentative, or are you lost for an argument now?

Rad

 

[radorth]

GACK! Too many double negatives!!

*brain explodes

Hmmm.

Rad

 

[Lanakila]

I don't think you would have been able to tell before most of us deconverted Rad, even if we had been members of your church, involved in the ministry of your church. I believed the same as you before about this before I deconverted btw.

I know your doctrine doesn't leave room for deconverts though, and will excuse your insulting statements because of that.

 

[CCWoody]

1+1+1=3
1*1*1=1

 

[radorth]

I don't think you would have been able to tell before most of us deconverted Rad, even if we had been members of your church, involved in the ministry of your church. I believed the same as you before about this before I deconverted btw.

I know your doctrine doesn't leave room for deconverts though, and will excuse your insulting statements because of that.

I merely opined that one cannot revert to an old nature if they have a new one as the Bible says. Funny how much positive mail I get for insights which atheists find insultng. I'm sorry to see you have to make generalized slights of people in lieu of facts or opinions.

Is it possible you were not truly born again as Jesus meant it? Prove you were born again as he meant it, and I will retract my opinion.

Rad

 

[radorth]

Anyone is welcome to answer my question in post 243.

 

[talitha]

Hmm. Lanakila, I have read over and over these posts of Radorth's, and I have yet to find where he insulted anyone.

blessings in Christ
tal

 

[Eudaimonist]

Hmm. Lanakila, I have read over and over these posts of Radorth's, and I have yet to find where he insulted anyone.

Assertions of mindreading (e.g. asserting that someone was never born-again, when this was precisely their experience) are generally insulting.

Why is this such a difficult concept for some people? Do deconverts have a special sense of their own to understand these things?

 

[Rize]

I recently completed a deconversion that took a good 2 years. Although I guess that's just the latest chapter in my spiritual history. I felt a little lost at first (very briefly) then back to normal and now after a few years convicted.

I have conviction that I was right to abandon Christianity (for the third time to be technical) and I'm determined never to return (which should be quite easy now having significant experience as a Catholic, atheist, non-denominational charismatic Christian, agnostic, annihilationist and universalist; I've left no stone unturned and so have nothing left to test). I'm fairly certain I've made up my mind for good now. Agnosticism it is.

But not just a "roll over and die" agnosticism; a strong agnosticism willing to confront the problem of faith with confidence (which is that faith, by definition, requires people to believe something without evidence, and that supernatural phenomenon can never be tested or proved by natural beings).

So.. yeah, I know what deconversion feels like. I've done it three times. If anyone cares, perhaps I'll go into more detail. To the author of this thread, welcome back to ... I wanted to say welcome back to sanity but perhaps that would be a bit offensive to the religious folk here. And I certainly mean no offense. But I am an aggressive debater.

By the way, as you can see I have a number of posts at this forum (all made years ago). This will be my first post after a long vacation and my first post as a non christian.

 

[Lanakila]

I merely opined that one cannot revert to an old nature if they have a new one as the Bible says. Funny how much positive mail I get for insights which atheists find insultng. I'm sorry to see you have to make generalized slights of people in lieu of facts or opinions.

Is it possible you were not truly born again as Jesus meant it? Prove you were born again as he meant it, and I will retract my opinion.

Rad

All I can prove is that I believed I was born again. But then again, you can't prove you are born again either. Prove you are born again with a new nature Rad. Frankly I rarely see evidence of the fruits in many of your posts, and can't believe you.

Do you see how insulting that is? That is the way you post to me all the time, btw. It's sideways insults, not direct flames, and therefore not reportable.

 

[Lanakila]

I recently completed a deconversion that took a good 2 years. Although I guess that's just the latest chapter in my spiritual history. I felt a little lost at first (very briefly) then back to normal and now after a few years convicted.

I have conviction that I was right to abandon Christianity (for the third time to be technical) and I'm determined never to return (which should be quite easy now having significant experience as a Catholic, atheist, non-denominational charismatic Christian, agnostic, annihilationist and universalist; I've left no stone unturned and so have nothing left to test). I'm fairly certain I've made up my mind for good now. Agnosticism it is.

But not just a "roll over and die" agnosticism; a strong agnosticism willing to confront the problem of faith with confidence (which is that faith, by definition, requires people to believe something without evidence, and that supernatural phenomenon can never be tested or proved by natural beings).

So.. yeah, I know what deconversion feels like. I've done it three times. If anyone cares, perhaps I'll go into more detail. To the author of this thread, welcome back to ... I wanted to say welcome back to sanity but perhaps that would be a bit offensive to the religious folk here. And I certainly mean no offense. But I am an aggressive debater.

By the way, as you can see I have a number of posts at this forum (all made years ago). This will be my first post after a long vacation and my first post as a non christian.

Welcome back Rize. I remember you.

 

[Lanakila]

I have detailed my deconversion experience here before, but it has been a long time. I was one of those, that seemed to everyone around me, very fast deconversions. But that is because no one knew what was going on inside my brain. I kept my doubts to myself because I know that Christians judge each other for doubting. Because I used to judge those Christians that always struggled with insecurity about their salvation, harshly. (not to their faces mind you, I kept my opinions to myself and tried to help them along)

At the end of my faith, I begged God to disprove the evidence I was reading, because I really wanted to believe. I didn't want to be an atheist and I didn't want to lose Jesus because he was not only my savior, but he was my best friend. I knew my life was going to change drastically and I was afraid. But, God didn't answer that prayer, because imo he doesn't exist to answer. The scripture that says: you will find me if you seek with all your heart was proven false to me. In fact that scripture is just an out for God, because one can say: you didn't seek with your whole heart if the person doesn't find God.

I didn't feel lost but I did feel a loss. I lost my church, many of my friends, and gave up position. My marriage didn't survive either, so deconverting has been very expensive for me.

 

[CCWoody]

Assertions of mindreading (e.g. asserting that someone was never born-again, when this was precisely their experience) are generally insulting.

Why is this such a difficult concept for some people? Do deconverts have a special sense of their own to understand these things?

Ah, but the Bible is clear. Those who are born again cannot fall into sin and death. To ask a Christian to act otherwise to someone who has "deconverted" is insulting to the Christian faith. So, given the choice of being true to God on this point or hurting the feelings of the "deconverted" I'll stick with God every time. If this is really a problem then the "deconverted" is invited to take it up with whatever higher authority exists in his life.

 

[Grizzly]

Ah, but the Bible is clear. Those who are born again cannot fall into sin and death. To ask a Christian to act otherwise to someone who has "deconverted" is insulting to the Christian faith. So, given the choice of being true to God on this point or hurting the feelings of the "deconverted" I'll stick with God every time. If this is really a problem then the "deconverted" is invited to take it up with whatever higher authority exists in his life.

The only problem I have with it is that it typifies faulty logic. Followed to its natural conclusion, one cannot know if anyone is a Christian until after they are dead. Because it is possible that any man (or women) could come to the realization that God does not exist. Then, if that does happen, then decades previously spent worshipping and serving God all of a sudden never happened.

Even you, my friend Woody, could come to that conclusion. Would that then mean that you were never a Christian?

 

[Lanakila]

Hmm. Lanakila, I have read over and over these posts of Radorth's, and I have yet to find where he insulted anyone.

blessings in Christ
tal

Radorth doesn't openly flame in this thread. But telling me I was never a Christian because someone born again can't deconvert is offensive because its calling me a liar, and I just don't like it. I don't think anyone likes being called a liar. I had the born again experience, lived like a born again Christian for 18 years, won converts, raised my kids as Christians, I lived for God because I trully believed and thought the Holy Spirit was leading me.

That I now don't believe doesn't change the past, and telling me over and over again that it does is freakin offensive.

 

[LibertyChic]

Radorth doesn't openly flame in this thread. But telling me I was never a Christian because someone born again can't deconvert is offensive because its calling me a liar, and I just don't like it. I don't think anyone likes being called a liar. I had the born again experience, lived like a born again Christian for 18 years, won converts, raised my kids as Christians, I lived for God because I trully believed and thought the Holy Spirit was leading me.

That I now don't believe doesn't change the past, and telling me over and over again that it does is freakin offensive.

No, it sure doesn't and yes, it sure is.