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I agree with your reply to my post but I wanted to add to your reply to the other poster. There are interesting thought experiments with the idea that intelligent aliens of future humans conducting simulations for which we may be a part of. This stems from the ability of tech going forward in bering able to improve computers and virtual reality to the point where it becomes so integrated that we may have trouble telling whats real to what is simulated.I don't think this thread started that way. Does it have to be God, what about a highly intelligent aliens in another dimension which I don't think biology or traditional physics can explain?
I am open to all science including physics in QM I don't hold any particular worldview when it comes to science or woo science, what is woo today may not be in the future our knowledge and test equipment are limited. What Einstein called "spooky action at a distance” today isn't so spooky after all. Not only can we not explain consciousness, mantra chants, prayer, intuition, or when someone gives you bad vibes is not a natural process but we all know the basic building block of matter is the atom so why not study the properties and their actions through QM?
Yet this idea also comes from the very pioneers of QM. So it seems some mainstream scientists are supporting such ideas which doesn't seem so far fetched as made out.It was your claim of electrons having the property of consciousness that we labeled woo. We stand by that label.
It is still nonsense and utterly unphysical.Yet this idea also comes from the very pioneers of QM. So it seems some mainstream scientists are supporting such ideas which doesn't seem so far fetched as made out.
Ideas such as IIT, panpsychism, Mind, Information and Knowledge as fundemental, which seem to be rising in popularity within mainstream sciences are examples. So that would mean all these proposals are Woo. And yet you have not given any arguement as to how they are Woo.
This is the crux of the matter. If we go back to the beginning or percieved beginning whatever that may be under the scientific materialist paradigm we get to a point where something had to come from nothing physical. The idea of a quantum void of potential phyical stuff is still something. The laws that require such states are still something.Even as a Lover of God I could not go down the path that your describing. It's not about anything supernatural or mind/body or anything like that. But as I see it, consciousness is a basic element of existence starting with the moment of the Big Bang. I understand that's where I willingly go down the woo track. And...that trajectory is not science and does not belong here.
Yet this idea also comes from the very pioneers of QM. So it seems some mainstream scientists are supporting such ideas which doesn't seem so far fetched as made out.
Ideas such as IIT, panpsychism, Mind, Information and Knowledge as fundemental, which seem to be rising in popularity within mainstream sciences are examples of hoiw consciousness and Mind are fundemental thius even the electron and are said to be the most promising ideas to explain what we are finding in QM. So that would mean all these proposals are Woo. And yet you have not given any arguement as to how they are Woo.
All this is hard to believe but I won't disregard what these physicists are doing because it's related to math. As time goes on humans will get smarter.I agree with your reply to my post but I wanted to add to your reply to the other poster. There are interesting thought experiments with the idea that intelligent aliens of future humans conducting simulations for which we may be a part of. This stems from the ability of tech going forward in bering able to improve computers and virtual reality to the point where it becomes so integrated that we may have trouble telling whats real to what is simulated.
In that case an arguement can be made that we may be living in a similation and what we think is reality is actually programmed. This also relates to how several lines of thinking relate to QM and information theory and how fundementally reality is based on Information or math. Like the Universe is math or the Holographic principle. So it may not be so far fetched as people think.
At least supporting the idea of Information and Mind being fundemental because most of these ideas are able abstract concepts such as Information which can only make sense with Mind being fundemental in creating such realities.
I think basically Panpsychism is different to Pantheism. Pantheism equates the universe with God. So it denies a single entity of God. Where perhaps consciousness comes from and can be experienced by humans and nature itself in some basic form.Panpsychism isn't necessarily readily compatible with traditional Christian sentiments. Latin Christianity in particular (including Protestantism) has traditionally had an aversion to its implications. As David Bentley Hart points out, "pantheism" has been used as a perjorative historically in an uncritical manner.
You qualified why you think its nonsense when you say its "utterly unphysical". So really what you are saying is that its nonsense according to Methodological naturalism.It is still nonsense and utterly unphysical.
Electrons possessing consciousness is nonsense. Their properties are well known.You qualified why you think its nonsense when you say its "utterly unphysical". So really what you are saying is that its nonsense according to Methodological naturalism.
QED. (That's Quantum Electrodynamics) That's what we need here, not some "philosophy".But when we consider that methodological naturalism is reaally a metaphysical ontological belief and that it cannot make claims about ontology or epistemology for that matter and therefore cannot rule out possibilities beyond its narrow capabilities as far as knowing reality on all levels especially qualitive stuff. Then its really only a belief.
You cannot claim this or that is woo just because it doesn't conform to the narrow measure of reality within the closure of the physical. You can claim that according to methodological naturalism there is no supernaturalism or spiritual realm or whatever.
But that is only an epistemic beleif claim about how we should know reality and not an ontological one. If you want to push it into ontology then thats more about belief than science.
Renowned researchers David Chalmers and Anil Seth join Brian Greene to explore how far science and philosophy have gone toward explaining the greatest of all mysteries, consciousness--and whether artificially intelligent systems may one day possess it.
This program is part of the Big Ideas series, supported by the John Templeton Foundation.
I don't walk into a sports bar, listen to some of the conversations, then declare that sport is, overall, a waste of time and money, and the abode of dull people who lack the smarts to do something useful. Now there are three reasons for that: first, I don't believe it is true, second I might get beat up, but the most important reason is that it is discourteous and self-centred. It is a pity you don't share that latter outlook.
Nope, not at all.
Consciousness in the way I experience it is a component of existence. It's all One.
Such transcendence of corporeal processes is evidence of a spiritual dimension to our consciousness.I think we need to ask about out of body experience's. Do they exist? Are they real? Is the evidence convincing? If so, is it an ability of the brain (matter) to project it's consciousness or is it consciousness independent of the brain?
Great video, Ive watched and read stuff by Chalmers before. I think the Mary thought experiment is insightful. I believe there is an aspect of reality beyond the material reductionist view that relays knowledge to us about what is going on. We sense this through intuition or some extra sense and its not a delusion but real.
We havnt woirked it out but we know we know its real and that the material explanations are not enough. I also like when they referred the the Hard problem of Matter or Mass rather than Consciousness. I think this is the case. That its Matter than we don't really understand and that Consciousness is actually the real experience of reality. We just create conceptions as limited humans as to what we experience.
I also like how Greene was explaining how we havn't really solved the Hard problem of life and the Moral question. As Chalmers says these are bound up in consciousness. We are moral beings because we are conscious of ourselves and others and we sense others pain. These aspects cannot be seperated from consciousness.
When you think about it just like the hard problem of consciousness is how can synapses and neurons produce subjective experiences like the color red or how can a machine, its wires and transitors be conscious when they just metal and electrical circuits is the same kind of Hard problem as to why electrons or Bosons could produce a life force. How inanimate matter can produce life.
But if even within the electron there was this spark of consciousness and that fundementally there is just consciousness suddenly life and consciousness coming from matter doesn't seem so unreal and may explain a lot of the problems classical science has come up against.
You can't test it with the science method. So it fails before we even walk into the lab. The only way you can test consciousness is directly, by asking the subject.
That is why I think it is wrong to dismiss our conscious experiences as just something in the imagination or as a secondary byproduct that some physical mechanism created that doesn't itself represent knowledge about reality.
We have to rethink how we can know reality, with different kinds of questions when it comes to consciousness. Look at our experiences as real phenomena that can give us insight into a deeper level of reality. A more transcedent reality that has real effects in this world.
As a Christian who believes in the bible as the inspired word of God who created consciousness, I look to the word of God, rather than to men, for an explanation of consciousness.
We are told in Gen 2:7, And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (his body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (his spirit); and man became a living being (his consciousness).
It is the body of man united with the spirit of man that gives rise to human consciousness/life.
1 Cor 2:11, For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
It is the spirit in man that inspires man with the power of knowledge.
Job 32:8, There is a spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.
There is a spirit in man that inspires man with the power of understanding.
In other words, there is a spirit in man that inspires man with the power of knowledge and understanding, hence consciousness.
Jam 2:26, The body without the spirit is dead.
The body of man without the spirit in man is dead/unconscious, because it is the spirit in man united with the body of man that gives rise to human consciousness/life.
Gen 2:7, And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (his body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (his spirit); and man became a living being (his consciousness).
Artificially intelligent systems may one day possess consciousness only if they can be programmed to possess a spirit. Without a spirit, any semblance of consciousness would simply be artificial consciousness and not real consciousness.
I agree with your reply to my post but I wanted to add to your reply to the other poster. There are interesting thought experiments with the idea that intelligent aliens of future humans conducting simulations for which we may be a part of. This stems from the ability of tech going forward in bering able to improve computers and virtual reality to the point where it becomes so integrated that we may have trouble telling whats real to what is simulated.
In that case an arguement can be made that we may be living in a similation and what we think is reality is actually programmed. This also relates to how several lines of thinking relate to QM and information theory and how fundementally reality is based on Information or math. Like the Universe is math or the Holographic principle. So it may not be so far fetched as people think.
At least supporting the idea of Information and Mind being fundemental because most of these ideas are able abstract concepts such as Information which can only make sense with Mind being fundemental in creating such realities.
Yes and fundementally their properties are wave like. Thats not exactly supporting a physical ontology.Electrons possessing consciousness is nonsense. Their properties are well known.
Apart from the mathmatical description about how light and matter interact what exactly does this mean in the context of the fundemental nature of reality. This only describes the behaviour.QED. (That's Quantum Electrodynamics) That's what we need here, not some "philosophy".
Yes exactly. In the beginning was the 'Word'.Which brings us back to the organizational principle of the universe.
"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God." John 1:1