What commandments is Jesus talking about?

[mkgal1]

What does the word "fulfill" mean to you? Did Jesus accomplish this task? I think He is represented as saying He did here-

LK 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

"Fulfill the law" - to the ancient Hebrews - from what I understand, means to interpret the Law correctly so that it can be lived correctly. The "law" isn't about legalism (it's the exact opposite of legalism, if interpreted correctly).

And, yes, Jesus fulfilled ALL that was spoken of through the Law and the prophets. I'd hope that all Christians believe that.

Yes I remember what John wrote in JN 1:1. I also read the whole Bible and find -

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Don't stop there.....read this as well:

Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.​

Since you quoted John -

JN 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Also please note John says the law was given through Moses and contrasts that to what Jesus did.

Correct - but you still can't separate the two. If you toss out the OT, you miss a lot of mystery that's revealed there (if I'm understanding you correctly).

Then deal with -

LK 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deal with" Luke 16?

There was specific timing prophesied there. Jesus' birth had been foretold all throughout the Law (the Pentateuch - the Torah ). Matthew 1 describes the timing:

Matthew 1:17 ~ All those listed above include fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the Babylonian exile, and fourteen from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah.​

From the Bible Project:

Son of Abraham

By calling Jesus the "son of Abraham,” the author is connecting Jesus to the father of the people of Israel. Abraham represents the moment when God selected and separated his family from the rest of the nations all the way back in the book of Genesis. It was through these Israelite people that God promised to bring blessing to all of humanity (Gen 12:1-3)

By linking Jesus to Abraham, Matthew is bringing reader’s attention back to the promise of God’s rescue plan for the world. He wants us to see that Jesus is the long-awaited son of Abraham who will bring God’s blessing to all humanity. But how, exactly? Well, look now at the second key figure in the genealogy: David.

A King from the line of David

Jesus’ identity as a descendant of David is a major focus of Matthew’s gospel. To understand Matthew’s theology and his portrait of Jesus, we will want to examine how Matthew is bringing David into the story.

“Son of David,” is a term that the author of Matthew is very fond of. Verse one is the first of ten appearances of the phrase in the book, and it draws our attention to the royal line of King David. Abraham’s name pointed to a belonging amongst the people of Israel. David’s name tells us that Jesus was royalty.


Matthew’s packed even more into this genealogy. Look at the unique appearance of four women in the genealogy of Matthew: Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba. All four are either non-Israelites or connected to non-Israelite families. Not only is it unconventional for Matthew to list these female names in an all-male genealogy, but these particular women are all associated with potential sex scandals. Matthew could have highlighted Jesus’ connection to Sarah, Rebecca, and Rachel, the matriarchs of Israel. But instead, he mentions Canaanites, prostitutes, and Moabite women, who would be associated with Israel’s sin and covenant failure.

Matthew wants his readers to see that God has been using all types of people to move his plan forward. This portrait of an inclusive and expanding God and kingdom will continue to appear beyond Matthew’s genealogy into the rest of his gospel. He will continue to include the rejects and outsiders into his family And this non-Israelite strand in Jesus’ family history will expand even wider in his final commission to his followers to go and “make disciples of all the nations” (Matt 28:19)
Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


And so, we read the genealogy of Matthew and see the royal lineage of Jesus. He’s the one who will bring the blessing of Abraham to the whole world. He’s the royal son of David that all of Israel has been waiting for. He’s the one that the prophets wrote about, and the psalmists sang about. He will be the king of Israel who blesses all of the nations of the world, especially the outsiders. We know all of this because Matthew tells us in a genealogy that carefully reveals the hope that has arrived in Jesus. ~ Matthew & Chronicles, the conneciton. | The Bible Project

​

Neither of these are found in the OT. So Jesus is teaching something besides the law.

Again - you're equating "the law" with legalism, rule following - and it's not. "The Law" is simply the Torah - the Scripture that the ancient Jews memorized and formed their lives around. The purpose of the Law was to point towards Jesus - the Messiah - God incarnate. The theme is His love for us (and His desire for us to abide in His love) all through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

However - you CAN find find OT verses that were instruction to love God (is that what you're arguing? Do you NOT see any instruction to love God in the OT?):

Here are just a few (there are loads more):

Deuteronomy 6:5:
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Deut 11:1
"You shall therefore love the LORD your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

Joshua 22:5
"Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul."

Psalm 31:23
O love the LORD, all you His godly ones! The LORD preserves the faithful And fully recompenses the proud doer.​

I think you miss both what I said and God's purpose in creating mankind. Thank you for the invitation. If you want to discuss what is going on in the Bible study or the blogger, post it here and we can talk about it.

I'm glad that I don't need your approval for what I believe about God's purpose in creating humanity.

That study is 7 months of daily reading of the Old Testament - so it's not something I can encapsulate here.

 

[BABerean2]

You can find it on Wikipedia

Hopefully, you understand that Wikipedia is not a primary source of information and that almost anyone can provide information to Wikipedia.

Is Hillel found in the Bible, or the writings of Josephus, or does his information only come from later rabbinic sources which were written after 70 AD?

.

 

[ace of hearts]

"Fulfill the law" - to the ancient Hebrews - from what I understand, means to interpret the Law correctly so that it can be lived correctly. The "law" isn't about legalism (it's the exact opposite of legalism, if interpreted correctly).

I asked you about the word "fulfill" only. I didn't ask about what ancient Hebrews said about the law. So if you would kindly talk about the word "fulfill," I'd greatly appreciate it.

And, yes, Jesus fulfilled ALL that was spoken of through the Law and the prophets. I'd hope that all Christians believe that.

What exactly does this mean?

Don't stop there.....read this as well:

Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.​

No problem. Also read -

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law (our former schoolmaster) is out of work and unemployed for the Christian.

Is the law still valid today? Yes for the wicked only.

1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

If I were to believe what you intend, you call Christians lawless, ungodly disobedient sinners. Sorry but that doesn't describe Christians. It does describe religious people some of which think of themselves as Christians.

Correct - but you still can't separate the two. If you toss out the OT, you miss a lot of mystery that's revealed there (if I'm understanding you correctly).

There's nothing in the OT one needs to know to be a Christian. Everything the Christian needs to know is found in the NT. In fact there's more in the NT than a person needs to know to be a Christian.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deal with" Luke 16?

Talk to me about Luke 16 and specifically verse 16.

There was specific timing prophesied there. Jesus' birth had been foretold all throughout the Law (the Pentateuch - the Torah ). Matthew 1 describes the timing:

Matthew 1:17 ~ All those listed above include fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the Babylonian exile, and fourteen from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah.​

From the Bible Project:

Son of Abraham

By calling Jesus the "son of Abraham,” the author is connecting Jesus to the father of the people of Israel. Abraham represents the moment when God selected and separated his family from the rest of the nations all the way back in the book of Genesis. It was through these Israelite people that God promised to bring blessing to all of humanity (Gen 12:1-3)

By linking Jesus to Abraham, Matthew is bringing reader’s attention back to the promise of God’s rescue plan for the world. He wants us to see that Jesus is the long-awaited son of Abraham who will bring God’s blessing to all humanity. But how, exactly? Well, look now at the second key figure in the genealogy: David.

A King from the line of David

Jesus’ identity as a descendant of David is a major focus of Matthew’s gospel. To understand Matthew’s theology and his portrait of Jesus, we will want to examine how Matthew is bringing David into the story.

“Son of David,” is a term that the author of Matthew is very fond of. Verse one is the first of ten appearances of the phrase in the book, and it draws our attention to the royal line of King David. Abraham’s name pointed to a belonging amongst the people of Israel. David’s name tells us that Jesus was royalty.


Matthew’s packed even more into this genealogy. Look at the unique appearance of four women in the genealogy of Matthew: Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba. All four are either non-Israelites or connected to non-Israelite families. Not only is it unconventional for Matthew to list these female names in an all-male genealogy, but these particular women are all associated with potential sex scandals. Matthew could have highlighted Jesus’ connection to Sarah, Rebecca, and Rachel, the matriarchs of Israel. But instead, he mentions Canaanites, prostitutes, and Moabite women, who would be associated with Israel’s sin and covenant failure.

Matthew wants his readers to see that God has been using all types of people to move his plan forward. This portrait of an inclusive and expanding God and kingdom will continue to appear beyond Matthew’s genealogy into the rest of his gospel. He will continue to include the rejects and outsiders into his family And this non-Israelite strand in Jesus’ family history will expand even wider in his final commission to his followers to go and “make disciples of all the nations” (Matt 28:19)
Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


And so, we read the genealogy of Matthew and see the royal lineage of Jesus. He’s the one who will bring the blessing of Abraham to the whole world. He’s the royal son of David that all of Israel has been waiting for. He’s the one that the prophets wrote about, and the psalmists sang about. He will be the king of Israel who blesses all of the nations of the world, especially the outsiders. We know all of this because Matthew tells us in a genealogy that carefully reveals the hope that has arrived in Jesus. ~ Matthew & Chronicles, the conneciton. | The Bible Project

​

Again - you're equating "the law" with legalism, rule following - and it's not. "The Law" is simply the Torah - the Scripture that the ancient Jews memorized and formed their lives around. The purpose of the Law was to point towards Jesus - the Messiah - God incarnate. The theme is His love for us (and His desire for us to abide in His love) all through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

However - you CAN find find OT verses that were instruction to love God (is that what you're arguing? Do you NOT see any instruction to love God in the OT?):

Here are just a few (there are loads more):

Deuteronomy 6:5:
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Deut 11:1
"You shall therefore love the LORD your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

Joshua 22:5
"Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul."

Psalm 31:23
O love the LORD, all you His godly ones! The LORD preserves the faithful And fully recompenses the proud doer.​

I'm glad that I don't need your approval for what I believe about God's purpose in creating humanity.

That study is 7 months of daily reading of the Old Testament - so it's not something I can encapsulate here.

Please explain what any of this has to do with LK 16:16.[/quote]

 

[ace of hearts]

Hopefully, you understand that Wikipedia is not a primary source of information and that almost anyone can provide information to Wikipedia.

Is Hillel found in the Bible, or the writings of Josephus, or does his information only come from later rabbinic sources which were written after 70 AD?

.

According to what was posted about Hillel, it's impossible for him to be an authority about Christianity.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

According to what was posted about Hillel, it's impossible for him to be an authority about Christianity.

See again you make no sense...Hillel died in 10 AD!

 

[Shimshon]

According to what was posted about Hillel, it's impossible for him to be an authority about Christianity.

Agreed, Hillel did not teach about the Messiah nor was he an authority on him. Yet Do you know who Gamaliel is?

 

[ace of hearts]

See again you make no sense...Hillel died in 10 AD!

If Hillel dies in 10 AD, how can he be an authority about Christianity, Who's founder is Jesus, Who deceased as a human in approximately 33 AD? Just curious question trying to make sense of what is being posted.

 

[ace of hearts]

Agreed, Hillel did not teach about the Messiah nor was he an authority on him. Yet Do you know who Gamaliel is?

yes

 

[Shimshon]

yes

So don't you think it's interesting that Paul learned at the foot of Hillel's grandson? I do. All the Spirit had to do was open his eyes to Yeshua and all his training in the law would be used by the Spirit to reveal Yeshua to the nations. This is why Paul was chosen by Yeshua. He was perfectly formed by birth for the task.

Hillel's grandson is who Paul learned from about the law being Holy and good, while the Spirit revealed to him how the adversary used sin to further empower the law. God used him who was trained at the foot of Gamaliel to reveal the glory of the Lord to the world. All things work to the glory of God the Father.

 

[mkgal1]

There's nothing in the OT one needs to know to be a Christian. Everything the Christian needs to know is found in the NT. In fact there's more in the NT than a person needs to know to be a Christian.

Just saving this gem for now. I don't have the time to respond.

 

[Shimshon]

If Hillel dies in 10 AD, how can he be an authority about Christianity, Who's founder is Jesus, Who deceased as a human in approximately 33 AD? Just curious question trying to make sense of what is being posted.

I believe he's making the connection in this way. Since Hillel was a master Torah teacher And Jesus is the Torah incarnate The word made flesh. That makes Hillel an authority about Jesus because Jesus speaks about and points to the Torah.

A false dichotomy

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

What commandments is Jesus talking about in -

Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Christians' obedience is an expression of their love. The same measure of love that God has toward Christ the latter has toward his own, and so the union is a perfect one, and should be kept.

All that abide in the love which Christ has for them are safe by that love. This abiding is done by keeping Christ's commandments. This brings the possession and enjoyment of Christ.

Christians will delight in observing all the commandments, all Jesus' sayings, above all that one concerning the clinging to the Gospel as salvation. This abiding in Christ, in the Word, is the result of God's grace.

God that began the good work in us by planting us into Christ, will also do it until glory's great day.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If Hillel dies in 10 AD, how can he be an authority about Christianity, Who's founder is Jesus, Who deceased as a human in approximately 33 AD? Just curious question trying to make sense of what is being posted.

Hillel was an expert in Torah. So was Yeshua. Hillel said the "golden rule". My point was that in that respect, they both taught the same thing. Why is something so simple as this so hard for you to grasp?

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah"
Hillel

"Do to others what you would have them do to you for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
Matthew 7:12

"Pass not judgment upon thy neighbor until thou hast put thyself in his place."
Hillel

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."
Luke 6:37

Gamaliel (the grandson of Hillel) is mentioned in Acts as the teacher of Paul.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Agreed, Hillel did not teach about the Messiah nor was he an authority on him. Yet Do you know who Gamaliel is?

He was the grandson of Hillel. He taught Paul.

 

[BABerean2]

Hillel died in 10 AD!

And how do you know this to be the truth, other than reading it in Wikipedia?

What did Paul say about the things he had learned from his teachers?

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;


Php_3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

.

 

[ace of hearts]

So don't you think it's interesting that Paul learned at the foot of Hillel's grandson? I do. All the Spirit had to do was open his eyes to Yeshua and all his training in the law would be used by the Spirit to reveal Yeshua to the nations. This is why Paul was chosen by Yeshua. He was perfectly formed by birth for the task.

Hillel's grandson is who Paul learned from about the law being Holy and good, while the Spirit revealed to him how the adversary used sin to further empower the law. God used him who was trained at the foot of Gamaliel to reveal the glory of the Lord to the world. All things work to the glory of God the Father.

Do you not understand what Paul says about the law? You point out the law is holy and good top which I agree. So it seems to you that we're to honor the law by following it. Where does Paul say this? No where is where. In fact Paul says we're now (presently) delivered from the law and even throw it out. Paul even says the law is currently in force only for the wicked. I'm sorry that this is so hard for you to understand. I was there myself.

 

[ace of hearts]

Just saving this gem for now. I don't have the time to respond.

That OK by me. When you find something in the OT about having eternal life let me know.

 

[ace of hearts]

I believe he's making the connection in this way. Since Hillel was a master Torah teacher And Jesus is the Torah incarnate The word made flesh. That makes Hillel an authority about Jesus because Jesus speaks about and points to the Torah.

A false dichotomy

Jesus isn't what we commonly call the Torah (the law). Hillel may have been a authority on the law (Torah), but those he taught failed to recognize their Messiah the law, prophets and Psalms talk about. So I'd say Hillel and Gamaliel failed.

 

[ace of hearts]

Christians' obedience is an expression of their love. The same measure of love that God has toward Christ the latter has toward his own, and so the union is a perfect one, and should be kept.

All that abide in the love which Christ has for them are safe by that love. This abiding is done by keeping Christ's commandments. This brings the possession and enjoyment of Christ.

Christians will delight in observing all the commandments, all Jesus' sayings, above all that one concerning the clinging to the Gospel as salvation. This abiding in Christ, in the Word, is the result of God's grace.

God that began the good work in us by planting us into Christ, will also do it until glory's great day.

It's not OK by me if you want to promote the law as a requirement for Christians. This is calling Christians wicked. See 1 Tim 1:9. Read the rest of the chapter while you're there specifically not what it says about those spouting the law. This isn't my doctrine and definitely not what is commonly taught for a reason.

 

[ace of hearts]

Hillel was an expert in Torah. So was Yeshua. Hillel said the "golden rule". My point was that in that respect, they both taught the same thing. Why is something so simple as this so hard for you to grasp?

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah"
Hillel

"Do to others what you would have them do to you for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
Matthew 7:12

"Pass not judgment upon thy neighbor until thou hast put thyself in his place."
Hillel

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."
Luke 6:37

Gamaliel (the grandson of Hillel) is mentioned in Acts as the teacher of Paul.

There is a communication problem because humans are relational creatures. That makes it very difficult to have a conversation. I'm trying very hard to not be preachy. I detest any of the things I see as options.

The whole NT testifies against you when it comes to the law.

So I return LK 6:37 back to you with your understanding and apparent use knowing you will reject it, too.