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Featured What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alithis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    How dare you say Jesus did sin! That is utterly wrong, unChristian, even blasphemous!
     
  2. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    He DID sin?
    Jesus sinned - seriously??

    No I'm not.
    For what it's worth, I am not that interested in buildings. The Great Commission is "GO into the world", not "try and persuade the world to come to our church." I wouldn't care if God's people met in a hired building, a school or a tent.

    I am not a passionate defender of buildings. What I DO object to is the implication that they are ALL worthless, corrupted or "under the spell of witchcraft", as someone else said.
    Yes, people can go to church for the wrong reasons, make an idol of a building and become attached to liturgy and ritual. That is just as true if Christians meet in a school, have no set liturgy and pride themselves on "free worship", which in practice means singing the same song 6 times."
    But that doesn't mean that this is the norm; that ALL liturgy is dead, buildings are corrupt and unbiblical and nothing good will ever go on there.
    Many, many people have sought, found and worshiped God in a church building.
    For some, the building DOES represent some sign of hope, comfort and assurance of God's presence. You might think that should not be so, but it is. People have to learn gradually.
    Abraham and co built altars to God and as memorials of what he had done for them.
    The Israelites first had a tabernacle, that they carried everywhere. It contained the ark of the covenant; a sign of God's presence. When the ark was captured by non Jews; bad things happened.
    Years later, Solomon built a temple, a sign of God's presence in his Holy City, and the ark of the covenant is not mentioned again. (I think it was kept in the Holy of Holies, but it doesn't feature as much as it did in Exodus.)
    Then Jesus came and taught that God was with us and would be in us; the temple was destroyed, the Spirit came at Pentecost and the early church taught that we are temples of the Spirit.

    People who carried the tabernacle around would not have dreamt that God could live IN them; the truth was revealed gradually.
    Some people may still be at the stage in their christian journey where a building IS important to them - I used to be like that. I did not want to leave my first church as a young adult because it represented security, happy memories, acceptance and so on. I don't feel that way now; I've grown. But some people haven't and may never. Or, some people may know that a building isn't important, but their continued attendance at a church speaks of loyalty, commitment and continuity. Again, whether or not we think it SHOULD be the case is irrelevant; it IS.
     
  3. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    You missed the context by ignoring it: my LEADERSHIP is from the Word of God Himself:

    You don't need "leadership," as it were, if you have a Living King.

    Leadership (in the institutions, specifically) was a part of the context.


    This is your right as a sovereign human.



    We can't even discuss witchcraft in the institutions because you don't even know what it is by your own admissions. So, how could you even understand where to look for it in the institutions? Moreover, you don't sound like you believe it exists, or that because you have seen your churches act in a way you believe is Godly, that I am being hyperbolic. That is your right to believe.



    That is your right to believe as a sovereign human.



    You don't know what witchcraft is, or where to look for it - because, if you did we wouldn't be arguing about its presence in the institutions, we would be arguing about something else that is far more important... like what to do as a spiritual body to 1) shine a light on it, and/or 2) unite on our own to separate ourselves.

    I am not going to argue about minutia with you. I said exactly what I meant in all of my posts - including this one. If you feel a certain way about it, then that is your right as a sovereign human. Cheers.
     
  4. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Witchcraft in the Greek (New Testament witchcraft) is pharmakia, which you should realize as drugs ("potions") - not the kind of drugs that grow out of the ground, however if used for "trips," or divination, then it is witchcraft. Otherwise, it refers to potions, or pharmaceuticals.

    Drugs, and Trips... that is what witchcraft is. You can have a trip through a drug, or someone can induce a psychological "trip" that is comparable to a drug. This is part of what I meant by witchcraft.
     
  5. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    You also ignored the context and content of this post, it seems, where I explicitly outlined thesis of my argument

    It's no time to placate the truth. The institutions known as "churches" are under a spell of witchcraft. This is the beginning of the apostasy - and those under a spell defend the apostasy because of the part of the curse that involves ignorance, and taught ignorance.

    It seems like not all institutions are under a spell, but when you believe in hierarchy and institution for the purposes of building a relationship with God, it should be clearer that that won't work. Add to that

    the history of the institution that goes unchallenged, or, rather remains "invictus"

    A hierarchy that is distractionary, and leads to people extolling people

    the power of the leadership, and the incessant mal-psychology of the rich, favored and poor in relation to blessing.

    The abuse (which is purely witchcraft)

    the culture of ignoring the Law of the Most High God and the call to obedience...

    An ignorance of the Word of God Himself as the 1) full representation of the very abridged canonical text, 2) Living, and 3) King.

    I was being nice in my previous statement.​
     
  6. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    I never once said that I thought God lived in a church building. If you read over everything I said, you will find that. Church buildings are a gathering place. No more, no less. Acts 7 is Stephen speaking to the Sanhedrin about this very thing. In context, he is reminding them that through the New Covenant, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit is inside of them rather than in the temple.

    However, this was not always the case. 1 Kings 8:10-11, in reference to Solomon's Temple, states, "When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the Lord. And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled his temple."
    Earlier in 1 Kings, God says to Solomon, "As for this temple you are building, if you follow my decrees, observe my laws and keep all my commands and obey them, I will fulfill through you the promise I gave to David your father. And I will live among the Israelites and will not abandon my people Israel." (1 Kings 6:11-13)
    Elsewhere, in the days of the Tabernacle, God says, "Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them." (Exodus 25:8)
    I am aware this was under the Old Covenant, but even so, the idea of designated places of worship are not new.
    I also want to make it extremely clear that just because I am referencing these passages does not mean I think churches are places where God dwells permanently. Of course, under the New Covenant, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit of God is within us. However, it is inaccurate to say that God never once dwelt in a temple or in a tabernacle under the Old Covenant.

    What is being defended is the idea of a church building as a gathering place. We may gather in other places, there is no reason to call church buildings sinful.

    I hope I have made myself clear.
     
  7. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    I understand that. However, the etymology @Alithis gave the English word was incorrect, so I was correcting him on that. I probably ought to have added that it made no sense for him to use the English word as evidence in the first place since the Bible was not originally written in English.

    Now as for the original Greek word, the reason that pharmakia is the root of the word "pharmaceuticals" is because medicine as we know it is descended from ancient potions made via trial-and-error—and yes, unfortunately, amulets purported to be magical were sometimes involved in this.
    However, I find the extrapolation of pharmakia to be comparing someone to a drug-induced trip to be a stretch, to say the least, and I can't recall seeing pharmakia or any word referring to witchcraft used in this sense in the Bible and in the writings of the Early Church. If I am wrong and you have a specific example of this, then please correct me, but as far as I know, when people are described as practicing magic/witchcraft in the Bible, it is made clear by context they are practicing it in the divination/communing with the dead/etc. sense. There is a distinct difference between witchcraft and false prophecy, although both are equally wrong. If we are talking about the latter, we ought to call it what it is.
     
  8. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    I see, my mistake.


    Drugs/potions were, and are still used for divination. Some of them have been derived whose main marketing focus is something else other than what people think of as divination. But, the side effects are part of the same risk that comes with taking a magical potion - as well as the effects used to potentiate divination.

    For example, what we call hallucinations as a side-effect from a drug is what one who knows their magical target would expect to experience. We just call them side-effects because most of us don't know what magick is. Even if one doesn't believe in magic, it doesn't mean someone else who does can't exploit it for their gain.
     
  9. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    I understand that.
    Drug-use as magic/religious rite was/is particularly common in many ancient cultures, particularly in Indigenous American cultures. However, most people taking prescription medicine are taking it for health reasons, not to contact demons or commune with the dead, so personally I wouldn't call taking medicine as prescribed by a physician "witchcraft". But in instances of someone taking medicine to get high as part of a "spiritual experience", then I could get behind labelling it as witchcraft.

    Either way, witchcraft is different than false prophecy.
     
  10. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    He did sin
    He did NOT sin..its a typo .. ;)
     
  11. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Youve kind of lost the topic before you started..
     
  12. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Right. I am not talking about false prophecy. Witchcraft in the bible is drug use or a religious rite. This isn't because that is all there is to magic, the context is because this was the extent of the magic they saw as obviously damning.

    False prophecy is false prophecy, but the root of all magic is to bend the natural world (including humans) to one's own will. That definitely happens in the Church.

    As far as medication, just because I take DMT for health reasons doesn't mean I won't trip, and open up doorways that lead to divination. Lots of people know how to use the "magic of DMT", and may be much more well-equipped to handle the "side effects". People on prescription medication may not be seeking divination, but this is why it is best to stay away from drugs altogether. They open up doorways that one may not know how to close. Demons and their inter-dimensional influence is a real thing. We give them dominion over our bodies and minds under ignorance - which is what I prefaced my posts with: that the institution of the Church is under a spell of ignorance.
     
  13. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    For goodness sake, the US is thinking about allowing ketamine and magic mushrooms as remedies for clinical depression. We have to know what is what to draw the line before you get an entire people open for demonic influence.
     
  14. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    That's good to hear. :)

    BTW, what did you mean when you said to me a while back, "you're not allowed"?
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Ok.
    But I don't believe that to be entirely true.

    Israel were told they didn't need to choose a king because they had God;if that's what you are thinking of, that is true.
    But that's not the same as saying we don't need people to lead services, oversee church matters, counsel the faithful and give personal support/guidance where required, and so on.

    I know what I mean by witchcraft, and what the Bible says about it. It includes fortune telling and contact with the dead, and is forbidden - like when Saul contacted a medium to speak to the dead prophet Samuel. It is connected with the occult, since these things are from the devil and not from God, and in some places the devil may be openly called upon, summoned, offered sacrifices or "prayed" to. These places are usually covens or spiritualist meetings.

    That is what I mean by witchcraft - and I think a number of people would say the same. I do believe it exists, and I see no relation between it and what happens in a church service of worship.
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I disagree.
    When Moses threw down his staff and it became a serpent, that was a sign from God.
    Pharaoh's magicians did the same thing, or replicated the miracle. Clearly the power to do that was not from God, since they didn't honour him and were magicians, so it must have come from elsewhere. Jesus told us that in the last days, false prophets would come who would be able to replicate miracles and deceive people, Mark 13:22. Somewhere else we are told that the devil himself can appear as an angel of light. Mediums are people who contact the dead, and King Saul consulted one to summon the spirit of the prophet Samuel. In Acts of the Apostles 8:9-25 the apostles were followed around by a sorcerer called Simon who was known as a "great power" and performed magic. Peter was upset by this and told him to repent as his heart was full of sin.

    Witchcraft, as I, the Bible and I think others see it, is having some power which is not from God, and gives one the ability to do supernatural things; contact dead people, predict others' futures and so on.
    All this looks similar, to a non Christian, to God's miracles, prophecy and so on - but the power and spiritual force behind this is NOT God, who is pure, holy, good, love and so on.

    If a church leader controls people or abuses his/her position to influence others and make them do what he/she wishes, that is not witchcraft, but human manipulation and control. Yes, it is a sin and all sin is from Satan, but it is not the same thing.
    And I dispute that ALL church leaders do this; I don't know of any who do.
    As I have said elsewhere, a lot of churches have church councils which are made up of elected members of the congregation; they discuss, and decide on, church matters. It is not about a church leader coming along and exercising a sort of hypnotic control over people who are forced to obey. At least, not where I live and worship. I have heard of churches where the leader dictates what people do, how much they give, maybe even who they go out with or marry. Personally I'd leave a church like that - but I still wouldn't regard their leader as practising witchcraft; implying that they are from, or in league with, the devil.
     
  17. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Which is contrary to the original topic you put forward in this. How? The LORD didn't ask Moses to do the sacrifices.

    Moses (type of Christ) was instructed to have specified men to serve in His earthly temple. Jesus wants specific men to be capable of carrying the earthly duties to serve a much larger congregation.

    And as history shows, not only can this earthly system be corrupted and subject to rather bad flaws but also the early Church still continued in the more ancient traditions at Temple Acts of the Apostles 21:26.

    Basically even though they were aware of corruption taking place in the Temple John 2:16 they didn't give up on maintaining some other traditions Acts of the Apostles 17:2. By suggesting that the "The entire system of sunday meetings and buildings is based upon a principle of Control and money", is a far too big of a claim. It likewise needs a rather big accusation against it. It needs to be examined with the error of Korah in mind.

    So I'll stand by my first post and reaffirm it.
     
  18. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    What Moses did was not magick. What the scientists/Egyptian magicians did was magic, because it was for the purposes of manipulating natural laws in order to gain their own will. The root of magic is manipulating natural laws to bend to your will.

    This is why I said most people don't realize they are under a spell, because of their myopic view of witchcraft. Most all people do not realize they are under a spell. Magic isn't just pedestrian - that is the reason why so many people can openly benefit from it; very few recognizes it for what it is.
     
  19. ace of hearts

    ace of hearts Well-Known Member

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    Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

    24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


    Sorry but I just don't see this happening at church.

    By my personal experience I concur with many if not all the charges brought up here concerning the current IC.
     
  20. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No, my point is not moot. Your post to which I originally responded in my post 73 included the following "Indeed, we should meet in order to edify and encourage one another as the scriptures say; however the nature of our Sunday worship meetings don't reflect that. In our formal services, only the paid professionals receive the focus of our attention. The great majority remain spectators content to sit and enjoy the entertainment thereby disqualifying the NFL as the greatest spectator sport on Sundays." That is a blanket statement on your past. It would have been different if you had prefaced in by saying "in some churches" only the paid professionals receive the focus of attention, or "in some churches" the congregation remain spectators. You didn't do that. Don't make blanket statements that don't apply in every situation. I never claimed that all churches follow the ELCA model, I simply offered a situation showing that your words do not apply to all churches.
     
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