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Featured What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alithis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    The old ..you cant judge me... Stance.. Used rather often ..it doesn't justify any thing. But it does hint that there is a wrong that one feels they need to justify... Which speaks volumes.

    But scripture for scripture helps .....

    For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?..Peter wrote that.

    ...What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? Paul wrote that.. So lets not hide behind anything.
    Lets step back..take a look.
     
  2. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Not at the age of 8 days, or 12 years, old he didn't.
    He entered the temple to keep the Jewish feasts, like the feast of tabernacles, John 7 - as all Jewish men were required to do.

    They crucified him because they didn't believe his claim that he was equal with God, didn't like that he was healing, teaching and getting lots of followers - and because God had sent him to offer his life for the sin of the world.
    He preached that message inside, and outside, the temple. If the building had been a hindrance to his message, or if he would have been corrupted by going into one; he wouldn't have done so.
     
  3. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    It's no time to placate the truth. The institutions known as "churches" are under a spell of witchcraft. This is the beginning of the apostasy - and those under a spell defend the apostasy because of the part of the curse that involves ignorance, and taught ignorance.

    It seems like not all institutions are under a spell, but when you believe in hierarchy and institution for the purposes of building a relationship with God, it should be clearer that that won't work. Add to that

    the history of the institution that goes unchallenged, or, rather remains "invictus"

    A hierarchy that is distractionary, and leads to people extolling people

    the power of the leadership, and the incessant mal-psychology of the rich, favored and poor in relation to blessing.

    The abuse (which is purely witchcraft)

    the culture of ignoring the Law of the Most High God and the call to obedience...

    An ignorance of the Word of God Himself as the 1) full representation of the very abridged canonical text, 2) Living, and 3) King.

    I was being nice in my previous statement.
     
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  4. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    You also need to call out and judge the immoral churches in order to be a good church. What ends up happening is that those good churches that call the others out end up buckling under the infamy, and dissolve into fellowship without the luxury of a building - Which is what Church is, and why the blessing would be bitter-sweet.
     
  5. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I would imagine that is true of every Christian. If it's not, then that is even more dangerous. It means a person has read Scripture, interpreted it and formed their doctrines all on their own, without the help of anyone who is older, wiser and more knowledgeble about the faith.

    Of course.
    But in the context of your words about people working 6 days a week and getting paid, rather than trusting God to provide, it was not unreasonable to think that "living by faith" meant, shunning work and a salary and praying and trusting God to provide what you need.
    Which is fine if God has told you to live that way; but in most cases, he hasn't. God provides for most people through other people - even Jesus was supported financially by women, Luke 8:3. Which means that there may be a lot of Christians working hard, 6 days a week, earning a good salary and faithfully giving some of it to charity or the church, just so that others can go around saying "isn't it wonderful I don't have to work; I can just ask God to meet my needs".

    Yes; many of us do.
    But unless God has specifically said "give up your possessions, do not work for money but just trust me" - it is not right to do so.
    Many Christians are led by God to become teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers and ordained clergy, and it is certainly not wrong to do what he has asked us to do.
     
  6. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    The ones that I know are under the leadership, and Lordship, of Christ.
    I don't know how it is where you come from.

    You were being judgmental.
    Unless you have visited and/or personally know ALL churches; unless you have evidence that they follow witchcraft and the occult, it is a judgement to say that they do.
     
  7. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't come From anywhere - mine is the Word of God Himself. You don't need "leadership," as it were, if you have a Living King.


    I just told you I was judging; the Church has been paralyzed and petrified by the "you can't judge" claptrap. I wonder why...

    You are called to judge righteously. As I said, this is not a time to placate the Truth. People shouldn't justify their spiritual life based on human institutions and doctrine, especially when the Word of God Himself is alive. Fellowship is paramount for interaction between body. Two or more, and He is there. No edifice needed.
     
  8. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I said, "Where YOU come from", not "where IT comes from."

    If you know for a fact that a church is under the spell of, and practises, witchcraft, it is not wrong to say so. That is not judging, that is telling it as it is and telling the truth in love.
    If you make a sweeping statement that MOST churches are under the spell of witchcraft, when you don't know them, haven't visited them, and are just going by what you perceive, by public opinion or by 2nd hand information - you ARE judging.
    What is witchcraft? Casting spells? Offering pagan sacrifices on the altar? Chanting mythical/new age spells instead of reading, preaching and learning the word of God?
    How many churches do that - where's your evidence?

    Because Jesus told us not to judge, maybe? Just an idea.

    You have not proved that it IS the truth.
    You have not demonstrated that most of the churches even in your town and country, never mind the whole world, are under the spell of witchcraft - mine isn't.
    If you know any that are - visit them and go ahead and judge them.

    Jesus is alive and alive within some of the churches you are writing off as occultic.

    No, no edifice NEEDED - but that is very far from saying that any such edifice is therefore of the occult and under the curse of witchcraft.
    God has blessed, worked through and brought revival in many a service held in a church building.
     
  9. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I answered your question. You prefaced your rhetoric by stating that the institutions you know are under the leadership of the Word of God. I stated that

    It doesn't come From anywhere - mine is the Word of God Himself.
    And, you left off a large part of the context:

    You don't need "leadership," as it were, if you have a Living King.​

    I meant exactly what I said. There is no need for an institution because everyone who believes is part of the living Church. The Word of God made this clear several times; the ministry of the firstfruits of the Church (body) were preaching everywhere. The moved and lived similarly to the Word of God - constantly visiting and depending on the strangers they encounter spreading the Word of God Himself to others. (Where two or more are gathered in His name, He is in the midst of them). It was real mission work, it was not ecumenical, or institutional - a couple of things the Word of God preached against with the temple culture. And the Body of the Church is mission work. You don't have to travel overseas to do mission work.

    Right, but I am also judging them. I said that several times. It is not wrong to judge a situation that deserves judgment. The "Church" needs to stop preaching this, because it prevents the people from rightfully judging what is in front of their eyes.


    Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me? The crowd answered, You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you? Jesus answered them, I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.. John 7:19-24
    That was the Word of God Himself that said the above. Most people use this section as a justification for non-judgement:

    Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ... Romans 2:1-16
    Romans 2 is about hypocrites that judge wrongly - especially when they do the same things they are judging others for. A minister that is judging/condemning homosexuals but practices him/herself is a hypocrite. A minister that judges the kid that spews racism when he himself is a clansman is a hypocrite. These things, and others, happen in the church institution. And, it is the power afforded to men - given freely by the clergy (as it were). Elders should be recognized because of their fruits - not because of their academic profile in theology. You cannot teach someone how to love and trust God through institution - just like a marriage cannot be taught through institution.

    I told you I was judging, but perception is a matter of subjectivity - just like the perception that leads you to believe my statement may be sweeping, especially in spite of the evidence coming forward, and what the Word of God says. For example, if we are in the end times, then the Churches are going to get worse, not better. It shouldn't take decades of people screaming institutional abuse, an eventual centennial recognition of those victims, as well as a scapegoat offered up to ameliorate the people to get us to see what is going on. It shouldn't take stories and stories of people being swindled out of their rent, or turned away because of their sin when they seek help for us to get it.

    It should also be well within appropriate literary analysis to recognize that I cannot be talking about all churches. Even the Word of God Himself recognized Philadelphia - but He was literally recognizing brotherly love. At least 1/7 of the churches are actual good churches. But, ironically, an edifice does not qualify or determine their meeting and fellowship. In other words, there is no institution.

    Ephesus: Overseer, center of worship for Artemis

    Smyrna: An Amazonian

    Pergamum: The throne of (a) satan

    Thyatria: "White Castle" (wealth and opulence)

    Sardis: Capital (luxury)

    Laodicea: Lukewarm

    There was already witchcraft in the churches at that time. He told John (and us) a model for the way the world is, and will be. Assuming equal parts, only 1/7 of the churches will actually get it right. Church is not about hierarchy, that is a distraction.

    You need to figure this out first before you guess.

    The Most High God through the Word of God has already told us what witchcraft is. Me repeating it won't make a difference under these circumstances. Figure out what witchcraft is, and then we can talk.

    The Word of God is the first evidence (His actual guide on what to look out for). What institutions do is the evidence. How many churches? That is an asinine question that would create a strawman. I gave you a representative guess above.

    The Word of God told us not to judge as hypocrites. He didn't tell us we couldn't judge righteously.



    You can read what the Truth, Himself, actually says several times about churches then, and what to look out for now. There is nothing new under the sun.


    You don't even know what witchcraft is; how can you know if your church institution practices witchcraft? How would recognize it without believing it is a possibility in the first place?

    Why would I visit them (again)? As far as judgment, I have already judged the behavior and structure. The Most High God will judge their destination after this life; that isn't my place. Two different judgments.



    The Word of God is alive period. He doesn't need any institution to justify or substantiate His Life. He is glorified when two or more are gathered in His name.

    How can the Word of God be alive in an institution practicing witchcraft? "Occultic" is a bogeyman term (secrecy may have function, for example).



    I never said "any such edifice is therefore occultic under the curse of witchcraft," I specifically said that the institution of the church is under a spell of witchcraft. But, you have to know what you are looking for (i.e. what witchcraft it - even, you have to believe it exists).
     
  10. Lost4words

    Lost4words In reality, an old dog! Supporter

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    God still wanted a Temple built. Jesus, taught in them!
     
  11. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    The idea of Sunday as the Lord's Day goes back to the first century, actually, long before Constantine, and it was universal by the second century. The Christian liturgy also dates to before Constantine as well.

    It's also noteworthy that Christian architects following the legalization of Christianity made an effort to make their church buildings not resemble Roman or Greek temples in any way, in part to differentiate themselves from the polytheistic world around them, and in part to accommodate a larger number of people (The church was underground prior to Constantine's reign, but it had grown quite a bit.).

    I fail to see how deciding to have a church service on a Sunday putting tradition over Christ.

    Plenty of churches, particularly in rural areas, can't have church services on Sundays, so they hold them on other days. We oughtn't cling to traditions when they become impractical, and if a tradition is unbiblical we ought to be discerning of it, but we should not avoid something just because it's old. (In a similar vein, we ought not go to a way of doing things just because it's not old, but I digress).

    I'm gonna stop you right there, because lot of church traditions are Scriptural in origin. Many, such as the observance of Lent, are meant as tangible reminders of events occurring in the Bible, an important thing in cultures where literacy is uncommon (i. e. the Middle Ages).

    It should also be noted that 1 Corinthians 11:2 speaks about tradition in a positive light, as does 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

    Furthermore, a huge part of why people began building church buildings was for practical reasons.

    This is hypothetical, and it has not been my experience of such things.

    The church building used by the congregation I am part of flooded during Hurricane Harvey, with two feet of water on average throughout the building. Until we had the building cleaned up enough for people to safely go inside, we held service outside.
    In August. In Texas.
    During all that time, we did not stop serving the community. We had a tent set up in our parking lot with donations sent from throughout the church to help people who had lost everything. Whatever cleaning supplies were donated to the church, most of them went out to the community. Whoever showed up to help (and people from as far away as Massachusetts drove down to help us), almost all of them were sent out into the community. What's more, many went out into their communities outside of being sent there. We worked on restoring our building too, but our main focus was always on helping others who were in far greater need.
    It's been two years and our building, while functional, is still in the process of rebuilding. We don't have carpet. We only recently got the walls painted on the first floor.

    On the flip-side, there was one megachurch (whose name will be unsaid) in the area that was relatively unaffected by the flood, but did nothing to shelter the displaced or otherwise serve the community. However, said church is known for the pastor being a preacher of a false gospel.

    My point in telling you all of this is to say that the problem in the scenario being presented is not rooted in having a building. It's rooted in the congregation's leadership not being held accountable by the laity for their greed.

    This has literally never been my experience at any church I've been to, whether Baptist or Catholic. Now, I've been to services where gifts of money are asked for, but it's never been in the context of, "You are obligated to give your money to us".

    Speaking as someone from an Evangelical Baptist background who has been to several churches of this kind (in Texas, in Arkansas, what have you), it isn't. What you are describing is a very Joel Osteen-esque depiction of Evangelical Christianity, and I can say first-hand that any and every Baptist who knows who Joel Osteen is despises his theology and the way he misrepresents the Word of God.

    Agreed, indulgences are unscriptural, and yes, St. Peter's Basilica in Rome was funded by indulgences. I talked about indulgences and how they became a problem earlier in #138.

    However, a good number of cathedrals, basilicas, and chapels were not built off of indulgences. You're taking a pretty specific incident and applying it to all Catholic churches. Some were financed by noblemen. Others were built by monastic communities over long periods of time.

    Furthermore, Catholicism is not the only denomination with basilicas, chapels, and cathedrals, and those other denominations don't do indulgences. Eastern Orthodoxy does not do indulgences. Anglicanism does not do indulgences. The list goes on. Liturgical Christianity exists outside of Catholicism.

    I'm confused by what you're saying here. Obligatory tithe is bad, but so is giving of one's time and resources out of one's own free will? When we are called to be cheerful givers? Forgive me, but criticizing generosity makes no sense.

    I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't help people on the condition of conversion or attending church, but that's not an argument against having a church building or a clergy.

    Firstly, there are three different kinds of church leadership system. To which are you referring?

    Secondly, Ephesians 4:11-13 described Christ as giving the church leaders, so I would hardly call the existence of leaders in the church "man-made".

    I already discussed church polity and leadership in #131, though, so I won't rehash that.

    This I can agree on.

    Two assumptions are inherent in this statement.
    1) I have not already thought through anything you have said.
    2) Once I do, I will arrive at the same conclusion that you have.

    I have thought it through, and I've attempted to give an in-depth response as to why I still disagree.

    I also want you to know I am not saying any of this from a place of naivety. I know how people in the church can hurt each other. Even so, I know that this was not caused by having a clergy or being in a church building, but by humanity's own brokenness. This brokenness will not be fixed by not having church leaders or not meeting in buildings. It will only be fixed through all of us—clergy and laity alike—submitting to Christ.
     
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  12. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    Just because something is from the Old Testament does not mean it ought to be ignored. It's still part of the biblical canon for a reason.
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    But you didn't.

    In post #266 you said that the institutions known as "churches" are under a spell of witchcraft.
    My reply was that the ones I know of are under the Lordship of Christ.
    I was refuting your blanket judgement that churches are under the spell of witchcraft.

    I then said, "I don't know how it is where you come from" - meaning, I don't know what the situation's like where you live; your churches may be under the spell of witchcraft.
    You replied;

    which doesn't make sense, nor answer what I said.
    Your WHAT is the Word of God himself?

    I didn't "leave it off"; I was not answering that part of your statement.
    My reply was that I don't know of any churches under the spell of witchcraft - I refute your statement and judgement on that.

    The church is the people; we are all living bricks in God's temple - agreed.

    We meet in buildings so that we can all be together to worship, hear teaching, enjoy fellowship and pray for and with one another.
    We don't have to OWN the buildings we meet in, but that is why we have them; to save us trying to find church members who can fit 20+ into their living room. Even if this did happen each group of people would be isolated from, and likely to never meet, the others.
    Within these groups - whether in a large building or someone's own house - someone, or a team of people, needs to organise worship, decide how we study, serve and so on. This is Biblical and always has been - there were Pharisees, scribes, temple musicians, teachers of the law, Rabbis and so on. The 12 apostles were leaders of the church, and appointed elders in the churches that they founded. Paul talks about the need for order in worship, 1 Corinthians 14 because God is a God of peace not disharmony.

    Churches may sometimes become, or look like they are becoming institutions, when it is in fact about the Christians who worship and not the building. And there are certainly some Sunday Christians for whom it is all about tradition, singing "nice" hymns and the whole religious ritual.
    That is still a long way from saying that churches are "under the spell of witchcraft".

    And I'm saying that unless you personally know, or worship in, a particular local church, you have no idea whether it deserves judgement.

    Yes, I do.
    My complaint is that you appear to be equating worship in a church building, which you have judged to be an institution, and which is led by leaders, to be on a par with witchcraft. And that all churches are under this spell, or banner. That is wrong, and that is what I am objecting to.

    Having buildings, leaders, rules, committees and so on may not be ideal or even desirable - it is not witchcraft.
     
  14. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    He obeyed his parants untill he was of age ... He did not sin you see.
    And your just dedending a dead building..
    So i will leave you to your dead building .


    Thanks to whom it may concern for correction.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  15. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Lets see What God says of your building... Even thr one Solomon built under the Old covenant..the covenant God has" done away with.... " when he sent Jesus to die and End it to make the new.

    From acts 7...But it was Solomon who built a house for him.
    “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

    “ ‘Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool.
    What kind of house will you build for me?
    says the Lord.
    Or where will my resting place be?
    Has not my hand made all these things?’ l

    “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! ..".
    __________

    I do enjoy the scriptures.
     
  16. Blade

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    Hmm Alithis… you say things like "is based upon a principle of Control and money". Not just one group but "entire system". "every aspect the theology surrounding churched leadership is corrupted and domineering ".

    A few lines of text and that's it? I did notice something you dodge when asked.. its ok. God does not treat us the nations exactly as He does Israel. And Moshe(Moses) up to Christ then the 12.. then expands to the world. Something NEW happened. Did not Christ say to Peter "feed my sheep".

    Misconception comes to mind.. if you knew me you would know lol I didn't think of that word. We need to start at the error. "control and money" <--this is not true. This is how YOU see it. A preacher pastor Rabbi Father.. what ever you wish to list...God did in fact put in charge as He did Peter "Feed my sheep". Back the start "entire system". We always need someone OVER us. Or we can get deceived. A home Church.. same way.. SOMEONE is in charge..someone started it. Some one is out there making more. That someone leaves others in charge. NOT to rule over..not to control.

    As one said.. you lump all together. One has to step back and ask.. could I be wrong? Ask the one that started it all. Is HE not real? Does HE not talk? ALWASYS back up what you say with the word. And give people MORE INFO! Not just "entire system, control and money". bless you :)
     
  17. ChicanaRose

    ChicanaRose Well-Known Member

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    Recently, I see a lot of Christian Youtubers commenting on this subject. Is this (not going to church thing) a new movement? [And please excuse me for my ignorance].
     
  18. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    As is often the case you may have a different understanding of what that poster means by witchcraft.
    Do you think they mean a group of woman in a circle in a dark loung somewhere mumbling curses? (Its that too)
    But a far more cimmon and insidious form of it is when. Peope in self appointed control over others take that which is straight and twist it to fit thier own ends...
    Its where you get wicker and manipulate it to another shape and form
    Hence wicker craft.
    The term witchcraft.
    When others attempt to manipulate peoplevto Do Thier will above Gods will
    To worship the way they say to
    To worship created beings along with God.
    To give monies to thier own goal and ends
    To adhere to ways doctrines and traditions that God has never spoken
    Its all manipulations by men speaking in monologue ... Long crafty speeches to lead astray..
    Etc
     
  19. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    Jesus was sinless. He never sinned, and furthermore He was conceived and born without original sin (2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 1 John 3:5, Isaiah 53:9).

    Jesus was capable of being without sin because He was fully God. He was capable of taking the place of humanity because He was also fully human. Because of this, He was an acceptable sacrifice and replacement for our sins.

    If Jesus was just another sinful man, then He would not be an adequate sacrifice. If He was not an adequate sacrifice, then there is no reason to be a Christian at all.
     
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  20. R. Genevieve

    R. Genevieve Member

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    That's not the etymology for the word "witchcraft", though. "Witch" comes from a proto-Germanic word meaning "to foretell" and "craft" comes from the Old English "cræft", meaning "skill". Basket-weaving has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    When witchcraft appears in the Bible it appears either as divination (as in the Book of Jonah) or attempts to contact the dead (as when Saul attempted to contact Samuel from beyond the grave).

    What you are describing is never described as witchcraft, but as false teaching.
     
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