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Featured What church calls leadership is a corrupt theology

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Alithis, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    . . . yes, if the ones you mean really are bad examples. But how many do you know personally so you can say they are bad examples . . . out of possibly the million or more leaders in only the United States? There might be even a million leaders in America alone; I do not think you have gotten to know all of them personally so you can know each one's real character and say if they are real Christian examples or not. So, who do you mean by this statement, and how many have you really checked out??

    1 Timothy 3:1-10 and 1 Peter 5:3.

    And yes ones approved by Jesus can be not perfect . . . for example, Peter when he messed up in Antioch > Galatians 2:11-13. But my opinion is Peter matured, got correction, learned from his errors . . . so then he could write his two epistles including from his own personal experience of how God in us changes our character to be like Christ and has us become loving the way Jesus in us has us loving. And thus we can join our true examples.
     
  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have been in groups who have been hospitable and with good discussions. And we were not all of the same feather. Yes, there are user-friendly groups who might try to have ones of the same interests in a group. But I do think each of us humans is unique, and therefore even our inbred groups can be each unique. In ours, we had certain ones who had agendas, to some extent. But I think you can find this in even more Biblical churches, except I see how the agenda people can't get anywhere when we have more mature people who have established the church and keep an eye on things.

    "For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you." (1 Corinthians 11:19)

    So, from this I see how Paul knew there were wrong ones among the Christians, but he also knew how Jesus' sheep can tell the difference, and recognize those who are approved.
     
  3. Archivist

    Archivist Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Well said.

    The church that I attend operates a food bank that provides food to many needy in the area each year. We could not do that without our building. Likewise, during warm weather we grow vegetables so that those in need can have fresh vegetables. We could not do that without our building and the surrounding property. Several years ago we added a gym to our church. It gets opened in the evenings and on weekends to the local youth giving them a place to come play basketball and volleyball. We couldn't do that without the building. We hold daytime and evening Bible studies in the building, and groups ranging from the knitters and quilters to the choir to the church cooks (who make casseroles for the sick and shut in) use the building daily. That is all in addition to our church services and Sunday School classes that are held in the building.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  4. lismore

    lismore Legend

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    Yes! There are spiritually toxic churches out there but there are also many good churches. It's an important ministry when meeting someone who has been hurt in church, to gently help them heal and to lead them to a good place to fellowship.

    I like this scripture:

    A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory (Matt 12:20).

    I think it speaks to people who are dealing with past hurts and shows how the Lord has his hand gently on them.

    :)
     
  5. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I didn't say it was.

    I said that.

    That's one definition.
    Humans don't have the power to manipulate natural laws - like turning sticks into snakes; so that power has to come from somewhere else.

    Under what spell; from whom?
    I'm not under any spell.
     
  6. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    "That's one definition..."

    That IS the definition of magick: manipulating natural law to assert and manifest your own will. You seem to believe Hollywood's version of magick. You should know how your enemy operates.


    "Humans do not have the power to manipulate natural laws"

    You are painfully bounded by your logic like most people - which is humanity's best way of adhering to an ordered system. The knee jerk reactions from you are predictable, which is why I never actually went any further than a superficial argument about "religuosity" with you. I cant go further with you, because as soon as you hear something you think is wild, we will lose all progress while you deal with it. That is why the alleged illogical distracts and confused you, and many others. You cannot entertain anything outside of your basis.

    "I'm not under any spell..."

    You can't tell someone they are under a spell if they don't believe in magic.

    I meant, and mean everything I said.
     
  7. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    We are in no way told or instructed to do anything the way it is being done. Yet All denominations are doing it.. So yup..the entire system...
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  8. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    ..feel free to have the one that doesn't spend a minimum of 3 minutes coercing money by the very act of collecting it ..contact me ;)
     
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I do believe in magic.
    I do not believe humans can, in their own power, change natural events - like turning a staff into a snake. We can pray to God for healing, or to control the weather, or to prompt them to ask questions/bring them to salvation - but that it not us doing it in our own power.
    There are people who would call themselves white witches, who might say that by casting or chanting a spell they can make 2 people fall in love/get someone a new job or something they have always wanted, heal an illness or whatever. I believe there is a power other than God's at work there, and it is certainly not in the witch's own power that they do those things.
    I do not believe that Christians and ordained clergy come into that category - even if there are a few who abuse their position and sadly try to control people's lives.

    Like I said, I do not believe there is magic being practised in the church. So the subject is not connected to the title of the thread, which is church leadership.
     
  10. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Nobody coerces money from their congregations.
    People aren't forced to give to freewill offerings.
     
  11. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Ok.
     
  12. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    You perhaps should look into coersion..
    Ever sat and given.nothing while an offering plate/bag goes by...
    Ever put nothing in a collection box while people look on..

    Sure..you were free to not put anything in
    But you felt awkward...
    And next time you went ..you made sure you had a little sonething to put in...
    That.. Is coersion. It need not be the persausive pep talk...
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes.

    Not at all.

    No - not even before I started giving by direct debit.
     
  14. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It would be necessary to show us the scriptures where Christians are instructed not to have Sunday or Saturday meetings and have buildings. Otherwise the system is fine and claiming it's based on corrupt theology will be in error.
     
  15. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    The collection plate thing is interesting. I wanted to not take up a collection during the service, but just have a bowl or box or something which people could put their donations into (or not) at the back of the church. It was the lay people who refused to do it that way and insisted they wanted to make their offering in the context of the service of worship.
     
  16. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes, that happened in my former church too.
     
  17. Pioneer3mm

    Pioneer3mm Member Supporter

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    Modern church is another "system/establishment", like political/social system.
    - Any type of churches ( denominational & nondenominational ) is part of that system" - or on the way to become..
    - Even house church can become an establishment!
    - I have been involved in many type of churches since 1970's.
    ----
    People like system/establishment.
    - They are very comfortable with "nicely packaged church services/programs".
    - That is why "more nicely packaged" ones are popular models.
    - Leaders/leadership are giving what people want!
    ----
    In most churches, pastors/leaders/staff are just employees.
    -Many times, they have to follow orders from "those who hold power" - who are in behind
    the scenes. I saw/experienced this..from both sides.
    - They might deny that it was an "order".. they use more mild term to others -
    to explain what is going on.
    - That is church politics!
    - I assume that some people on this thread know about
    this.. (who have been involved in churches )
    ----
    There is a mega church..not far from where I live.
    -Recently, new "lead pastor" was "hired" from many candidates/applicants.
    - He is just another employee..he knows that!
    -------
    One of the best quotes about church.
    - " In the beginning, the church was a fellowship centering
    on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became
    a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution.
    Next it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And finally, it came to
    America where it became an enterprise. " by Richard Halverson
    - A sense of humor here.
    He was in the system..for many years.
    Maybe that is why he wrote this statement..from experience in the system.
    ---
    Note: I wrote similar comment ( part of..) in another thread.
    - Some people might be reading it again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  18. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

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    Hi.. There are mostly the same realizations going on throughout Christiandom.
    Its falling into two groups.. Those who follow
    A mam made system and those who realized God didnt make a man made ststem and " church" has never been about a place or building one Goes to.

    The word church in English is a translation of the word EKKLESIA ..
    It literally means " the called out ones'

    Those called Out of the world who gather to Jesus.
    Where or when or how many is irrelevant.

    The system of what is called church is a man made heirachy which (even though it denies it) demands one be in submittance to its hierachy .
    Some saying if you dont join it you xant be saved. Buts that has no scriptural basis.
    It is a complicated topic .
    But one aspect that musy be clarified...
    The church are those people called out of the world who gather to JESUS...
    It is those people who have obeyed that call.
    To be a part of it one must believe repent of sin . bury thier old life in Christ acording to scripture and recoeve the holy Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit then leads people into all truth.
    He never leads people into idolatry
    Or covetousness but always to Jesus .the one who IS truth..
    He said the gentiles(heathen, those who have not repented but remain in sin ) exercise Authority over one another and Lord it over one another... But with you it is NOT so....

    So we see that those who seek to RULE over the called out ones.. Are NOT of the called out ones...

    Now , many who would say.." But my church is not like that " immediatly contradict themselves..because a congragation is not a church... It is a gathering of the ekklesia .a gathering of the called out ones.
    It has no set day no set form no individual leader but Jesus the head .Who governs it by the Holy Spirit.
    It is a living entity in which God by his Holy Spirit dwells. A temple Not made by mens hands.
    It is so very far removed from the man made system that not only can they not see it.in times past they murdered those of it .
    And persecute it still today.
    It is not a place it is not a building ,it is not rum by men or ruled over by men , it is not subject to men and never will be..
    It is the body of Christ and answers only to its head.
    Its not a denomination its in no one definable place .
    It is not Of this world.it is In this world but it is not of this world .
    It is Spiritual.. For God is Spirit and those who worship him must do so in Spirit and in truth.
    Not in organisations made by men or buildings to capture them in.
     
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  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We don't have a collection. Often enough, not a word is said about money, for weeks; we do give, but we trust the leaders to take care of money matters . . . while we need to be busy with doing all which His word says to do > and, by the way, God's word is the real money which makes His thing happen . . . by means of His grace, of course > Isaiah 55:11.

    We talk about how God is changing us into the likeness of Jesus, and loving as His family, and having compassion for people in need. And do not make a project of looking down on others and pointing at how they are wrong. But need to get our own real correction with God our Father > Hebrews 12:4-11.

    But in order to do well in a church where there are real Jesus people, I need how God corrects me, so I can tell the difference. Because we have problem and troubled and impossible people. But so did Jesus, as His disciples. But Jesus never gave up on any of His disciples. So, we need to follow the example of Christ, by never giving up on anyone > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

    God's love will get us into contact with whom He knows He approves (Philippians 1:9, Hebrews 5:12-14) > mature example leaders according to the standards of our Apostle Paul > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. And we become like these examples, ourselves, as we grow in how Jesus is, in us.

    So, we discover our others, as we grow in this. As long as I was looking down on others about how they were wrong . . . or I was seeing people that way . . . I could not appreciate the gentle and humble and all-loving people, because I did not have the sense of God's love to know who they are and appreciate them. But then I sought God to deeply correct me so I could tell the difference. And then I found out I was not so for real, even though I knew some people who are; I needed them to help me; this is not what we can do by ourselves.
     
  20. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Our parish has a basket in the Narthex. The tray is passed after the Liturgy has completed and weekly announcements are being made, not during the service.
     
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