What about those who haven’t heard?

[Rescued One]

John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 1
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Ephesians 5
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Acts 26
18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Isaiah 44
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

2 Corinthians 4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 3
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[ClementofA]

What does this passage say every living being knows and who said it? Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

What percentage of human beings does that apply to?

New International Version
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every human in this life?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for that. Could you also please list all the scriptures that you are referring to in this?

Sure.

That Christ descended into Hades (not hell, that's a poor translation), which is the place of the dead.

Ephesians 4
9 Now what does “he ascended” mean, if not that he first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

That He preached to the spirits there.

1 Peter 3:19-20
Thus, he also descended* and preached to the spirits in prison, to those who in the past had been disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In this [ark], a few (that is eight souls) were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:6
For this reason, the Good News was preached even to the dead,* so that they might in the flesh undergo the judgment that faces all human beings, but [then] live in the spirit as to God.*

They left off the verse that also says He led captivity captive ... in other words He freed those souls that had been captive in Hades.

Ephesians 4:8
Therefore, God* says, “When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave* gifts to men.”*

That's what the Scripture says, and that's what the early Christians took it to mean.

Now there has been some modern and very heretical idea that Christ went actually to hell to be punished - THAT did not happen. I just want to be clear that's not what I'm saying.

Those are the ones I was thinking of.

 

[Oldmantook]

Are you saying He saves them in the next life?

Those who do not believe in this life are condemned to the lake of fire. The question then is, is the lake of fire for the purpose of eternal punishment as evangelicals would like us to believe or is the lake of fire temporal or age-lasting for the purpose of chastisement so that in the end every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God (Phil 2:10-11). God will not fail to get his glory; what he wills, he will accomplish. The doctrine of apokatastasis has been around since the early church. In contrast modern belief in eternal punishment was promoted by Augustine and lasts to this day. Most Christians are unaware of this because they have not been exposed to it, much less studied it.
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

What percentage of human beings does that apply to?

New International Version
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every human in this life?

Do you see any exceptions in the words that He wrote? Is the word spoken not clear, why would you ask what percentage of human beings does that apply to, it say everyone coming into the world. Does it exempt any? what does the verse say? Read also Rom 1:19-20 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

 

[ClementofA]

what does the verse say? Read also Rom 1:19-20 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Does it apply to babies who die as babies?

When does the Lord enlighten & save them? After death, or before death?

New International Version
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every human in this life?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Those who do not believe in this life are condemned to the lake of fire. The question then is, is the lake of fire for the purpose of eternal punishment as evangelicals would like us to believe or is the lake of fire temporal or age-lasting for the purpose of chastisement so that in the end every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God (Phil 2:10-11). God will not fail to get his glory; what he wills, he will accomplish. The doctrine of apokatastasis has been around since the early church. In contrast modern belief in eternal punishment was promoted by Augustine and lasts to this day. Most Christians are unaware of this because they have not been exposed to it, much less studied it.
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

The words of God are very clear, Jesus Himself said it will be eternal torment, those who do not believe the word of God have given it their view point, the question all must answer is do you believe the scriptures or the interpretations of those who don't believe it and change the meanings to fit their view. The word of God last forever, heaven and earth will pass away but My word endure forever Matt 24:35 see also Ps 119:89

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Does it apply to babies who die as babies?

When does the Lord enlighten & save them? After death, or before death?

New International Version
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Does Christ Himself "enlighten" (Jn.1:9) every human in this life?

When David's baby boy died, he wash himself and freshened up and when ask said he would go to be where the baby was, I would take that to be when he went to be with the Lord. I would think before one comes to the age of knowing right from wrong they would receive His grace, that is my belief, though there is limited scripture on that subject. I am convinced that He always does what it best, because He is holy and never does wrong. I only want to state what scripture does state and not what I think it says. I do not hold to salvation after death, only judgment for the lost according to the last of Revelations and elsewhere when mentioned in the word of God, if it is silent I remain silent and follow His example. It is wrong to add to His finish revelations to me and He says no one is to add anything to it, doesn't He?

 

[Oldmantook]

The words of God are very clear, Jesus Himself said it will be eternal torment, those who do not believe the word of God have given it their view point, the question all must answer is do you believe the scriptures or the interpretations of those who don't believe it and change the meanings to fit their view. The word of God last forever, heaven and earth will pass away but My word endure forever Matt 24:35 see also Ps 119:89

The Word is clear to those who have studied it for themselves and who don't remain dependent on others to teach it to them. If you were somewhat familiar with the Greek, you would know that there is no such phrase such as "eternal torment" in the NT. Please show where in the NT does Jesus say that there will be eternal torment.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Mark Corbett. Jesus told us in Mark 22:35-40: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy hearts, with all thy souls, and with all thy minds. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 20 we are told: On these two verses hang all the Law and the Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. Jesus our saviour, died that we might live, let us now follow our Saviour, and love God and all around us. Love is very catching, and love will overcome all evil and wrong.
The Bible tells us: give up all selfish wishes and wants, Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Satan and all his followers, will run away from all love and compassion. Let us treat all we know and all we meet, let us treat them as we would love to be treated. God IS LOVE, and we want to be God`s loving men and women. Let us follow Jesus our Saviour, back to God, and be the sons and daughters which God wants us to be. We have to tell all our neighbours how loving and caring our Heavenly Father is, and how Jesus died for us. Jesus is the WAY. Try it Mark, God will Bless us greatly. I say this with love, and send greetings. From Emmy, your sister in Christ.
.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Mark Corbett. From some of your answers I can see that you have my reply. I just would love to send greetings. Love is very, very important, and we all have to change it with all we meet. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[ClementofA]

When David's baby boy died, he wash himself and freshened up and when ask said he would go to be where the baby was, I would take that to be when he went to be with the Lord. I would think before one comes to the age of knowing right from wrong they would receive His grace, that is my belief, though there is limited scripture on that subject. I am convinced that He always does what it best, because He is holy and never does wrong. I only want to state what scripture does state and not what I think it says. I do not hold to salvation after death, only judgment for the lost according to the last of Revelations and elsewhere when mentioned in the word of God, if it is silent I remain silent and follow His example. It is wrong to add to His finish revelations to me and He says no one is to add anything to it, doesn't He?

If there is no salvation after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then is it a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of "hell" (however it is defined) or punishment of any sort?

 

[Mark Corbett]

Drawing is not ineffectual. The word "draw" is from the Greek word helkó which literally means "drag." God will drag all men unto himself. This word picture is like the dragging of a fishing net. God is the ultimate fisher of men. This verse does not state WHEN God will helkó all men - only the fact that He will indeed do it. What God wills, he will indeed accomplish - if not in this lifetime - then in the next.

While we disagree on whether God will draw men to Himself after death who rejected Him and His gospel in life, I wonder if we still might agree on what I view as the main point of the OP (although it is not the most discussed point)? Specifically, would you agree that it is urgently important for us now, in our short lives here on earth, to make great efforts, sacrifice, take risks, face dangers, and suffer in order to bring the gospel to those who are currently unreached? Even if you think there is a type of "back up plan" (postmortem opportunities for salvation) do you feel the urgency of the Great Commission when you think about those who speak languages where the gospel is not being shared?

I ask this not as a rhetorical device. I am seeking common ground, which I hope exists. To me, the urgency of the Great Commission is a much more important matter than whether or not there is a back up plan. It is more important in terms of practically impacting how we live our lives now.

If you agree with this, it might be good for the readers of this conversation to hear you and others who lean towards or embrace some type of universalism to discuss the importance of evangelism and Great Commission ministry NOW, in our lives here. I'm not accusing you of not believing the Great Commission and evangelism are not urgent. I'm hoping to take a short break from legitimately debating postmortem salvation to emphasize something I hope we all have in common. This common ground point happens to be the main point of the OP, at least that is what I intended.

 

[Mark Corbett]

If there is no salvation after death, then how do those who died as babies or children get saved?

Do they at some point get to hear the gospel in the afterlife & make a choice for or against Christ?

Or is salvation forced upon them by irresistible grace?

If so, then is it a great blessing to have been aborted & thereby avoid any risk of "hell" (however it is defined) or punishment of any sort?

Would you take a look at my comment #113 and consider replying? I'm looking to take a brief "break" from debate about universalism and discuss what I hope is some encouraging common ground. Thanks!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Incidentally I will just add that the Orthodox Church does NOT teach universalism.

What we would say is that we HOPE for the salvation of any and all. We pray for the salvation of any and all. But such judgements are most firmly in the hands of God alone, and we must certainly do not presume salvation for all.


The only possible way that could be accomplished is that if the experience of God by the reprobate after death - which they will experience as fiery torment, could possibly be somehow pedagogical for them, or somehow allow them to change. But we have no such promise. Indeed, it is quite likely that their souls will be hardened to the point that they can never learn to accept the mercy and forgiveness and love of God, but may be eternally turning away from Him in agony. But we have no such sure knowledge, as it has not been revealed to us. Any such outcome either way is speculation.

 

[ClementofA]

While we disagree on whether God will draw men to Himself after death who rejected Him and His gospel in life, I wonder if we still might agree on what I view as the main point of the OP (although it is not the most discussed point)? Specifically, would you agree that it is urgently important for us now, in our short lives here on earth, to make great efforts, sacrifice, take risks, face dangers, and suffer in order to bring the gospel to those who are currently unreached? Even if you think there is a type of "back up plan" (postmortem opportunities for salvation) do you feel the urgency of the Great Commission when you think about those who speak languages where the gospel is not being shared?

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

It is "urgently important" for Christians to take up their crosses & follow Him. Whether or not this includes being an evangelist in the forests of Africa depends on (1) one being called to be an evangelist & (2) being specifically Spirit led to such places. We all can do something - pray, donate, assist - for worldwide evangelism. We all can be a witness - whether by life, word or deed - to those we are in contact with.

 

[fhansen]

I am remarking to this part that I show above: and I underlined it for reference only; You speak of those who strive to lead good lives and ignorance that one is not responsible for having, first off there is none that does good, none seek after God, Rom 3:9-12 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.10 As it is written:“There is none righteous, no, not one;11 There is none who understands;There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” Does none righteous and none that seek after God none that does good no, not one. What does none mean? How can anyone who has no faith please God and do good when in the flesh? God's word says directly, those that are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7. Also, Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please God, for they must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. This is done when hearing the word of God and the Holy Spirit is convicting them of their sin and need for a Savior, who alone, is Jesus Christ. John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

How can one disagree with what GOD says about mankind that is in His word specifically? Who is telling who what God requires? Is it Him or man? I mention again, read those verses in Rom 3:9-12 and tell me who is excluded in the passage until they come to faith in Jesus Christ. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light to my path Ps 119:105 the faithful saint will be one who lives according to the word of God. John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

The important point of Romans 3:9-12 is that everyone sins. Paul is drawing from Ps 14 & 53, which are specifically addressing the wicked BTW, and maybe Eccl 7 where Solomon makes the general point that all sin. Either way man is lost without God; man cannot be wholly righteous or holy or just-who he was simply meant to be-apart from God. Separated from God man tends towards corruption, evil, excess, disorder, not to mention basic unhappiness-and death; he has no life without God. So parts of Rom 3 is an exercise in hyperbole at most-to drive home a point: man needs God. “Apart from me you can do nothing” John 15:5 That need is addressed in Jer 31:34

“No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

so that God may then, as this intimate communion is established, do His work in us:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

None of this means that the image of God was completely wiped out in man due to the Fall. We see acts of authentic kindness, compassion, sacrifice, altruism, love, everyday-evidence of God’s handiwork. It may be less than all He wants for us, because He only wants the very best from us and for us, but that is true even for believers. In the end we’ll be judged on our love, expressed by how we treat our neighbor, the “least of these”, which is what Matt 25:31-46 is getting at as it sets standards for God’s judgment- and regardless of our professed belief BTW. “If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”, Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13.

In any case we’re not to take isolated passages of the bible and read them woodenly, as if they were meant to present some sort of precisely worded doctrine. The bible was not intended as a catechism or creed. Understanding is called for, not merely rote quoting.

 

[Oldmantook]

While we disagree on whether God will draw men to Himself after death who rejected Him and His gospel in life, I wonder if we still might agree on what I view as the main point of the OP (although it is not the most discussed point)? Specifically, would you agree that it is urgently important for us now, in our short lives here on earth, to make great efforts, sacrifice, take risks, face dangers, and suffer in order to bring the gospel to those who are currently unreached? Even if you think there is a type of "back up plan" (postmortem opportunities for salvation) do you feel the urgency of the Great Commission when you think about those who speak languages where the gospel is not being shared?

I ask this not as a rhetorical device. I am seeking common ground, which I hope exists. To me, the urgency of the Great Commission is a much more important matter than whether or not there is a back up plan. It is more important in terms of practically impacting how we live our lives now.

If you agree with this, it might be good for the readers of this conversation to hear you and others who lean towards or embrace some type of universalism to discuss the importance of evangelism and Great Commission ministry NOW, in our lives here. I'm not accusing you of not believing the Great Commission and evangelism are not urgent. I'm hoping to take a short break from legitimately debating postmortem salvation to emphasize something I hope we all have in common. This common ground point happens to be the main point of the OP, at least that is what I intended.

Indeed; agree with you Mark. The common ground is no matter what we believe, whether it be Universalism, Annihilationism, or eternal punishment - those who do not believe/follow Jesus in this life - end up in the Lake of Fire. Whether one's stay in the LOF is temporary or lasts forever is subject to debate but I don't think any sensible person would want to spend even one second there. Therefore the spreading of the gospel is priority #1. The other thing I would add is the goal is to make disciples; not just converts. Converts can fall away from the faith but if properly taught and discipled, they have a better chance of fighting the good fight and finishing the race.

 

[Mark Corbett]

It is "urgently important" for Christians to take up their crosses & follow Him. Whether or not this includes being an evangelist in the forests of Africa depends on (1) one being called to be an evangelist & (2) being specifically Spirit led to such places. We all can do something - pray, donate, assist - for worldwide evangelism. We all can be a witness - whether by life, word or deed - to those we are in contact with.

Amen, I agree completely!

 

[Mark Corbett]

Indeed; agree with you Mark. The common ground is no matter what we believe, whether it be Universalism, Annihilationism, or eternal punishment - those who do not believe/follow Jesus in this life - end up in the Lake of Fire. Whether one's stay in the LOF is temporary or lasts forever is subject to debate but I don't think any sensible person would want to spend even one second there.

Amen! Yes, I agree with this.

Therefore the spreading of the gospel is priority #1. The other thing I would add is the goal is to make disciples; not just converts. Converts can fall away from the faith but if properly taught and discipled, they have a better chance of fighting the good fight and finishing the race.

Yes! Thanks for emphasizing that we are called to make disciples, not just converts. And making disciples includes "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" (Jesus, Matthew 28:20). This is a life long process. I'm still "learning to obey", and yet God graciously uses me to teach others at the same time.

This also highlights the need for some (those called and gifted) to go long term and learn languages of the unreached, because making disciples is a long term process which includes sharing about a lot of life issues. But all of us are called to do our part, according to each one's gifts and abilities, to make disciples.