What about those who haven’t heard?

[iwbswiaihl2]

that if you confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9-10 Now how does one gets saved according to words from God? Only how He states it.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

that if you confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9-10 Now how does one gets saved according to words from God? Only how He states it.

Does speaking from the heart count for those who are mutes?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

When you pray to the Lord or think thoughts do you think God hears you even though you make no sound? that will give you my answer. Thanks

 

[Mark Corbett]

If a person is saved, they're saved by Jesus, regardless of whether they've heard His name or not.

How do you reconcile the idea that they can be saved without hearing the Name of Jesus with Paul's rhetorical question in Romans 10?

NIV Romans 10:14b And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ​

 

[JacksBratt]

Does telling Christians: “You are personally responsible for teaching the lost and if any are lost it is your fault.” help?

I don't believe that telling people this would help.

Really, I believe that it is not biblical.

It is not my or your responsibility for the salvation of other souls. It is their own personal responsibility.


We are commanded to shine and be the salt of the earth... some through soap box preaching, some through missionary work, some through active ministry and some....just by being themselves and letting the glory, kindness and love of Christ shine in their life, to such an extent that they stand out as being different in a positive way.

We are to be in this world but not of this world. We are supposed to live a life that, when others find out we are Christian, is should not be met with "oh really?, they are Christian?" Rather, it should be "Oh, really... that makes sense. It sure shows. I could of guessed".

I will never be the one who brings a soul to Christ. I am only to plant the seed and water it. We can do this in many many ways...Christ grows the seed and brings His lamb to the fold.

 

[JacksBratt]

When you pray to the Lord or think thoughts do you think God hears you even though you make no sound? that will give you my answer. Thanks

I don't know who this was directed to. I just wanted to say that a lot of the times I pray, I make no audible sound. The majority of my prayers would be this way.... and.... God hears me loud and clear.

 

[JacksBratt]

How do you reconcile the idea that they can be saved without hearing the Name of Jesus with Paul's rhetorical question in Romans 10?

NIV Romans 10:14b And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? ​

You cannot believe in the one whom they have not heard. That is a fact. So........how does God, then, determine if they should have salvation? It is by the evidence that is presented to all who live a life on this earth. Everyone will, in some way shape or form, accept or reject the existence of and power of and worthiness of our creator, due to things in their life that will be presented to them and they will be, in God's presence.... with out excuse for how they reacted. lived and the attitude of their heart.

 

[Mark Corbett]

.....how does God, then, determine if they should have salvation? It is by the evidence that is presented to all who live a life on this earth. Everyone will, in some way shape or form, accept or reject the existence of and power of and worthiness of our creator, due to things in their life that will be presented to them and they will be, in God's presence.... with out excuse for how they reacted. lived and the attitude of their heart.

It seems to me that a major truth taught in Romans (and other parts of the Bible) is that based on "how they reacted, lived, and the attitude of their heart" no one deserves the gift of eternal life:

NIV Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
​

So, I'm not denying that people will be judged for how they lived. But based on how they lived, without God's grace that comes only by faith in Christ, all will be condemned.

 

[Oldmantook]

Well, since you quoted I'll reply. I'm not interested in an argument.

But it seems that just because we don't like what a passage says, and want to believe it says something else, isn't much of an argument (your first link).

The early Christians - the ones who recognized the documents accepted as Scripture as being true and had a part in their canonization - took them to mean what they say.

That Christ descended into Hades (not hell, that's a poor translation), which is the place of the dead. That He preached to the spirits there. They left off the verse that also says He led captivity captive ... in other words He freed those souls that had been captive in Hades.

That's what the Scripture says, and that's what the early Christians took it to mean.

Now there has been some modern and very heretical idea that Christ went actually to hell to be punished - THAT did not happen. I just want to be clear that's not what I'm saying.

Indeed; it is quite interesting to me that modern scholars such as Piper can easily dismiss out of hand what the early church believed as the Apostle's Creed expressed the very foundation of what they believed. Scholars will emphasize that any questions regarding our doctrines should be informed by what the early church taught and believed. Yet Piper does not seem to take his own advice when it comes to the Apostle's Creed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It seems to me that a major truth taught in Romans (and other parts of the Bible) is that based on "how they reacted, lived, and the attitude of their heart" no one deserves the gift of eternal life:

NIV Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
​

So, I'm not denying that people will be judged for how they lived. But based on how they lived, without God's grace that comes only by faith in Christ, all will be condemned.

That would be true if perfectly keeping the law was necessary or would "purchase" salvation. Salvation has never been available through works.

But the way we live our lives and the way we incline our hearts makes us either able or unwilling to receive God's grace.

It's not the simple legal transaction the west tends to reduce salvation to. It's about being transformed, and a heart that inclines to God and to love, rather than to selfish satisfaction of personal pleasures.

Folks are quoting "confess and be saved" but Scripture can't be pitted against Scripture. It is ALL true - including the part that says "not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' will be saved" ... and that includes people who prophesied and cast out demons in His name. For it is not the hearers of the word who are justified, but the DOERS.

It ALL has to fit. We can't take one Scripture in isolation against all the others.

We all say God judges the heart. It is true.




Christ is available to those who act in accordance with His law of Love who might not yet know His name, if God chooses, just as Christ has said that simply calling Him Lord won't be enough if we aren't really changed to be like Him.

God's grace is active throughout all creation, and can act as He chooses. And His desire is to heal people from sin, draw them to Him, and save them. Whatever means He does that (and it is ALL through Christ - it is through Christ that the Holy Spirit and the grace of God became active in all creation) ... but however God chooses to work to accomplish this, He can do.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Indeed; it is quite interesting to me that modern scholars such as Piper can easily dismiss out of hand what the early church believed as the Apostle's Creed expressed the very foundation of what they believed. Scholars will emphasize that any questions regarding our doctrines should be informed by what the early church taught and believed. Yet Piper does not seem to take his own advice when it comes to the Apostle's Creed.

I can't comment on Piper, but I did read the Grudem article. It made me feel sad. Basically taking apart various truths and errors, lining them up, and trying to arrive at truth that way?

If we accept that the Apostles received the deposit of faith from the Holy Spirit, go back to what they teach, and identify what the early Church identified as error, it all becomes very clear.

I really do have compassion on folks who think they have no choice but to work backwards through history, but mistakes will inevitably be made, and there is no standard for them to apply to. Thankfully I believe God has compassion too, and understands.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Indeed; it is quite interesting to me that modern scholars such as Piper can easily dismiss out of hand what the early church believed as the Apostle's Creed expressed the very foundation of what they believed. Scholars will emphasize that any questions regarding our doctrines should be informed by what the early church taught and believed. Yet Piper does not seem to take his own advice when it comes to the Apostle's Creed.

I certainly don't agree with everything Piper says, but overall I respect him and have been helped and blessed by his teaching ministry many times.

With respect to the issue of Jesus descending into Hell and the Apostles Creed, there are two quick points I would like to make:

1. Grudem has carefully documented evidence that the Apostle's Creed might not have originally contained the words indicating that Christ descended into Hell.
2. Even if it did, the Apostel's Creed is not part of the Word of God and could have had one phrase that was in error.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not hell. The place of the dead.

 

[Oldmantook]

So, I'm not denying that people will be judged for how they lived. But based on how they lived, without God's grace that comes only by faith in Christ, all will be condemned.

On one hand it is certainly true that God's grace only comes by faith in Christ. However the second clause in your sentence (all will be condemned) is not necessarily true. John 12:32 states: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." We know that Jesus met the first condition as he was in fact resurrected. That condition having been met, the conclusion then is that he will draw ALL men to himself. Jesus imposed no qualifications in this verse as all means all.

 

[Serving Zion]

Not hell. The place of the dead.

It would help if you could explain your view a bit more thoroughly .. in saying this, how is it to say more than He merely descended to earth itself? (eg: 1 John 3:14, Psalms 23:4).

 

[Serving Zion]

(removed duplicate post - network glitch)

 

[Oldmantook]

I certainly don't agree with everything Piper says, but overall I respect him and have been helped and blessed by his teaching ministry many times.

With respect to the issue of Jesus descending into Hell and the Apostles Creed, there are two quick points I would like to make:

1. Grudem has carefully documented evidence that the Apostle's Creed might not have originally contained the words indicating that Christ descended into Hell.
2. Even if it did, the Apostel's Creed is not part of the Word of God and could have had one phrase that was in error.

Using your same argument, our doctrines are not part of the Word of God either so what we believe could also be in error.
Even if one goes along with Grudem's claim, I'm sure you agree that it still boils down to what Scripture states. Scriptures states that Jesus didn't just remain entombed and immobilized between his death and resurrection. He descended into the lower regions of the earth (Eph 4:9) and spent 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth (Matt 12:40).

 

[~Anastasia~]

It would help if you could explain your view a bit more thoroughly .. in saying this, how is it to say more than He merely descended to earth itself? (eg: 1 John 3:14, Psalms 23:4).

Sorry, I did earlier.

Here's part of it ...

.

The early Christians - the ones who recognized the documents accepted as Scripture as being true and had a part in their canonization - took them to mean what they say.

That Christ descended into Hades (not hell, that's a poor translation), which is the place of the dead. That He preached to the spirits there. They left off the verse that also says He led captivity captive ... in other words He freed those souls that had been captive in Hades.

That's what the Scripture says, and that's what the early Christians took it to mean.

Now there has been some modern and very heretical idea that Christ went actually to hell to be punished - THAT did not happen. I just want to be clear that's not what I'm saying.

 

[Dirk1540]

I think this questions God's fairness. If God is a perfect judge, wouldn't he judge people fairly? Would someone who has never heard of Jesus be responsible for responding to a message they haven't heard? If that is unfair, then God wouldn't do it.

So what about people who haven't heard? I would assume that God would judge fairly. If there were a verdict that wasn't fair, God wouldn't render it. If God judges someone and renders a verdict that eternally separates that someone from him, then it would only be because it was the deserved verdict.

This may not fully satisfy the question though - we're not privy to God's knowledge and so do have the required information to know how to judge "someone who hasn't heard." We can take comfort in knowing that God is Just and wouldn't judge someone unfairly. So if someone thinks that someone else is "going to hell" and it's believed that's an unfair assessment of their eternal destiny, then we can know that God wouldn't do it.

What I think we can know is that, if any of us are to be judged on our own merit, then we're in trouble. If we're to believe Paul, then:

Rom 3:10....“There is no one righteous, not even one,....3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

But people aren't unrighteous because they haven't heard and people don't fall short because they haven't heard a message. No, we would be unrighteous and fall short because of who we are and what we do. Hearing the message leads to salvation, but not-hearing doesn't cause damnation.

This opens doors of philosophical thought for me though. Meaning what does it truly mean to 'Reject Jesus' or 'Except Jesus'?? As an extreme example, person 'A' has never heard, as they lay on the ground dying of a gunshot wound. Person 'B' starts telling them about Jesus...person 'A' has the reaction of "What is this guy talking about??" then he dies. Did person 'B' just condemn person 'A' because now he officially heard?

That example sounds ridiculous of course. But I know from personal experience in my past that it's not that different from a person who has heard 3 times, or 5 times, or even 10 times, and SINCERELY believes that it is a fictional story of myth. So I have a tough time philosophically separating those who haven't heard and those who sincerely intellectually object.

Can you intellectually object, but in your heart except Jesus? Can you 'Medically Die' after a life full of angry Jesus misinformation, because you grew up next to brilliant militant atheists your whole life, and then before you 'Officially Die' experience intense Jesus revelations that lead you to accept him? And following that line of thought, we know from both Biblical verses and from scientifically proven time relativity, that 5 (Earth) seconds with Jesus on your death bed can be like a year!

 

[Rescued One]

Of course I don't know why your siblings and mother don't believe. But I do pray that God will work powerfully to bring them to Christ.

I'm sorry. I should have explained that people can be told the truth, yet hate it or not understand it or not care. I've been very kind to my mother, but she never believed in Jesus as anyone other than a teacher. I've explained the gospel to her several times. She doesn't argue; she just doesn't believe. My brothers believe that intelligent people don't believe "fairy tales." Two of them have PhDs. So it was kind of a rhetorical question.