When you look at the words believe and baptized you will see that they are aorist, Particples and the main verb in this sentence is "shall be saved".
"Aorist" exists outside of time---that is, it does not indicate past present or future---
it just exists. Yet the translations say, "He who
has believed and
has been baptized shall be saved." Which is identical to, "he who has believed and has been baptized, is saved"---it is simply a statment of fact. This verb construction does not present salvation as "conditional upon either belief or baptism"---it is simply presenting their situation. They believed, they were baptized, they were saved. It us just as important to read the next verse. You understand
water baptism as being PART of
SALVATION; but Mark just asserted that "believers and baptized are saved"---if Mark had your understanding,
there is no way he would have omitted water baptism from the DISQUALIFICATION: He who DOES NOT BELIEVE is CONDEMNED. Mark states that
only DISBELIEF condemns; to say that it is "disbelief AND/
OR unbaptism", is to REWRITE MARK'S WORDS!!!
Here let me show you another verse that uses the phrase "will be saved" in the same future tense. John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. Using your arguement a person is saved before he enters by Jesus. I think you can even see the clarity here that one must enter by Jesus to be saved.
Oops---you blew your argument. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (subsequently). "He who enters will be saved" (subsequently, not precedingly)...
Then in verse 15 you see that Peter had just began to speak these words when the HS fell on them. He didn't get to tell them all the words they needed to hear yet.
You're nailing Peter to a point
he didn't make. You think Peter only got out a few words, NOT EVEN THE BASICS OF THE GOSPEL---tell me, Cougan,
do you actually believe the Holy Spirit filled them BEFORE THEY BELIEVED?!?!
Do you really think the Holy Spirit ever indwells unbelievers?
Let's look at what Peter
REALLY said:
"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?" Acts10:47
"If God gave the same gift as He gave to us also after believing, in the Lord Jesus Christ..." Acts11:17
Do you see your error? You assumed they
had not heard the Gospel, and had not really believed (how could they believe before they heard?)---but Peter, VERY CLEARLY said that they
believed, and AFTER BELIEVING had received the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles had!!! I think Peter has overturned your argument, and endorsed what I was saying---
it is BELIEF that saves us, GRACE through FAITH,
PERIOD; no water. Water is the CONSEQUENCE of salvation. The
only disqualification, as Mark ALSO endorsed,
is UNBELIEF.
They believed, they received the Holy Spirit, they were saved;
just as the other apostles & brethren had;
they were THEN baptized. No "special dispensation", no "separate clause", no "one-time-allowance-because-of-the-gospel's-newness (or whaddever)---
they were saved by believing, JUST AS THE APOSTLES HAD BEEN!!!
In fact why don't you show me one verse anywhere that says someone is saved by being baptized in the HS.
I can't. But I can show you where they are saved
by BELIEVING, which CAUSES them to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Can you show me ANYWHERE that the Spirit indwells one
before he believes?
John3:5
undeniably refers to "water=flesh", not
water baptism. This is one (of many) examples of "double narrative", "twice-told-tale".
Truly, unless one is born of
water, and the
Spirit...
That ...born of
flesh is flesh, that born of
Spirit is spirit.
In this verse, WATER, ("Hudor", water-as-the-fundamental-element),
means "FLESH".
1Cor12:13 is "baptism into one body"---identical to "one Lord, one faith, one baptism". Tell me, Cougan---does 1Cor12:13, say "baptized into water", or "baptized into the body"? Same with Gal3:27.
Tell me something---John-the-baptist made the distinction between
WATER, and
SPIRIT and
FIRE (in Matt3). You are forced to admit that "baptism-of-fire-for-sinners" (which is HELL) has NOTHING to do with water-baptism, undeniably "baptism with the Spirit
ALSO has nothing to do with water-baptism"; why is it that you cannot simply understand John's words? John baptized with water, Jesus baptized with the Spirit. Which is salvation. (The
water-baptism then FOLLOWED the spirit-baptism...)
Why can't you understand John-the-baptist's words? Why can't you accept that
not everywhere the word, "BAPTISM", appears, does it mean "WATER"?
I submit that we are saved,
in the exact same way as the Apostles, which is the exact same way as those in Acts 10:44-48. We believe, which is to
receive Christ, we are baptized into His death and raised new creations---BORN AGAIN. We are
then water-baptized...