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What about Baptism?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by cougan, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    FluviusNeckar, you certainly have a way of twisting things around!:D
    The CoC preachers are doing the condemning, I'm only quoting their words!:D
    If you have a problem with what the CoC preaches, then take it up with the CoC preachers, please!:p
     
  2. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Acts talks about there being deaconesses.

    Psalm 150 specifically mentions using instruments to worship the LORD. Where do you get that musical instruments in the church is wrong? (BTW, the silence argument falls, because nowhere in the BIble do we read that "English is okay to use in a Church service," yet we use English.)

    So this is somehow unscriptural? I read that the apostles broke bread, but come on! (And let's not use John 6:53-54 as evidence that those who never take the Lord's Supper are never saved, shall we? Can we dispense of that?)

    Our refutations have been ignored.

    Go back and look again. They were, indeed, refuted.

     
     
  3. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    If I have mis-stated your position I apologize and hope you will clarify what exactly I have "twisted."
     
  4. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    From POST 302---
    From Matt3:11ff, "I baptize you with water; but He who comes after me baptizes with the HOLY SPIRIT, and with FIRE"---the explanation is correlated to GRAIN/CHAFF; thus FIRE is undeniably HELL, and conversely baptism of the Holy Spirit is SALVATION.

    "Holy Spirit and Hell".
    "Salvation and condemnation".

    The "baptism of the Holy Spirit is thus not something different from salvation, but part of the ESSENCE of salvation".

    This reflected in Hebrews, where "METOCHOS" describes the saved perspective:
    1. Partnership in a heavenly calling (3:1)
    2. Partnership in Christ (3:14)
    3. Partnership in the Holy Spirit (6:4)

    notice that ALL THREE PARTNERSHIPS EACH reflect SALVATION...

    You admit that "partnership in the Holy Spirit" is NOT involving waterbaptism; yet you stubbornly persist that "partnership in Christ" DOES INVOLVE WATERBAPTISM...

    Romans 6 uses "BURIED", and "IMMERSED", and "UNITED", interchangeably---there is NOTHING in the passage that demands connection to waterbaptism. The connection to WATERBAPTISM is external to the passage. Scripture equates "partnership in a heavenly calling", with "fellowship/partnership with the Holy Spirit", and with "fellowship/partnership with Christ"---if ONE does not require waterbaptism, and if TWO do not require waterbaptism, then there is NO REASON to assert that the third requires waterbaptism---they are all three the same. You have NOT proven that Roman6 asserts waterbaptism.
     
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    FROM POST 313:
    From Matt3:11, Johnthebaptist asserts only TWO OPTIONS---baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is THE BAPTISM JESUS IS TO COME WITH, and FIRE/HELL for SINNERS; Thus, "Holy-Spirit-Baptism", and "HELL". Salvation, and reprobation.
    WATERBAPTISM is, as Peter writes, "an appeal to God for a clear conscience"---symbolic of the washing away of the old man/woman; but as you say, the water is not magic, the REAL washing is through BELIEF, through the BLOOD of their RECEIVED SAVIOR...
    I don't know why the "laying-on-of-hands" was required---but it is clear, the SPIRIT is received by BELIEVING. Cornelius family/friends BELIEVED, and RECEIVED THE SPIRIT (Acts11:17)---they were SAVED BEFORE BEING DIPPED.

    All the other accounts reflected waterbaptism because there was NO REASON NOT TO.
    I think Jesus answered this, in Jn15: "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friends. And YOU are My friends, if you do what I command you".

    Cause-and-effect, Cougan---Jesus said in Matt7, "good trees produce good fruit, bad trees bad fruit; you will know them by their fruit." A saved heart will DO what Jesus commands. Good deeds, waterbaptism. Cause and effect---not effect and cause.
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    FROM POST 314:
    Yes it does. You see, there are TWO WAYS to receive Christ---truly, and untruly. James demonstrates the UNTRUE reception, the "faith" that PRODUCES no good works---that faith is DEAD, USELESS, UNSAVED---it is not really faith at all. TRUE faith DOES God's will, IS waterbaptized---if possible. But one who can NOT be dipped, but still has the saved-heart-that-WOULD-be-dipped if he COULD, IS SAVED
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    FROM POST 337:
    In the time of Martin Luther, the church NEEDED to be divided---RIGHTLY divided as it were.[/b] Someone said, "denominations exist to keep each other honest.

    Do you believe there are some from the Church of Christ who will go to Heaven? I believe that.

    Do you believe there are some from Church of Christ who will NOT go to Heaven? I believe that.

    Do you believe there are some from Catholic, and Methodist, and Baptist, and Assembly of God, and Lutheran, and Greek Orthodox, and Nazarene, and Charismatic, and Non-Denomination, etc---some from EACH will go to Heaven? I believe that.

    Do you believe there are some from Catholic, and Methodist, and Baptist, and Assembly of God, and Lutheran, and Greek Orthodox, and Nazarene, and Charismatic, and Non-Denomination, etc---some from EACH will NOT go to Heaven? I believe that.
    Me too---and we have shown you that SALVATION is "patnership with Heavenly-Calling, partnership with Holy Spirit, partnership with Christ---and nothing in Scripture assigns ANY OF THESE to waterbaptism. That CONNECTION is EXTERNAL to Scripture.

    Romans 6 equates "IMMERSED" with "BURIED" with "UNITED"---exactly repeating Gal2:20---and each and EVERY ONE of those identical terms is assigned to BELIEF, not waterbaptism.

    Cornelius' family and friends might be perhaps the "STRAW the BREAKS THE CAMEL'S BACK". They BELIEVED, they RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT; your contention that "receiving the Holy Spirit can occor OUTSIDE of salvation", has been refuted. Peter ASSERTED that they believed (11:17), chapter 10 records ALL THE WORDS THAT THEY HEARD---they heard, more than enough, they had KNOWN Jesus and had HEARD Him, they BELIEVED, they were SAVED, they received the HOLY SPIRIT...

    ...and they were waterbaptized later...
     
  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Peter writes, "...the Holy Spirit fell on them JUST AS HE DID UPON US AT THE BEGINNING"; "God therefore gave them the SAME GIFT as He gave to us ALSO AFTER BELIEVING in the Lord Jesus Christ"---there is NO connection between "waterbaptism" and "salvation".

    The ONLY connection here to salvation, is BELIEF.

    Thus in Mark16:16, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned"---only disbelief disqualifies---the inclusion of "waterbaptism" here (and that seems to be what is here), only states a fact---not a condition.
     
  9. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    Not quite. Not quite qualifies as a lie whether intentional or not. They were baptized immediately not later. Later sounds like Constantine who denied Christ until just before he died at which point he was baptized so he could become a Christian FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE. That was his understanding of the issue.

    Paul believed and he was told to arise and wash away his sins.

    By the way the Church has NEVER needed to be divided. The sectarian Christianity practiced in the US, however, more closely resembles the ideal than the state churches and hierarchies of Europe. The Economist once noted that despite the division of American churches into independent locally autonomous churches, Christianity in the US has maintained a vibrancy born of competition while Christianity in Europe has taken on a museum-like pall.
     
  10. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Now lets examine the Philipian jailer account.

    Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself.

    28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."

    29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.

    30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

    31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Now this is where the faith only people stop. They will say see all you have to do is belive to be saved. We know from other scriptures that belief by itself  will not save you and what we have recoreded here is not mere belife alone. You would have to assert that one could be saved without repenting or confessing as well. The word belive here is being used in a manner that represents the whole. If you want to take this verse to the extreme you could just as easily say that a person just has to believe on Jesus and his or her entire family would be saved. That is their family members could be saved by one person beliving in God. Thats why we must not stop here we must continue on reading to see what was involved in this beliving on the lord Jesus Christ.

    32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.

    Now we see the rest of the story. Here they teach them and speak the words that they need to know to be saved. See also Acts 11:14. So they tell them the good news.

    33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed <I>their </I>stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

    Now picture it in the middle of the night and his family has heard the good news and have received it just like those in acts 2:41 and they were IMMEDIATELY water baptized. If water baptism is not important to salvation why did they get water baptized in the middle of the night after hearing the words they needed to be saved by? Why is everyone is such a hurry in all the accounts to be water baptized if water baptism is not part of salvation?

    34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

    First off notice that they rejoiced after they were water baptized. 2nd notice it says "having belived in God". Again, this water baptism that he and his family submitted to was part of this believing in God. Once again it can be clearly seen that they heard the word and received and just like all the others that received the good news they were water baptized having their sins washed away.

    Scott I have answered and dealt with every single arguement you have made and the others have made. If I have missed something I apologize becaue I have tried to get to everything. However, my arguements contrary to your statement have not been dealt with. I am refering to my latest ones and not some of the ones that you have tried to refute. I still want to keep the thread focused on the baptism issue even though you have asked me about 3 new subjects. However I just uploaded a some articles for you to read regarding these 3 subjects.

    1. Lords Supper (I wrote this one) http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/lords%20supper.htm

    2.Musical Instruments (I wrote this one as well and its short)http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/ccmusic.htm

    3. Womens Role in the Church. (Pretty long article but well worth the read, I did not write this one)http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/womenrole.htm

    and also http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/womensRole.htm

    If you want to discuss these topics further please let me know and we will start a new thread for them instead of doing it in here.

    &nbsp;
     
  11. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Peter said, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT JUST AS WE DID?"

    They had partnership in the Holy Spirit, partnership in CHRIST, partnership in the heavenly calling. If waterbaptism was PART OF SALVATION, then they WOULD not, they COULD not have spoken with tongues and exalted God.
    "Ananias dearted and entered the house, and after laying hands on him said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who apeared to you on the road, ...has sent me that you may regain your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit'. And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized; and took food and was strengthened." Is there anything here that proposes, that Saul/Paul, was waterbaptized BEFORE salvation/believing"? No.

    Acts22:16: "Arise and be baptized, AND wash away your sins, calling on His name.". KAI, people, AND. Two events

    1. Be baptized
    2. Wash away your sins, calling on His name.

    Be baptized, AND wash away your sins.

    It is the NAME of JESUS that washes away sins, not WATER.

    I just invested a vast amount of time in posts---was it worthwhile? Will our esteemed "debating partners" consider those posts, or will those posts be ignored?
     
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Ben I have not one time to my knowledge ignored or failed to respond to one of your arguements even when you bring up the sameones over and over and over again which I rufute and rufute and refute again. I appluade you for at least attempting to answer some of my arguements I made. I must say you answer were very weak and sometimes you did'nt really even give an answer you just kind threw some words down. I will point all this out in due time. First I want to keep painting the picture I have started useing the whole bible showing clear passages that teach clearly what I have been proclaiming all along. Then I will tie them all together and use the bible itself to clearly and logicly expose your misunderstanding of the scriptures.

    Now I want to show another reason why people are not saved by faith alone but that one must be baptized.

    After the death of Stephen, a persecution arose against the church, and the disciples were scattered widely. Some of them went to Antioch, in Syria, “preaching the Lord Jesus” (Acts 11:20). Luke informs us that “the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number that believed turned unto the Lord”

    21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.
    22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
    23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
    24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.


    Of special interest here are the terms “believed” and “turned.” “Turned unto the Lord” later becomes the equivalent of “added unto the Lord”&nbsp;Certainly one is not saved until he is “added” to the Lord (Acts 2:47).

    The word “turned”&nbsp;is the leading verb of the sentence. “Believed” is a participle in the aorist tense. In New Testament Greek, there is a rule which suggests that an aorist participle reflects action that transpires <B>prior</B> to that of the leading verb (J.G. Machen, <B>New Testament Greek for Beginners,</B> pp. 116-7). The passage might thus be paraphrased in this fashion: “...a great number, having already believed, turned to the Lord....” Thus, clearly, “turning” to the Lord, or being “added” to the Lord, does not occur at the moment one believes. Rather, “turning” occurs subsequent to “believing.” So clearly one does not turn to the lord simply by believing.

    Second, lets look at the following verse.

    Acts 26:20 "but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and <I>then </I>to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

    Again, the word of God makes it clear that turning to God is somthing in addition to merely repenting. Both faith and repentence are preliminary to turning to the lord. Just as a side note on the last part of this verse shows that a penitent life is characterized by doing (present tense- continueously doing) works. The idea that a person can repent, yet continue in his wrongful conduct, is absoultly false.

    When does one actually turn to God?

    We can find the answer by comparing Acts 2:38 with Acts 3:19.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

    Acts 2:38&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Acts 3:19
    Repent&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Repent
    Be Baptized&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Turn Again
    Remission of Sins&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sins Blotted Out
    Gift of the Holy Spirit&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Seasons of refreshing

    Now we see clearly that Peter was preaching the&nbsp;same message here in acts 3:19 as in acts 2:38. He tells them to repent, which involves turning from your iniquities and to turn again, so their sins may be blotted out. The word "turn" (epistrepho , an active verb which corresponds&nbsp; to be baptized in acts 2:38) indicates there is something to be done after repentance.&nbsp; There is an overt act following repentance -- immersion -- with which all who choose to complete their obedience unto Christ comply. The baptism here in acts 2:38 is water baptism and not HS baptism so you can't say this is HS baptism here.

    Clearly, one does not enter the state of salvation until he has obeyed the Lord's command to be immeresed. The above passages demostrate that one does not turn to the Lord upon the basis of faith alone, or even penitent faith, instead his obedience must be completed in yielding to the command to be baptized. (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:4, Gal 3:27, Acts 22:16, 1Cor 12:13, Mk 16:16...etc)

    Next in this series I will deal with another favorite passage the faith only people like to use where Paul states that God did not send him to baptize in 1Cor 1.

    Don't worry Ben&nbsp; I still have'nt forgotton all the time you spent posting your responses which I have already answered in the past but I will do it again. And you should start seeing a pattern as I have been working on these different accounts using the whole bible and not focusing in on the same few verse that you keep holding on to for dear life. My hope is to show you from the rest of this passages I have been talking about that clearly my view is taught by the bible and all these passages shed light on your few passages that you misunderstand. I am getting very close to wrapping up so just hang on.


    &nbsp;
     
  13. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    1 CORINTHIANS 1:12-17
    &nbsp;This passage proves beyond doubt that baptism is necessary in order to be saved. It has often been overlooked, however, as a key to proving its necessity.
    &nbsp;In verse 13 Paul set down an undeniable truth. He mentions two things that are necessary to belong to Paul, Cephas, Apollos, or Christ. (1) That person must have been crucified for you; (2) you must have been baptized in the name of that person.
    &nbsp;Paul said, "Was Paul crucified for you?" In other words, was Paul crucified so you could be forgiven of your sins? Secondly, "Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" "In the name of" in this passage means that a person baptized in someone's name assigns them to that person. Thus, if any were baptized in the name of Paul they were assigned the name of Paul. They would become "of Paul." This is where the proof resides. In order to be assigned to Christ, a person must be baptized "in the name of" Christ. Gal. 3:27 makes it clear that "As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." If a person belongs to Christ, Christ was crucified for him, and he must also have been baptized into Him.
    &nbsp;Notice further that Paul was thankful that he didn't baptize many people. The reason was because he feared that some may say they had been baptized in his own name. Again, this overwhelmingly affirms that one must be baptized in the name of Christ to be "of Christ!"
    &nbsp;Some will argue that Paul was saying that baptism wasn't important when he said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (V17). This simply is not true. Again, Paul was thankful he did not baptize many because of his fear that some would say they were "of" him.
    &nbsp;Paul would have been disregarding Christs' clear command to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them ...." (Mat. 28:19). Paul was either disregarding this explicit instruction given by Jesus, or he must have not meant that baptism was not important. Further, if "Christ sent me not to baptize" means that Paul was forbidden to baptize, then he disobeyed Jesus, because he says that he did baptize Crispus and Gaius.
    &nbsp;The word "sent" (Greek, APESTALEV) involves the meaning of "made me an apostle." Jesus made Paul an apostle primarily to preach. Anyone can baptize, but only a select few had the privilege to be an apostle of Christ.
    &nbsp;It would be impossible for Paul to mean that baptism was not important. He was baptized himself (Ac. 22:16). He emphasized that baptism was a burial; (Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:12); he said that it cloths a person with Christ (Gal. 3:27); and that it put's a person into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
    &nbsp;Some try to put the gospel at opposite ends with baptism. In other words, some say that baptism is not a part of the gospel of Christ. Jesus said, however, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mk. 16:16). Clearly Jesus said that baptism is a part of the gospel. If baptism is not a part of the gospel then Peter, John, Paul, and Phillip were all preaching something other than what Jesus commanded them to preach. Phillip "preached unto him Jesus" (Ac. 8:35) yet the Eunuch somehow learned that he needed to be baptized. Peter cried, "Repent and be baptized..." in response to the Jews question, "What shall we do?" (Ac. 2:37-38). Clearly baptism is a part of the gospel of Christ. And this being so, those who don't obey the gospel will have vengeance taken upon them at Christs' second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

    If you would like read an article on this section of scripture here you go. http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/gospelBaptismQuestion.htm
     
  14. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
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    I'll back an infinitely merciful, unknowable, God against all the quotes in the world, personally.
     
  15. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Hey, cougan. I'm waiting for you to visit the musical instruments thread I started.

    SEC
     
  16. That's right, and all of this was planned before the foundation of the world.&nbsp; How are you these days Cougan?
     
  17. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    We are not justified&nbsp;by faith alone.&nbsp; James 2

    &nbsp;

    Accept it or toss it from the Bible.&nbsp; Luther said we should toss the whole book.&nbsp; To date, no one has responded to this question.
     
  18. Thaddaeus

    Thaddaeus New Member

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    TWo theories about that verse:
    THe book is not the inspired word of God
    THe second is that that chapter is refering to people after they are saved, what they should do.

    But i can promise you it is salvation by grace through faith, for their are man references to that.
     
  19. FluviusNeckar

    FluviusNeckar Member

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    &nbsp;

    Thank you for your assurance that we are saved by grace through faith.&nbsp; No one debates that truth but everytime this issue comes up, someone assumes that James has attacked Paul's great statement!&nbsp; What Paul did NOT say was that we are saved by grace through faith alone.

    Your second thesis is disingenuous since James was talking about people's salvation in the same way Paul was.&nbsp; Your first statement, however, is at least logical and consistent.&nbsp; If you follow it then you must reject sola scriptura.
     
  20. Thaddaeus

    Thaddaeus New Member

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    no, many scholars believe that the book of James was written for people already saved. You are argueing faith alone. Here let me show you the main reason why i believe that I am justified by Faith ALONE
    Ephesians 2:8,9 kjv
    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Notice he sai NOT OF WORKS and NOT OF YOURSELVES, this clearly shows that it is not salvation by works
     
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