Hi guys. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this debate. I've been busy with other threads.
Ben, you wrote:
"BAPTIZE" means "to IMMERSE".
Agreed.
Sometimes it's in WATER, sometimes it's NOT.
When it's performed as a Christian rite, it's always water.
Read Matt3:11-12 and you will see 3 distinct and separate baptisms:
1. Water (repentance)
2. Holy Spirit (nowater)
3. Fire for sinners ("burn the chaff"---obviously, HELL; nowater)
Fine. Now what?
Romans 6 is also nowater---it is "IMMERSION INTO CHRIST
Um... and just how do you think we are "immersed into Christ", Ben? How does this take place? What ritual accompanies this transition, do you think?
Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Yep, that's true. It's essential to be baptised. That's how we're baptised into Christ.
BAPTIZED-INTO-CHRIST = PUT-ON-CHRIST --- it has nothing to do with water. See Gal2:20
On what basis do you conclude that this is not water baptism, Ben? What process is being described here, do you think? What
is this "baptism", if it's not water baptism?
"One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM" (Eph4)---it is the IMMERSION INTO CHRIST that is the "one baptism". Nowater.
But what
is this "immersion into Christ", if it's not water baptism?
"And all of the circumcised beievers ...were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were ...speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit JUST AS WE DID, can he?"
Well, that's a proof text that I use to show that water baptism is essential. You see,
even after they had received the Holy Spirit, Peter
insisted that they should be baptised! So as far as Peter is concerned, when he says "baptism",
he means water baptism. He is certainly not thinking of anything else.
Correct.
Nope. Nowhere are we told that they were saved at this point in time.
they received the Holy Spirit---Acts11:17
Yep, they received the Holy Spirit.
And then they were baptised in water.
Obviously water baptism
had not been replaced by the Holy Spirit.
"WATERBAPTISM=salvation" is refuted.
*snip*
Straw man.
I do not claim that water baptism=salvation.
Don't have to---Peter stated it very clearly. "Received the Holy Spirit JUST AS WE DID---God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also, after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ."
No, we're not told that the Holy Spirit is available to everybody, regardless of when and where they live. The Holy Spirit (and its miraculous gifts) was granted for a specific purpose, during a specfic period of early Christian history. It is not available today - and even if it was, its availability would have nothing to do with salvation.
Belief is all that gains salvation.
No, that's not what the Bible says.
"For with the heart man BELIEVES, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation".
What version is this, please?
Salvation is always TWO THINGS---God's grace, our faith. "GOD-RAISED-HIM-FROM-THE-DEAD"---grace, "BELIEVE-IN-YOUR-HEART"---faith. Rm10:9-10 Nowater.
*snip*
No, that's a gross oversimplification. I've seen some pretty bad examples of prooftexting in my time, but I'll be hornswaggled if this don't beat all.
Show me "SHOWER-SEALING" in the Scripture.
I don't have to. All I need to do is ask you to prove that the word "sealed" is synonymous with "saved and guaranteed salvation."
Meanwhile (while you are looking that up)---"having BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise---sealed unTO (not "unTIL") the day of redemption." Eph1:13,4:30
But again, you're oversimplifying. Not only are you ignoring the context, but you're also ignoring every other passage which addresses the topic of salvation in a more sophisticated way.
quote:
Well you're wasting your time, because I don't believe that the Holy Spirit comes upon anyone who doesn't believe, and I don't think that this is what Cougan has argued, either.
Apparently it IS what he argued---by saying, "Peter had only BEGUN to talk, so they couldn't KNOW the Gospel"---he contends that they had not yet believed!
He means that they had not yet believed upon Christ, because Christ had not been preached to them yet. They had
definitely believed in God, so they were
definitely believers. When I refer to people who "don't believe", I refer to people who
don't even believe in God. That is what I meant.
If they BELIEVED, then the Holy Spirit indwelt them consequential to their SALVATION!
There is not a hoop large enough to jump through to twist this into conforming to, "waterbaptism = salvation".
Straw man.
I do not claim that water baptism=salvation.
quote:
Salvation only occurs at the Judgement Seat - and at no time before this
Okaaaayyy.... Please tell me your understanding of 1Jn5:12-13: "He who HAS the Son HAS THE LIFE, he who has not the Son of God has not the life; I write this that you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."
*snip*
Well, it's obviously not literal, is it? Because if it was literal,
the earth would currently be filled with immmortals! Are you immortal Ben? Do you genuinely possess immortal life? Would you like to prove this by walking into the streets of Detroit at rush hour, and ignoring the traffic?
The words here are clearly made in the context of
a future promise. It does not mean that we have immortal life
right here and now. Please think carefully about this before responding.
He who PERSEVERES in Christ, until the END, is given eternal life. Col1:23, Heb10:36, Luke 21:19.
Bingo! You've just refuted your previous argument and vindicated my own! You had said that people are saved
instantly, upon their belief and subsequent confession. But
now you present a proof text which
categorically denies this, by asserting that
only he who perseveres in Christ until the end, is given eternal life.