Were Adam and Eve really deceived?

Ttalkkugjil

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Eve, overcome by deceit, was in the transgression. So Adam’s creation is a testimony for God's order that the man should lead. God made Eve as a helper for Adam, women's subordination holding good even before the Fall. The woman should be dependent on the man. So her status shouldn't be that of a leader in the Church.

Adam's story shows that there was no temptation and fall as long as he was alone. As soon, however, as Eve was present, Satan attacked. She was overcome by Satan. She fell into the trap set by him and then persuaded Adam to join her in the sin. So the Fall was brought about, which, in its results, continues. The woman's subordination is shown, a fact which excludes her from being a church leader.
 
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Rescued One

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I agree. But i still think it is jacked up the way it was done.

In all of the infinite ways it could have been done He chose pain, punishment curses and blessings.

Don't you think God has a wiser plan than we can invent?
 
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Ing Bee

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Then why do the other posters insist that Eve was tempted to act based on pride and vanity if she didn't have any?
I don't know. Have they put forth any biblical texts that state or even imply that?
 
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Ing Bee

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I agree. But i still think it is jacked up the way it was done.

In all of the infinite ways it could have been done He chose pain, punishment curses and blessings.

I'd like to respond to this comment, but I want to make sure I can give a helpful response. So, a few questions for clarification:
  1. What is your understanding of Yahweh's purpose in creating everything?
  2. What makes you think there are infinite ways God could have created?
  3. What role are/were humans to play in those plans?
  4. What in your understanding is Yahweh's essential feature?
  5. What is the nature and purpose of pain in Yahweh's creation? Is pain evil?
  6. What is your understanding of the nature of biblical curses and blessings?
  7. What is the source of blessing?
  8. What actually happened when humanity ate the fruit?
  9. What percentage (in your estimate) of suffering is rooted in human selfishness/sin?
Can you "tell me the story" based on your statement below:

"Imo : They were given an opportunity to fail. Why test someone knowing they are going to fail? Knowing they were going to fail means you wanted it to happen in the first place."
 
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friend of

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But how could Eve be deceived if she was also given the command and had the same evidence as Adam for God's goodness to weigh against the words of a stranger. It doesn't make sense to believe someone you just met with no evidence over someone you've known and have had a good relationship with with tons of evidence.

Well, I agree she was probably aware of it, but maybe God didn't directly tell her? God created Eve directly after telling Adam not to eat of the tree. So maybe God considers her to have had second hand knowledge which is not as bad as Adam, with first hand knowledge, disobeying. Adam's disobeying is more direct because God told Him directly not to do something, whereas God (probabky) did not speak to Eve so directly.

That's a lot of directlies
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Well, I agree she was probably aware of it, but maybe God didn't directly tell her? God created Eve directly after telling Adam not to eat of the tree. So maybe God considers her to have had second hand knowledge which is not as bad as Adam, with first hand knowledge, disobeying. Adam's disobeying is more direct because God told Him directly not to do something, whereas God (probabky) did not speak to Eve so directly.

That's a lot of directlies

Interesting idea
 
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misput

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God created Adam sinless but with a nature that would want to sin if given a law forbidding it. So Adam freely chose what he wanted most when he sinned. And therefore incurred the guilt and reaped the consequences.
Yes, Adam and Eve were created with a fleshly nature as well as a Spiritual nature the same as all mankind and will invariably chose to sin but for one glorious option we would all perish.
 
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Eve, overcome by deceit, was in the transgression.

Yes, she was; so was Adam.

So Adam’s creation is a testimony for God's order that the man should lead.

No it isn't.
If God had said "the moral of this is that when I create my church in a few thousand years time, women must never lead", that would be different. But he didn't.

God made Eve as a helper for Adam, women's subordination holding good even before the Fall.

Where does "helper" mean "subordination"?
The Holy Spirit is our helper - is he subordinate to us?
Besides, God said, "it is not good for man to be alone" - all the animals were in pairs - and created woman. He did not say, "it is not good for the man to do all the work alone; he needs someone to boss about."

The woman should be dependent on the man.

Should?
So what about women who never marry; nuns etc? Are they worthless because they do not have a man, or helpless for the same reason?

So her status shouldn't be that of a leader in the Church.

That doesn't follow at all.

Adam's story shows that there was no temptation and fall as long as he was alone.

He was given the command not to eat the fruit of the tree before woman was even created.
If she didn't know what God had said, Adam should have told her.

As soon, however, as Eve was present, Satan attacked. She was overcome by Satan. She fell into the trap set by him

Why do you think the serpent addressed her and said "DID God say .....?"
Most likely because Eve had not heard the command from God for herself, had had to rely on Adam to tell her and may have either not been listening, or didn't ask him to explain. When she repeated God's words to the serpent, she got them wrong.
Because she didn't KNOW, the serpent was able to plant doubt in her mind. He didn't ask, "Did God say ......?" to Adam, because Adam had heard God's voice for himself, and knew perfectly well what God had said.

and then persuaded Adam to join her in the sin.

As Adam had heard God's voice fr himself and knew full well what his creator had commanded, why did he not correct her, reprimand her and then refuse to eat?

The woman's subordination is shown, a fact which excludes her from being a church leader.

Really?
Why did God then appoint Deborah as judge over the whole nation?
Why did he allow Deborah and Huldah to be prophetesses; giving God's word to men? In Huldah's case, the male priests could have consulted a male prophet to give them a word from God. They didn't, they chose to consult a woman.
Why did Jesus choose to tell the woman at the well that he was the Messiah and allow her to go back to her town to tell the men the Good News?
Why did Jesus choose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection, and give the Good News, and a message, to the men who were hiding in fear?
Why did Paul have co-workers who were women, and allow Phoebe, a deacon, to take his letter to the church at Rome?

Even if we take what you said at face value - a woman could be a curate and under the authority of a male vicar, or a vicar and under the authority of a male bishop.
 
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They were both deceived and made the wrong choice. At least this is how it looks in the Bible.

Adam wasn't deceived; he knew full well what God had said and was just disobedient.
 
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Of course. Not that i am happy about it and doesnt negate the fact its messed up.

God's plan is messed up??
Don't you think that God knows what he is doing - as he created everything "very good", Genesis 1:31 - and it is we who mess up?
 
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timewerx

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Adam wasn't deceived; he knew full well what God had said and was just disobedient.

Deceived.

What God told told them is they will die. Serpent instead told them they will not die.

Read Genesis 3:3-4

Furthermore, the serpent is saying in the same verses is that God lied to them (so they will not eat of the tree and they will not know about good and evil).
 
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Deceived.

What God told told them is they will die. Serpent instead told them they will not die.

That wasn't deceit; that was the serpent lying and contradicting God.
Adam KNEW God's command. He knew what God wanted and didn't have to eat the fruit that Eve gave him.
He may have misunderstood God's words, assumed that "you will die" meant physical death and saw that that didn't happen to Eve.
But he had heard God's voice for himself; he KNEW what God had said. The serpent lied to Eve to trick her, but it could not trick Adam into thinking that God had said something different. The serpent didn't even approach Adam; it spoke to Eve.
 
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I don't think we can ever blame Satan alone for our own willful sinning, even if he employs means to deceive us by the things/persons in this life.
You're right. Satan would have no influence on us if it we're not for our desires.

James 1:14-15
each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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God's plan is messed up??
Don't you think that God knows what he is doing - as he created everything "very good", Genesis 1:31 - and it is we who mess up?

Messed up does not mean He messed up. It is the quoloqueal messed up.
 
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It's clearly in the context of deceive.

deceive verb [ T ]
us /dɪˈsiv/ persuade someone that something false is the truth; trick or fool:

Eve didn't persuade Adam about anything. She gave him the fruit; he chose to disobey and eat it.

Paul says that sin came into the world through Adam, not Eve.
 
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timewerx

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Eve, overcome by deceit, was in the transgression. So Adam’s creation is a testimony for God's order that the man should lead. God made Eve as a helper for Adam, women's subordination holding good even before the Fall. The woman should be dependent on the man. So her status shouldn't be that of a leader in the Church.

Adam's story shows that there was no temptation and fall as long as he was alone. As soon, however, as Eve was present, Satan attacked. She was overcome by Satan. She fell into the trap set by him and then persuaded Adam to join her in the sin. So the Fall was brought about, which, in its results, continues. The woman's subordination is shown, a fact which excludes her from being a church leader.

I don't think the Bible ever said anything about Eve being subordinate to Adam.

That "men would rule over you" is NOT a command but rather a consequence of her sin. God never commanded Eve to submit to Adam nor commanded Adam to rule over Eve.

And Eve's name has a very profound meaning in Hebrew. Much more profound than Adam. It is a double meaning which also seems to herald the coming of Christ or loosely translated as the "Mother of Christ" or the "Mother of all who believes in Christ". Crazy stuff as this makes her related to the "Woman of Revelation". It probably was Eve John saw in his Revelation vision.
 
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