We are the Church, so why is it a problem churches temporarily closed?

Monksailor · May 19, 2020

Social Networking vs. REAL Socializing

For the sake of this thread, at least, it should be recognized here that the two are very different. Our current society for the sake of ease and instant gratification desires, among others, has allowed the former to supplant the later. Granted, the ability of instantaneous communication compared to snail mail and the older Bell countertop, immobile, analog (non-digital, non-touch view screen, non-thinking, non-app, non-camera, etc) telephone does have its satisfactions and uses, but for socializing it must be recognized that there is no comparison to real socializing, face-to-face, eye-to-eye, body-to-body talking. There are a lot of clues and indicators which escape notice and inclusion with what one is trying to say in social networking. People are very frequently being misunderstood online in what they are trying to say. Just look at this singular thread and see how many times it has occurred. In such an online "chat" environment the depth of intimacy (if really any at all) and understanding is regulated by the absence of these indicators such as body language and eye contact and voice intonation and inflection. Sadly, I would expect even some here today possibly not even having experienced true intimacy in relationships and hence not aware of what they are missing as many times I have actually witnessed husband and wife texting to each other in the same room or at the same table and many people in a real life gathering of souls forsaking the gathering and having their cell thing in their face. Many are already in the habit of forsaking gathering together RIGHT IN THE MIDST of such.

ZNP · May 19, 2020

Monksailor said:
Social Networking vs. REAL Socializing

For the sake of this thread, at least, it should be recognized here that the two are very different. Our current society for the sake of ease and instant gratification desires, among others, has allowed the former to supplant the later. Granted, the ability of instantaneous communication compared to snail mail and the older Bell countertop, immobile, analog (non-digital, non-touch view screen, non-thinking, non-app, non-camera, etc) telephone does have its satisfactions and uses, but for socializing it must be recognized that there is no comparison to real socializing, face-to-face, eye-to-eye, body-to-body talking. There are a lot of clues and indicators which escape notice and inclusion with what one is trying to say in social networking. People are very frequently being misunderstood online in what they are trying to say. Just look at this singular thread and see how many times it has occurred. In such an online "chat" environment the depth of intimacy (if really any at all) and understanding is regulated by the absence of these indicators such as body language and eye contact and voice intonation and inflection. Sadly, I would expect even some here today possibly not even having experienced true intimacy in relationships and hence not aware of what they are missing as many times I have actually witnessed husband and wife texting to each other in the same room or at the same table and many people in a real life gathering of souls forsaking the gathering and having their cell thing in their face. Many are already in the habit of forsaking gathering together RIGHT IN THE MIDST of such.

Not only so, but since when did the printed page replace attending the actual lecture. Is it really just as good to have the lecture or discussion on paper than it is to have a face to face discussion? It all started with the printing press. In the good old days you couldn't just hand a person a tract, or have them read a book, books were only for the elite who could afford to pay someone to copy them by hand. In reality it all started with the Bible, writing down these books rather can't replace actually having been there in the days of Moses or Jesus or Paul. It is a slippery slope when the church tries to grow and mature.

Bobber · May 19, 2020

ZNP said:
On the other hand I was well aware that for some congregations this would be a death knell. They were not set up, and even if they struggle to post videos online their congregation will scatter, offerings would dwindle, and bankruptcies would be inevitable. Our pastor was very strict in the past to not carry any debt or mortgage, so there is no financial pressure on us.

Yes I think this has been tough on certain type of churches.....churches with a leadership group which have no expertise on setting things up technically when it comes to filming themselves preach and even wanting to work with technology. For so many years some have had a resistance about church or spiritual things on line making light of people who think they've had church because they've watched their favourite preacher on television. Now they've been forced to be somewhat like it something they might have much disdain to have to do.

lsume · May 19, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Hi, I live in the UK and I do miss my physical church. online gatherings are helpful but they are not the same. also not everyone has internet access. but...

Here is where i stuggle a bit. I hear many Christians saying how awful it is that churches are closed, and saying that ministers are in sin for complying with the regulations and staying closed. Some are saying that thsoe churches are never going to open again? Lockdown is temporary, and is being gradually lifted here in the Uk. Most churches won't close. some might do due to lack of income and am not saying i am not sad about it. but, the Church is the bride of Christ. The Remnant. so this virus is not going to destroy her.

i am guessing that we will maybe end up meeting in house churches and holding meetings that way? i don't see how that is actually a bad thing, although I guess many community based and social justice activities set up by church may have to fold which would be very sad. i support those kind of preojects wholeheartedly. i am labelled as vulnerable and marginalised (disabled, sick and on welfare etc) an dhave benefitted from the churches support in this way.

but, although i support social justice and welfare, in temrs of being the church and preaching the gospel, healing the sick, driving out demons, encouraging and prayign for each other, giving to each other who are in need, well having house churches or undrground churches did not stop the early church , did it? In countries like China, the underground church is flourishing. life is much harder for them than it is in the West, yet they have not been extinguished. they are flourishing.

we can still BE the church. we ARE His body. We are waiting for Him to take us to our wedding feast. when i say Church, i do not refer to an institution. i am talking about ALL born again believers. yes, it will be hard. yes there will be limitations. but i dont get the "doom and gloom" of some believers who are saying pastors are sinning for not opening church.

for a start, are we meant to be judging our brothers and sisters in Christ for a personal conviction? maybe God has shown them to close for a season until there are sufficient hospital beds to deal with the crisis. or maybe, some He has told to open? are we not supposed to be UNITED as a body of believers, rather than condemning and judging one another which can cause splits in the body? what kind of witness is it to the world if they see us backbiting at each other in this way?

Please consider how many children are dying every day. It has been about 18,000 dead per day from starvation. That figure is from before the pandemic. Right now because of all of the uncertainty, people are probably not giving as much towards charity. The net net outcome of all of this concern does not look favorable.

Redwingfan9 · May 19, 2020

My church continues to meet "illegally." Our position is that the means of grace and the proclamation of Christ is more important than outmoded fear of a virus or death. We also take a legal and constitutional view of the matter, government cannot prevent the free exercise of religion. Shutting every church down is more certainly a violation of our Constitutional rights.

Curiously grocery stores are open to feed our belly but the church, which feeds are immortal soul, is shuttered by tyrannical governments.

Scott Husted · May 19, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Hi, I live in the UK and I do miss my physical church. online gatherings are helpful but they are not the same. also not everyone has internet access. but...

Here is where i stuggle a bit. I hear many Christians saying how awful it is that churches are closed, and saying that ministers are in sin for complying with the regulations and staying closed. Some are saying that thsoe churches are never going to open again? Lockdown is temporary, and is being gradually lifted here in the Uk. Most churches won't close. some might do due to lack of income and am not saying i am not sad about it. but, the Church is the bride of Christ. The Remnant. so this virus is not going to destroy her.

i am guessing that we will maybe end up meeting in house churches and holding meetings that way? i don't see how that is actually a bad thing, although I guess many community based and social justice activities set up by church may have to fold which would be very sad. i support those kind of preojects wholeheartedly. i am labelled as vulnerable and marginalised (disabled, sick and on welfare etc) an dhave benefitted from the churches support in this way.

but, although i support social justice and welfare, in temrs of being the church and preaching the gospel, healing the sick, driving out demons, encouraging and prayign for each other, giving to each other who are in need, well having house churches or undrground churches did not stop the early church , did it? In countries like China, the underground church is flourishing. life is much harder for them than it is in the West, yet they have not been extinguished. they are flourishing.

we can still BE the church. we ARE His body. We are waiting for Him to take us to our wedding feast. when i say Church, i do not refer to an institution. i am talking about ALL born again believers. yes, it will be hard. yes there will be limitations. but i dont get the "doom and gloom" of some believers who are saying pastors are sinning for not opening church.

for a start, are we meant to be judging our brothers and sisters in Christ for a personal conviction? maybe God has shown them to close for a season until there are sufficient hospital beds to deal with the crisis. or maybe, some He has told to open? are we not supposed to be UNITED as a body of believers, rather than condemning and judging one another which can cause splits in the body? what kind of witness is it to the world if they see us backbiting at each other in this way?

Most are unwilling to seek God for themselves or they wouldn't be saying such things to begin with, but if they did, many churches would never have been in business in the first place.

Archivist · May 19, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
My church continues to meet "illegally." Our position is that the means of grace and the proclamation of Christ is more important than outmoded fear of a virus or death. We also take a legal and constitutional view of the matter, government cannot prevent the free exercise of religion. Shutting every church down is more certainly a violation of our Constitutional rights.

But government has not shut down every church. My church is open. We have online prayer services on Tuesdays and Thursday’s, a parking lot service on Saturdays and an online service and an online children’s service on Sundays. We don’t have to meet in person to worship.

I hope that this works out for your church. I hope you all remain healthy. I hope that someone who has the virus does not come to your church and pass it on to others. But your church is taking a chance.

Curiously grocery stores are open to feed our belly but the church, which feeds are immortal soul, is shuttered by tyrannical governments.

This isn’t tyrannical. More than a century ago similar shutdowns occurred to combat the Spanish Flu. My mother, who is in her 90s, can remember quarantines if someone in a house had measles—no one was allowed to enter or leave that house.

messianist · May 19, 2020

This circumstances, of people not being able to fellowship in person with others is new to most, but the reality is there are others who can't go out and fellowship due to other circumstances in there lives.

Albion · May 19, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
My church continues to meet "illegally." Our position is that the means of grace and the proclamation of Christ is more important than outmoded fear of a virus or death. We also take a legal and constitutional view of the matter, government cannot prevent the free exercise of religion. Shutting every church down is more certainly a violation of our Constitutional rights.

Curiously grocery stores are open to feed our belly but the church, which feeds are immortal soul, is shuttered by tyrannical governments.

I agree with all of that except that I wonder exactly how your "illegal" services operate. If people are packed together and don't wear masks, then they are potentially endangering anyone else that they come close to in the days following. But if all of this is in place, that seems like a quite different matter.

The government, of course, goes at all of this with a 'meat axe' approach and people are understandably mystified at why tattoo parlors are essential but beauty shops are not, why liquor and pot sales are essential but lawncare supplies are not, and so on.

charsan · May 19, 2020

ZNP said:
Does this forum constitute assembling ourselves together? How about a Zoom meeting? How about a phone call?

I would say no

charsan · May 19, 2020

NothingIsImpossible said:
Here in America, people are panicking about it and I don't know why. Many churches do online services during this time. I do realize some churches don't of course, but you can always temporarily watch another church's service online. In the end we are the church, the building is just a place where we come together. It may be called a church, but it's just a building technically. As it says "Wherever two or more gather...."

I would sternly disagree. Of course I can understand this attitude in an evangelical non sacramental church.

Albion · May 19, 2020

charsan said:
I would sternly disagree. Of course I can understand this attitude in an evangelical non sacramental church.

Yes, if the church service is only a sermon and hymn singing, most of that can be done online--not as well, of course, but done--in some other way.

But if the service involves the Lord's Supper, as is the case with most Christians, there's no way for that to be done other than in person.

Redwingfan9 · May 19, 2020

Archivist said:
But government has not shut down every church. My church is open. We have online prayer services on Tuesdays and Thursday’s, a parking lot service on Saturdays and an online service and an online children’s service on Sundays. We don’t have to meet in person to worship.

I hope that this works out for your church. I hope you all remain healthy. I hope that someone who has the virus does not come to your church and pass it on to others. But your church is taking a chance.

This isn’t tyrannical. More than a century ago similar shutdowns occurred to combat the Spanish Flu. My mother, who is in her 90s, can remember quarantines if someone in a house had measles—no one was allowed to enter or leave that house.

Honestly, I'm not worried about Coronavirus in the least. The statistics are pretty clear, those under 55 have a 99.9% chance of survival. The average age of death is 76 in my state, half of whom have died in nursing homes. This isn't something for most of us to be concerned about, certainly no more than we worry about flu which most of us don't think twice about.

Redwingfan9 · May 19, 2020

Albion said:
I agree with all of that except that I wonder exactly how your "illegal" services operate. If people are packed together and don't wear masks, then they are potentially endangering anyone else that they come close to in the days following. But if all of this is in place, that seems like a quite different matter.

The government, of course, goes at all of this with a 'meat axe' approach and people are understandably mystified at why tattoo parlors are essential but beauty shops are not, why liquor and pot sales are essential but lawncare supplies are not, and so on.

According to Fauci and the CDC, masks aren't necessary and won't protect anyone from Coronavirus. That is until they changed their mind for no legitimate reason. In any event, last week there was only one mask. We're a small congregation, the only old people are the pastor and his wife. I really don't believe the media hype when it comes to Coronavirus. The church shouldn't put up with being shut down. Online services aren't acceptable, the virtual world is a fraud. Beyond that, communion is a means of grace and should be administered by elders.

Junia · May 19, 2020

ArmenianJohn said:
Well, it is a problem because we can't gather and fellowship. But it's not such a problem that we should be defying social gathering rules and policies and laws. We are the Church so whether we meet or not that doesn't change. I don't like seeing some churches going against God's Word by being disobedient to the authorities over us and using church attendance as an excuse. While we ought to attend Church services there is no mandate from God's Word saying that we must do so under any and all circumstances. God's Word commands also to love our neighbor (and our enemies); by not attending church services to protect our neighbors we are obeying that command.

amen this is exactly what i was trying to say, but i did not say it as well as this. may God bless you

Junia · May 19, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
Honestly, I'm not worried about Coronavirus in the least. The statistics are pretty clear, those under 55 have a 99.9% chance of survival. The average age of death is 76 in my state, half of whom have died in nursing homes. This isn't something for most of us to be concerned about, certainly no more than we worry about flu which most of us don't think twice about.

i worry about it alittle because of my health issues but i am aware that the chances of getting it are low. more likely to die in a car crash or something liek that. so many people die in their sleep or just getting out of bed! but i know my anxiety about germs could be an issue if i expose myself too much so i just take each day as it comes, God will show me where to avoid if i ask Him. He soemtimes does that. other times He lets me use my common sense

Junia · May 19, 2020

Michael Collum said:
based on the mirroring of the history of Israel and church history, we may be at the passage in Malachi where God regards our solemn feasts as dung. but that is for another generation to observe.

feast days are a matter of personal choice. the NT is our guide for today. we are in the Church Age, and therefpore ROmans 14 is very apt. i think the onlky feast i keep is the communion. oh and i sort of keep christmas but that isn't a biblical feast anyway.

Junia · May 19, 2020

lsume said:
Please consider how many children are dying every day. It has been about 18,000 dead per day from starvation. That figure is from before the pandemic. Right now because of all of the uncertainty, people are probably not giving as much towards charity. The net net outcome of all of this concern does not look favorable.

can donations not be made online or on the phone? i get that many elderly people may not have the web, but very few people in britain have no phone. but i do think you ahve a valid point. as i said upthread, my church and many others like it are very active in social justice projects eg food banks, homeless shelters, domestic violence minsitries etc and so many of these are not going on because of the lockdown. it is sad. and many of us fel vulnerable that we dont have the social support we usually get from these projects

Junia · May 19, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
According to Fauci and the CDC, masks aren't necessary and won't protect anyone from Coronavirus. That is until they changed their mind for no legitimate reason. In any event, last week there was only one mask. We're a small congregation, the only old people are the pastor and his wife. I really don't believe the media hype when it comes to Coronavirus. The church shouldn't put up with being shut down. Online services aren't acceptable, the virtual world is a fraud. Beyond that, communion is a means of grace and should be administered by elders.

i dont really follow US politics or news much, so don;t know about Fauci but I do get that online can feel a bit unreal after a while! it not as good as the real thing. but the end of the world, of the church? not necceessarily. unless it leads to apostasy, which i guess it could. i just have trouble believing this is forever. yeah maybe after lockdown in a year or two there could be as econd wave again and shut the churches again. but who knows?? itmay be like spanish flu, after a few waves, it will die down and then life pick up again. but no one can predict that

Junia · May 19, 2020

Albion said:
Yes, if the church service is only a sermon and hymn singing, most of that can be done online--not as well, of course, but done--in some other way.

But if the service involves the Lord's Supper, as is the case with most Christians, there's no way for that to be done other than in person.

our church is doing virtual communions where we have our wine and bread at home while service is live streamed but i agree it isnt the same...am glad this wont be forever. most churches iwll re open eventulaly even if takes a year or two. some may not. which is sad . but we are the church and our faith is eternal

We are the Church, so why is it a problem churches temporarily closed?

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