We are the Church, so why is it a problem churches temporarily closed?

[ralliann]

Remember the Presbyterians do not believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood.

Ok , I was not sure on that point. Thanks

 

[Job3315]

Hi, I live in the UK and I do miss my physical church. online gatherings are helpful but they are not the same. also not everyone has internet access. but...

Here is where i stuggle a bit. I hear many Christians saying how awful it is that churches are closed, and saying that ministers are in sin for complying with the regulations and staying closed. Some are saying that thsoe churches are never going to open again? Lockdown is temporary, and is being gradually lifted here in the Uk. Most churches won't close. some might do due to lack of income and am not saying i am not sad about it. but, the Church is the bride of Christ. The Remnant. so this virus is not going to destroy her.

i am guessing that we will maybe end up meeting in house churches and holding meetings that way? i don't see how that is actually a bad thing, although I guess many community based and social justice activities set up by church may have to fold which would be very sad. i support those kind of preojects wholeheartedly. i am labelled as vulnerable and marginalised (disabled, sick and on welfare etc) an dhave benefitted from the churches support in this way.

but, although i support social justice and welfare, in temrs of being the church and preaching the gospel, healing the sick, driving out demons, encouraging and prayign for each other, giving to each other who are in need, well having house churches or undrground churches did not stop the early church , did it? In countries like China, the underground church is flourishing. life is much harder for them than it is in the West, yet they have not been extinguished. they are flourishing.

we can still BE the church. we ARE His body. We are waiting for Him to take us to our wedding feast. when i say Church, i do not refer to an institution. i am talking about ALL born again believers. yes, it will be hard. yes there will be limitations. but i dont get the "doom and gloom" of some believers who are saying pastors are sinning for not opening church.

for a start, are we meant to be judging our brothers and sisters in Christ for a personal conviction? maybe God has shown them to close for a season until there are sufficient hospital beds to deal with the crisis. or maybe, some He has told to open? are we not supposed to be UNITED as a body of believers, rather than condemning and judging one another which can cause splits in the body? what kind of witness is it to the world if they see us backbiting at each other in this way?

This might help. Bob Jones called it "barns".

 

[Archivist]

Ok , I was not sure on that point. Thanks

You are welcome. That couldn’t be done on my church.

 

[DamianWarS]

Hi, I live in the UK and I do miss my physical church. online gatherings are helpful but they are not the same. also not everyone has internet access. but...

Here is where i stuggle a bit. I hear many Christians saying how awful it is that churches are closed, and saying that ministers are in sin for complying with the regulations and staying closed. Some are saying that thsoe churches are never going to open again? Lockdown is temporary, and is being gradually lifted here in the Uk. Most churches won't close. some might do due to lack of income and am not saying i am not sad about it. but, the Church is the bride of Christ. The Remnant. so this virus is not going to destroy her.

i am guessing that we will maybe end up meeting in house churches and holding meetings that way? i don't see how that is actually a bad thing, although I guess many community based and social justice activities set up by church may have to fold which would be very sad. i support those kind of preojects wholeheartedly. i am labelled as vulnerable and marginalised (disabled, sick and on welfare etc) an dhave benefitted from the churches support in this way.

but, although i support social justice and welfare, in temrs of being the church and preaching the gospel, healing the sick, driving out demons, encouraging and prayign for each other, giving to each other who are in need, well having house churches or undrground churches did not stop the early church , did it? In countries like China, the underground church is flourishing. life is much harder for them than it is in the West, yet they have not been extinguished. they are flourishing.

we can still BE the church. we ARE His body. We are waiting for Him to take us to our wedding feast. when i say Church, i do not refer to an institution. i am talking about ALL born again believers. yes, it will be hard. yes there will be limitations. but i dont get the "doom and gloom" of some believers who are saying pastors are sinning for not opening church.

for a start, are we meant to be judging our brothers and sisters in Christ for a personal conviction? maybe God has shown them to close for a season until there are sufficient hospital beds to deal with the crisis. or maybe, some He has told to open? are we not supposed to be UNITED as a body of believers, rather than condemning and judging one another which can cause splits in the body? what kind of witness is it to the world if they see us backbiting at each other in this way?

Church is not a building. The more we get our heads around that the more we can figure out what Church is and how we may be strategic during this time.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Here in America, people are panicking about it and I don't know why. Many churches do online services during this time. I do realize some churches don't of course, but you can always temporarily watch another church's service online. In the end we are the church, the building is just a place where we come together. It may be called a church, but it's just a building technically. As it says "Wherever two or more gather...."

 

[messianist]

It is important to do things without grumbling or questioning, but we kind of have to be realistic.

Have you never complained?
Have you never grumbled?

Even David, the man after God's own heart, complained.

Nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.

What you said is true, indeed, in a certain context. But, I also know God wants us to lead an authentic life with Him. I am so glad He forgives my grumbling when it is something to glorify Him. I have fallen short, but His grace has been so sufficient for those shortcomings.

I believe God looks at your heart, at your intentions, and I believe He helps in those moments when we want to grumble. It is very easy to do.

Sometimes, I just have to say to Jesus, "Oh, hey, look. I don't want to do this. I realllllllly don't want to do this. Can you help my heart in this situation? I really need your help because I just can't do it."

David even said, "I pour out before him my complaint; before him, I tell my trouble." Psalm 142:2 and David was a man after God's own heart.

It. Is. Okay. To. Be. Honest. With. God.

He won't strike your dead for being honest and vulnerable. We shouldn't be fearful of God if we grumble if we question. Instead, we should feel confident to go to Him with those things. Because, as humans, we tend to complain. Some more than others.

David wasn't going around complaining like I said, he was talking directly to elohim.

I never mentioned about not taking anything too him you have twisted my words.
Nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

based on the mirroring of the history of Israel and church history, we may be at the passage in Malachi where God regards our solemn feasts as dung. but that is for another generation to observe.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

some of them are acting like the UK and America are going to be judged by God for the churches closing! but we are not subject to wrath, if we are born again believers. that is why i say the true church (us who are Elect) will continue

More likely to be judged by God for opening churches and spreading the virus.

One of the reasons that the government wanted churches to remain open in the UK was for spiritual support, I suppose. But most of the rest of the world treated churches as just another place which could encourage the spread of the disease.

Imagine you are a pastor who opens a church and encourages his congregation of 100 people to turn up. One of them is a carrier of COVID and after that Sunday 40 more people have got it. They pass on to family and friends and the following week the church meets again and now 90 people have got it and numerous other people connected.

Then they start showing symptoms and soon the church member ship dwindles to 20 because the others have all self-isolated but by now the pastor has the disease and the last 10 who were free now have it.

Now how many of those people are going to die before someone realises it was a mistake.

It is the same reasoning why they shouldn't be opening schools. The UK has not got a hold of the disease and seems willing to pass it on to everyone else as long as they can keep track of it. It would seem that Boris Johnson is content to use the entire population of the UK as a giant scientific experiment into whether herd immunity works.

Sensible pastors and congregation will live with the disappointment. I live alone and I haven't seen anyone from my church in two months (apart from online). My old church in the UK is doing the same and the pastors I know who run churches are doing the same.

It has nothing to do with 'judgements from God' and everything to do with being sensible as well as being faithful.

 

[Monksailor]

Remember the Presbyterians do not believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood.

If I am not mistaken, most Protestant churches do not believe so. I believe that this is primarily a Catholic belief; Transubstantiation.

"Transubstantiation – the idea that during Mass, the bread and wine used for Communion become the body and blood of Jesus Christ – is central to the Catholic faith. Indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that “the Eucharist is ‘the source and summit of the Christian life.’” " Pasted from: Just one-third of U.S. Catholics agree with their church that Eucharist is body, blood of Christ

Interestingly, only 1/3 of Catholics in the USA believe in Transubstantiation today and the rest believe that the elements are symbolic. Here is a more detailed chart from same source listed above:

 

[ABCthings]

Churches are opened here 'cause it stupid to keep them close.

 

[Archivist]

If I am not mistaken, most Protestant churches do not believe so. I believe that this is primarily a Catholic belief; Transubstantiation.

"Transubstantiation – the idea that during Mass, the bread and wine used for Communion become the body and blood of Jesus Christ – is central to the Catholic faith. Indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that “the Eucharist is ‘the source and summit of the Christian life.’” " Pasted from: Just one-third of U.S. Catholics agree with their church that Eucharist is body, blood of Christ

Interestingly, only 1/3 of Catholics in the USA believe in Transubstantiation today and the rest believe that the elements are symbolic. Here is a more detailed chart from same source listed above:

Lutherans do not believe in transubstantiation. However we do believe that Christ is fully present in with and under the bread and wine of Holy Communion. The bread and wine is not just a symbol. The Lutheran view is sometimes called Sacramental Union.

 

[ZNP]

Why Sunday?

It was the day the Lord rose from the dead.

 

[ZNP]

Our church was already fully online with a very effective AV ministry. The transition was simple. Also, my offerings were via a text message, I stopped using checks a year ago, so that also is a non issue. We are now setting up small group bible studies using Zoom. I agree that this is something that will push us to grow and expand our ministry.

On the other hand I was well aware that for some congregations this would be a death knell. They were not set up, and even if they struggle to post videos online their congregation will scatter, offerings would dwindle, and bankruptcies would be inevitable. Our pastor was very strict in the past to not carry any debt or mortgage, so there is no financial pressure on us.

So for those of you who are internet savvy, there is a ministry here, helping churches go online.

 

[messianist]

It was the day the Lord rose from the dead.

Is that only the day you worship, fellowship ect.

 

[ZNP]

Is that only the day you worship, fellowship ect.

I thought your question was why does the church meet on Sunday? Did I misunderstand?

 

[Thera]

It is a big deal but this closure is temporary for most churches. most of them will open again. pastors are not sinning by closing their churches. some pastors did open their churches and died from the virus. was that God's will?

The closures are not temporary, because the virus is not real. The churches will be closed again for the "second wave", or who knows how many more waves, before they bring out the Mark of the Beast. Then people will be free to go to Church again, once they receive the Mark - or as they will call it, the "vaccine". That's how I see this being played.

Home church is not an issue to me. The issue I have is that by closing (whether home church or public church), we are surrendering to Caesar what is God's.

 

[messianist]

I thought your question was why does the church meet on Sunday? Did I misunderstand?

Hi I was more interested to see why David had said Sunday, it wasn't a case of me not knowing I have stated in other posts, but I do appreciate you in answering the question rather than just clicking on the optimistic button.

 

[Monksailor]

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching." Heb 10:25


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

"The assembling or gathering of ourselves for Christian communion in private and public, is an earnest of our being gathered together to Him at His appearing. Union is strength; continual assemblings together beget and foster love, and give good opportunities for "provoking to good works," by "exhorting one another" (Heb 3:13). Ignatius says, "When ye frequently, and in numbers meet together, the powers of Satan are overthrown, and his mischief is neutralized by your likemindedness in the faith." To neglect such assemblings together might end in apostasy at last."

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers:

"This neglect was the first step towards apostasy."

Barne's Notes on the Bible:

"It properly means an act of assembling, or a gathering together, and is nowhere used in the New Testament in the sense of an assembly, or the church. The command, then, here is, to meet together for the worship of God, and it is enjoined on Christians as an important duty to do it. It is implied, also, that there is blame or fault where this is "neglected.""

"Whatever were the reasons, the apostle says that they should not be allowed to operate, but that Christians should regard it as a sacred duty to meet together for the worship of God. None of the causes above suggested should deter people from this duty. With all who bear the Christian name, with all who expect to make advances in piety and religious knowledge, it should be regarded as a sacred duty to assemble together for public worship. Religion is social; and our graces are to be strengthened and invigorated by waiting together on the Lord. There is an obvious propriety that people should assemble together for the worship of the Most High, and no Christian can hope that his graces will grow, or that he can perform his duty to his Maker, without uniting thus with those who love the service of God."

It should be noted that among the reasons offered by Barne's before he went on to give the previous paragraph he offers, "1) some may have been deterred by the fear of persecution, as those who were thus assembled would be more exposed to danger than others."

One could propose that the virus is a way satan could be attacking the church, persecuting it, by weakening it ("where two or more are gathered") in order to prepare a way and the rest of the world is just collateral damage to him or better worded, the rest of the world better secured in darkness for him. There is great Spiritual power in such as the laying on of hands, the practice of Holy Communion/Eucharist, sharing the bread and wine together in remembrance, and sharing the joy of another's Baptism and/or dedication.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

"In the neglect of public worship the writer saw the dangerous germ of apostasy."

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary:

"They must draw near to God; it would be contempt of Christ, still to keep at a distance."

All quoted material above in quotes Pasted from <Hebrews 10:25 Commentaries: not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.>

Apostasy: "the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief." Pasted from <apostasy definition - Google Search>


NOTE: Nowhere here in commentary, Bible verse, or of myself is it stated that forsaking the assembling together is apostasy, but that it is a step in that direction and/or subjecting oneself to the possibilities thereof.

 

[ZNP]

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,

Does this forum constitute assembling ourselves together? How about a Zoom meeting? How about a phone call?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Hi, I live in the UK and I do miss my physical church. online gatherings are helpful but they are not the same. also not everyone has internet access. but...

Here is where i stuggle a bit. I hear many Christians saying how awful it is that churches are closed, and saying that ministers are in sin for complying with the regulations and staying closed. Some are saying that thsoe churches are never going to open again? Lockdown is temporary, and is being gradually lifted here in the Uk. Most churches won't close. some might do due to lack of income and am not saying i am not sad about it. but, the Church is the bride of Christ. The Remnant. so this virus is not going to destroy her.

i am guessing that we will maybe end up meeting in house churches and holding meetings that way? i don't see how that is actually a bad thing, although I guess many community based and social justice activities set up by church may have to fold which would be very sad. i support those kind of preojects wholeheartedly. i am labelled as vulnerable and marginalised (disabled, sick and on welfare etc) an dhave benefitted from the churches support in this way.

but, although i support social justice and welfare, in temrs of being the church and preaching the gospel, healing the sick, driving out demons, encouraging and prayign for each other, giving to each other who are in need, well having house churches or undrground churches did not stop the early church , did it? In countries like China, the underground church is flourishing. life is much harder for them than it is in the West, yet they have not been extinguished. they are flourishing.

we can still BE the church. we ARE His body. We are waiting for Him to take us to our wedding feast. when i say Church, i do not refer to an institution. i am talking about ALL born again believers. yes, it will be hard. yes there will be limitations. but i dont get the "doom and gloom" of some believers who are saying pastors are sinning for not opening church.

for a start, are we meant to be judging our brothers and sisters in Christ for a personal conviction? maybe God has shown them to close for a season until there are sufficient hospital beds to deal with the crisis. or maybe, some He has told to open? are we not supposed to be UNITED as a body of believers, rather than condemning and judging one another which can cause splits in the body? what kind of witness is it to the world if they see us backbiting at each other in this way?

Well, it is a problem because we can't gather and fellowship. But it's not such a problem that we should be defying social gathering rules and policies and laws. We are the Church so whether we meet or not that doesn't change. I don't like seeing some churches going against God's Word by being disobedient to the authorities over us and using church attendance as an excuse. While we ought to attend Church services there is no mandate from God's Word saying that we must do so under any and all circumstances. God's Word commands also to love our neighbor (and our enemies); by not attending church services to protect our neighbors we are obeying that command.