We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[Tkjjc]

I've always wondered what pacifists think those swords Jesus commanded the disciples to buy were for. Splitting coconuts?

You know that is almost funny, since Jesus COULD HAVE called on the legions of Angels to wipe out ALL of them. Like 2 swords would have been enough to stand alone. But you keep thinking that, ok?

And one person mentioned that we don't have to worry about that command because Jesus was merely fulfilling prophecy. IOW, Jesus can give a false command so long as he fulfills prophecy?

Was it a false commend? Did Jesus kill or advocate the killing of anyone? Even the ear that was sliced off, He healed back fully. I would even venture to say, that if it wouldn't have been the ear, and he instead had been killed, Jesus would have raised him up, there on the spot.

Come on guys. Pacifism is both unbiblical and unloving. It's foundation is emotion, not scripture, not logic. And it's actually very dangerous to yourselves and the people around you. Please rethink.

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

 

[A. believer]

I can sure understand your amazement. Forty-five years ago, after just serving five years in the US Armed Forces, a person was amazed when I told him that it was a person’s duty to defend his country. He could not understand how a Christian would kill another human. I told him it was our duty. Walking away thinking he was sure a wimp. I held that belief for another fifteen or so years. I am a hard head, always think I’m right, and so didn’t really listen to the Holy Spirit when he was telling me I was wrong. I guess because I am such a hard head Jesus had to personally come tome and tell me I was wrong.

Well, if Jesus told you personally, I guess that ends the discussion. No need to bother with the hard work of studying the Bible for answers anymore.

 

[mont974x4]

Why do some people believe that "Jesus said..." or some person who says "God told me to tell you..." when the things they are told are either not in Scripture or at best are a misunderstanding of what the Bible actually says?

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt anyone for any reason.

The written Word of God tells us the same thing.

(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

When God tells us something it is very dangerous to ignore what he says. Right?

Jesus spoke of one's personal enemies. Those who gossip about you at work, etc. Pastors that have antagonists to their message when they know they are right, etc.


To hurt no one? That is not what Jesus spoke about.

What if a Christian has been called of God to serve on the police force? You think God only want heathens on the force?

Romans 13:2-4 niv

"Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing.

He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."
​

​

God has called some to specifically be able to hurt others for the good of the people.



Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Calminian]

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Oh, and that's another bizarre thing about pacifist arguments. The the New Testament quotes they use against self defense and capital punishment are actually N.T. quotes of the Old Testament. Of course no one (at least in the right mind) denies that God sanctioned these things in the O.T., so obviously these quotes were never meant to undermine these O.T. legislations.

You see, Jesus' command to endure a smite on the cheek (which was a grievous insult in ANE culture) is not a new things, but a reiteration of O.T. principals such as "the wise man overlooks an insult" (Prov. 12:16). We are to be pacifists in regard to insults and personal disputes. But that has nothing to do with defending yourself or family from a murderer.

Vengeance is Mine (Rom. 12:19) is from (Deut. 32:35)

and

Rom. 12:20 Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

is from

Prov. 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head, And the LORD will reward you.


Jesus was not repealing O.T. principals He was simply telling us how they were being misapplied. Do not apply eye for eye to insult for insult. Do not sue over silly things like coats and scarfs and show love to our enemies just as the O.T. instructed. He never once repealed O.T. legislation on self defense, capital punishment and war. He never once commanded soldiers or policemen to quit their jobs. He expressly condoned the arming of his own disciples. And Paul expressly condoned the governments right to the sword (Rom. 13).

Game over guys. Your beliefs are dangerous, harmful and down right unloving. You need to wise up.

 

[Giver]

Well, if Jesus told you personally, I guess that ends the discussion. No need to bother with the hard work of studying the Bible for answers anymore.

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbor to try to teach neighbor, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

Why don’t you let the Holy Spirit teach you then studying the Word of God would not be so hard?

 

[Giver]

Oh, and that's another bizarre thing about pacifist arguments. The the New Testament quotes they use against self defense and capital punishment are actually N.T. quotes of the Old Testament. Of course no one (at least in the right mind) denies that God sanctioned these things in the O.T., so obviously these quotes were never meant to undermine these O.T. legislations.
What is so oblivious about that? Jesus said: (Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” And, (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

You should notice Jesus said: “it was said” he was telling us that was not the way it is to be any more.

You see, Jesus' command to endure a smite on the cheek (which was a grievous insult in ANE culture) is not a new things, but a reiteration of O.T. principals such as "the wise man overlooks an insult" (Prov. 12:16). We are to be pacifists in regard to insults and personal disputes. But that has nothing to do with defending yourself or family from a murderer.

Vengeance is Mine (Rom. 12:19) is from (Deut. 32:35)

and

Rom. 12:20 Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

is from

Prov. 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head, And the LORD will reward you.


Jesus was not repealing O.T. principals He was simply telling us how they were being misapplied. Do not apply eye for eye to insult for insult. Do not sue over silly things like coats and scarfs and show love to our enemies just as the O.T. instructed. He never once repealed O.T. legislation on self defense, capital punishment and war. He never once commanded soldiers or policemen to quit their jobs. He expressly condoned the arming of his own disciples. And Paul expressly condoned the governments right to the sword (Rom. 13).

Game over guys. You’re beliefs are dangerous, harmful and down right unloving. You need to wise up.

You might be surprised who need to wise up.

 

[Giver]

Jesus spoke of one's personal enemies. Those who gossip about you at work, etc. Pastors that have antagonists to their message when they know they are right, etc.


To hurt no one? That is not what Jesus spoke about.

What if a Christian has been called of God to serve on the police force? You think God only want heathens on the force?

Romans 13:2-4 niv​

"Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. ​

He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."​

​

God has called some to specifically be able to hurt others for the good of the people.



Grace and peace, GeneZ

If you would read more of my post on this thread you would see I have addressed your concerns.

 

[Calminian]

You might be surprised who need to wise up.

That's your response?

 

[Giver]

That's your response?

Why don’t you go up and read the rest of my post?

 

[GenemZ]

When I shared with my wife that Jesus told me we were not to hurt anyone for any reason her reaction was much as yours. She asked me if someone came into our house and was going to rape her, what would I do? I told her that I would not hurt him. She angrily left the room. I didn’t discuss it with her any more. My job isn’t to convince anyone of anything. I knew though, that she would go to Jesus and ask him if I was right. She did and came back and told me she would not want me to hurt him.

I see. Your wife is God's Word to you? Adam got us all in trouble for that. No?

Now... After Peter cut off the guard's ear.. after Jesus healed him? Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword. He told Peter to put it back in its holder.

Matthew 26:52 (New International Version)
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.​

Jesus spoke of the misuse of violence to Peter. He did not instruct Peter to get rid of his sword. He told him to keep it.

It was the Lord that wanted them to have swords in the first place!

Luke 22:38 (New International Version)
"The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.​

.

 

[Giver]

I see. Your wife is God's Word to you? Adam got us all in trouble for that. No?

Now... After Peter cut off the guard's ear.. after Jesus healed him? Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword. He told Peter to put it back in its holder.

Matthew 26:52 (New International Version)​

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.​

​

Jesus spoke of the misuse of violence to Peter. He did not instruct Peter to get rid of his sword. He told him to keep it.

It was the Lord that wanted them to have swords in the first place!

Luke 22:38 (New International Version)​

"The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." ​

"That is enough," he replied.​

​

.

Jesus said those who draw the sword die by the sword, he did not say those who misuse the sword or violence

I guess you haven’t read many of my post on this thread so I explain again about the two swords. (Matthew 26:52) “Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

(Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars have said about that passage of scripture: “The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly”. Also, “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.” These scholars wrote the Jerusalem Bible. That’s a Catholic Bible and Catholics believe much the way you do about the subject of self-defense.

 

[Calminian]

Why don’t you go up and read the rest of my post?

Oy! Giver I did. You're making no sense. I'm looking for an argument to respond to.

 

[Calminian]

Jesus said those who draw the sword die by the sword, he did not say those who misuse the sword or violence

Okay I'm going to take a chance here and probe deep into the mind of Giver. I'm attaching a rope to myself so please pull me out if I begin loose it.

Okay, so Giver, what do you think the above means? A) those who use the sword must be killed. i.e. capital punishment (which I though you opposed) B) those who use the sword will always eventually be killed. (which doesn't hold up historically) C) those who try to establish God's kingdom by force will be killed. (which jives with the historical context of the statement).

jeopardy song.............

 

[Giver]

Okay I'm going to take a chance here and probe deep into the mind of Giver. I'm attaching a rope to myself so please pull me out if I begin loose it.

Okay, so Giver, what do you think the above means? A) those who use the sword must be killed. i.e. capital punishment (which I though you opposed) B) those who use the sword will always eventually be killed. (which doesn't hold up historically) C) those who try to establish God's kingdom by force will be killed. (which jives with the historical context of the statement).

jeopardy song.............

I believe it means that one who uses a sword dies. It means if you disobey God one is dead. That doesn’t mean physical death but spiritual.

 

[GenemZ]

I believe it means that one who uses a sword dies. It means if you disobey God one is dead. That doesn’t mean physical death but spiritual.

Jesus was speaking of criminal activity with the sword. Peter was breaking the law in what he had done. He should have been killed on the spot for what he had done! If you are shooting at a policeman during an arrest, he has every right to shoot you down.

There is a right way to arm yourself. And, there is a wrong way.

Luke 11:21 (New International Version)
"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe."
​

Was Jesus using a sinful example to illustrate his point? No, he spoke of a legitimate practice in self defence.

​

 

[Calminian]

I believe it means that one who uses a sword dies. It means if you disobey God one is dead. That doesn’t mean physical death but spiritual.

Okay, so if one, say a policeman, kills someone, even in self defense, you believe he becomes separated from God, but won't necessarily die physically by someone else's gun? So then they don't really die by the sword, they die from an unpardonable sin of not practicing pacifism.

Soooo, thinking this through, why did Jesus say they would "die by the sword"? Shouldn't He have just said, "they will die"?

Unless, thinking this through, Jesus was talking about a spiritual sword? But then this would be very confusing. If one lives by a real sword, he'll die spiritually by a spiritual sword? Very confusing language.

And regarding the disciples, perhaps Jesus commanded them to buy a sword just to test them. I.e, "buy it but you better not use it for any reason or you'll go to hell!" Do you really think Jesus would do something like that?

But if he did, my questions to you is, do you own a gun? Of course it's just to test you, but do you own one?? Would you be willing to buy one and keep in on your person as the Christ commanded? Of course you can't use it, just as the disciples, ostensibly, couldn't.

And then when Paul said that God ordained authorities to used the sword, God was also saying that He's ordain them all to hell at the same time. That seems strangely out of character.

But are these fair deductions?

 

[Giver]

Okay, so if one, say a policeman, kills someone, even in self defense, you believe he becomes separated from God, but won't necessarily die physically by someone else's gun? So then they don't really die by the sword, they die from an unpardonable sin of not practicing pacifism.

Soooo, thinking this through, why did Jesus say they would "die by the sword"? Shouldn't He have just said, "they will die"?

Unless, thinking this through, Jesus was talking about a spiritual sword? But then this would be very confusing. If one lives by a real sword, he'll die spiritually by a spiritual sword? Very confusing language.

And regarding the disciples, perhaps Jesus commanded them to buy a sword just to test them. I.e, "buy it but you better not use it for any reason or you'll go to hell!" Do you really think Jesus would do something like that?

But if he did, my questions to you is, do you own a gun? Of course it's just to test you, but do you own one?? Would you be willing to buy one and keep in on your person as the Christ commanded? Of course you can't use it, just as the disciples, ostensibly, couldn't.

And then when Paul said that God ordained authorities to used the sword, God was also saying that He's ordain them all to hell at the same time. That seems strangely out of character.

But are these fair deductions?

For me to answer you comments we would need to get into what the difference is between a baby Christian and a Spiritual Christian. This will need to be discussed on another thread, and that will have to wait until after this Sunday. I am taking two of my grandchildren to the mountains to cut a Christmas tree.
(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people? “

 

[Calminian]

I knew he'd cop out, but didn't know it would come this soon.

 

[A. believer]

And then when Paul said that God ordained authorities to used the sword, God was also saying that He's ordain them all to hell at the same time. That seems strangely out of character.

It's incredible to think that some people believe that God ordains only reprobate government to protect its citizens by the sword. It's a necessary job, but one of the requirements is that those who hold the positions must be unbelievers.

But you're wasting your time in this discussion. You can't reason with someone who believes that God spoke to them personally to tell them what the text really means. They're already tipping you off from the get-go that they have no intention of dealing with the text with any kind of integrity. It has to be saying what they want it to say, and no amount of context or reasoning will convince them otherwise. This guy will just keep giving you a condescending pat on the head and telling you that you just need to be mature like he is, and then you'll understand.