We are not saved by works?

[Dave L]

Yes it is!

Q. Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
A. By hearing with faith.

Only a corpse is completely bereft of The Spirit anyhow, and corpses cannot hear with faith. They can't hear at all. It is that by hearing with faith the Holy Spirit can become indwelling, as we progressively surrender our will to Jesus Christ's.
.

“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3)

 

[Dave L]

Faith is merely the means by which we actually apprehend salvation. God no longer holding our sins against us, because of what happened on the cross, cannot be any use to us if we don't take God at His Word. i.e Have faith in God's promise. God could promise away for ever, but if we don't believe Him, it will do us no good. It is by hearing and believing that we receive The Holy Spirit.

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
.

Faith is the fruit of salvation.

 

[ExTiff]

“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3)

Q. How was it that the Galatians had begun in the Spirit?
A. They had heard the gospel with faith.

Hearing of the word, combined with faith results in reception of The Holy Spirit.

Salvation is the fruit of faith in God's Grace through hearing of the Gospel.

 

[Dave L]

Q. How was it that the Galatians had begun in the Spirit?
A. They had heard the gospel with faith.

Hearing of the word, combined with faith results in reception of The Holy Spirit.

Salvation is the fruit of faith in God's Grace through hearing of the Gospel.

Begun = starting point. Everything else followed.

 

[Senkaku]

This is precisely why works (after being saved by God's grace) play a part in the salvation process. For we cannot be saved without works showing forth a true faith. So to say works does not play a part in the salvation equation is a contradiction.

I should clarify by saying that it is not the sole catalyst for salvation, it can not be earned, its a gift. like, say you got a large sum of money as a gift, the only stipulation is that you have to pick it up at a facility/home or whatever. You picking it up doesn't mean you earned the gift, it just means that you accepted the gift that was waiting for you. yes it was work for you to get it but it was not earned by your actions of going to pick it up, merely you accepted it.

 

[ExTiff]

Begun = starting point. Everything else followed.

Did you receive [λαμβάνω lambanō], the Spirit by works of the law

Dictionary Definition g2983. λαμβάνω lambanō; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas 1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while 138 is more violent, to seize or remove)): — accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, x when I call, catch, come on (x unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (x after), take (away, up).
AV (263) - receive 133, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17; to take to...

Having begun by the Spirit,

Dictionary Definition g1728. ἐνάρχομαι enarchomai; from 1722 and 756; to commence on: — rule (by mistake for 757). AV (2) - begin 2; to begin, to make a beginning

Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Just as Abraham believed God, so did The Galatians believe God, when they heard the gospel. Was it the Holy Spirit that enabled Abram too, all those centuries before Pentecost, to believe God? Certainly it was Abram's 'faith' that was counted to him as righteousness, not The Holy Spirits 'faith' or fruit in Abraham. (unless you feel you want to add that interpretation to the actual text of scripture that we have been given here.

They could not make a, ( ἐνάρχομαι [beginning]), until they had "heard with faith".

Surely that is not rocket science. Sure the Holy spirit is right there at the point of hearing and believing, and everyone who hears the gospel is enabled to respond, BUT, many are they that are stony pathways. Matt.13:19.
.

 

[Sir Robbins]

Here's how it works. If salvation is conditional based on meeting conditions (very popular today) then people trust in their meeting the conditions instead of Christ. So Paul discourages this, having us drop our trust in self to meet the conditions (that do not exists in the first place), and trust in Christ alone. Then really good works motivated by love naturally follow.

there are many who are solid Christians by spiritual definition that are in a position where "works" and such may be near impossible. One must define works too. Bear fruit? As in spreading the Gospel? People like me will never have children and don't participate in churches due to some ongoing issues I've had with several I've been in. I don't plan on that changing. Who wants to keep going somewhere alone when everyone around you is not? It's like going to Disney world alone. Man would you stick out....

 

[Sir Robbins]

That Paul said we are not saved "by works" is one of the greatest misconceptions in Christian history.

the other great misconception is Paul's words in 1st Corinthians Chapter 7 regarding singleness and celibacy. Many take it WAY out of context....

 

[eleos1954]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

Ephesians 2

For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.

 

[ExTiff]

Ephesians 2

For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.

Here we have the correct order of things outlined for us. WE can do nothing to earn our salvation. WE can do things or not do things, (lets call them all 'works', either good or bad), which might indicate to God and others that we are either appreciating or neglecting our salvation gift. If we sufficiently neglect our free and great salvation, we are liable to lose it altogether. If we appreciate our salvation gift we are all the better for it and God's Kingdom increases on earth. (Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done etc.)

Good works are what God has equipped us to do, by giving to us His Holy Spirit. By doing them we do not gain or secure God's free gift of salvation, it is already ours for nothing, we merely perform the function for which God originally made us, and we can claim no credit for being what God simply intended us to be in the first place. Lk.17:10.
.

 

[MDC]

Here we have the correct order of things outlined for us. WE can do nothing to earn our salvation. WE can do things or not do things, (lets call them all 'works', either good or bad), which might indicate to God and others that we are either appreciating or neglecting our salvation gift. If we sufficiently neglect our free and great salvation, we are liable to lose it altogether. If we appreciate our salvation gift we are all the better for it and God's Kingdom increases on earth. (Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done etc.)

Good works are what God has equipped us to do, by giving to us His Holy Spirit. By doing them we do not gain or secure God's free gift of salvation, it is already ours for nothing, we merely perform the function for which God originally made us, and we can claim no credit for being what God simply intended us to be in the first place. Lk.17:10.
.

So basically you are saying grace enables us to work for our salvation? If not we can lose it altogether correct? But then you go on to say we do not gain or secure salvation by these works.. sounds like you are contradicting yourself. Gods grace IS unmerited favor! Not merited favor in any way

 

[Bible Highlighter]

(a) If saving is past tense done by God's grace, how can works have anything to do with the salvation process?

The Gift:

Jesus is our gift of salvation (See John 3:16).
So Jesus is God's grace towards us.
Ephesians 2:8 says God's grace is a gift.
So if God's grace is like a gift, that does not mean a person can just be irresponsible with that gift. For example: If Bob received a car as a free gift, that does not mean he can run red lights, hit pedestrians, drive drunk, etc. Otherwise, it is highly likely Bob would lose his free gift. If Bob decided to drive the car off a cliff, he would also no longer possess that free gift, but he would have destroyed it. With our Lord it is no different.
While He saves us initially and ultimately by His grace by our accepting Him and abiding in Him, this grace by faith is not a "free get out of hell jail card" our whole lives. When we first come to the Lord for salvation, we need God's grace to wipe out our past sins. That is where it starts. But from there, if we sin again, we can get clean again by His grace by confessing our sins (1 John 1:9), but this is in view or context to walking uprightly (1 John 1:7) (Also see Proverbs 28:13, and Matthew 12:41 cf with Jonah 3:6-10). Confession of sin is not a mere paying of lip service. For Jesus criticized the Pharisees for them honoring them with their lips, but yet, their hearts were far from Him (See Matthew 15:8).

It's a Faith Thing.

For what is the one thing you need to access God's grace?
Faith, right? Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith access the saving grace of God?

No.

So a person needs the proper good works in order to show forth a true faith. James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18).
James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Funny, how the only place in the Bible we see the words "faith alone" or "faith only" it is in context to how we need works.
For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

James is telling us about the "works of faith."
Paul many times was condemning the "works of the Law."
Just do a BlueLetterBible search to see the difference between these two phrases.
Anyways, if you were to look at the context, Paul refers to the "works of the Law" as the Law of Moses.
Paul never condemned the "works of faith" that follow God's grace.
For there is a difference between "works of faith" vs. the "works of the Law." The "works of the Law" were condemned by Paul because the Pharisees were trying to get believers to go back to the Old Testament Law of Moses (the Torah as a whole) in order to be saved. The Old Law as a whole no longer applies. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). The Pharisees were trying to get Christians to think they had to be circumcised to be saved (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19). If someone believes they need to first be circumcised to be saved, they are nullifying the foundation of God's saving grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This is why Paul talked the way that he did in Galatians, and Romans. Paul was fighting against the heresy of Law Alone Salvationism or Works Alone Salvationism that did not include God's grace.

James was fighting against a different heresy known as Belief Alone-ism or Faith Alone.

For James illustrates various people who were justified by their works like Abraham and Rahab. In fact, Hebrews 11 is all about believers having faith that is then followed by their right actions.

For can you imagine what would have happened if Noah decided to say that he believed God alone by faith alone and yet he did not take action to build the Ark? What do you think would have happened if Noah had this kind of belief?

Noah would have perished.
For true faith is proven by right actions.

Let me give you a real world example:

If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

(b) If necessary works follow to remain saved, were you ever truly saved in the first place?

I did not write God's Word; God did. It says you need both faith and works in order to be saved.

Scripture clearly states these facts.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world.

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12).​

The version of God's grace that many propose today is the kind of grace that does not teach that we have to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly or righteously because it says that all you need is faith alone and nothing else (Which waters down the dangers of sin and our faithfulness (or works of faith) towards God). No works are needed. So we can sin and still be saved. But God's grace is not a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4). For any time you exhort others to live holy in some way or say that they cannot turn God's grace into a license for immorality, you are talking about good works that they need to do. These can be either passive good works or active good works.

In fact, this kind of work is not the kind of work whereby we will boast in ourselves, either. We are saved by the work of God both in Justification and in Sanctification. I believe all three persons of the Trinity or the Godhead works in the believer. So any good done in my life in obeying God, I give the credit to our Lord and not to myself.

...do you believe that God's grace, while necessary, only opens the door to make salvation possible; but, that grace in and of itself doesn't save you.

No. While God's grace does open the door to salvation, it is also foundational to our faith in the fact that we have to:

(a) Continue to believe in Jesus as our Savior and in His death and resurrection for salvation.
(b) Confess sin (See note below) in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9).

Also, God's grace is also accessed not by just having a belief in Jesus and in confessing our sins (Note: Confessing sins on those rare moments in life that we may stumble before we walk uprightly with Him), but God's grace is accessed by works or obedience, too (See 1 John 1:7, and Hebrews 5:9). For we show a person our faith by our works (James 2:18); For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

(c) Do you consider "saved" to be a more fluid concept that you can come to (based on God's grace) and then lose (based on your continued works or lack their of?

Not all sin is the same (See 1 John 5:16-17) (John 19:11) (Matthew 12:31-32) (1 Peter 3:21). It depends on the type of command or work being described. I believe some commands or instructions are given to believers in order for them to fulfill them over a certain length of time or over a certain period of their life. Many believers cannot go from zero to sixty overnight. It takes time to study God's Word and to apply it to their lives (2 Timothy 2:15). But yes, the Lord can condemn anyone one of us for not obeying certain commands that He has given to us within the New Testament. John 12:48 (in part) says if we do not receive our Lord Jesus's words, those very words will judge us on the last day. This lines up with what Jesus said about if we do not do what He says we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). What words of Jesus can we not receive that can condemn us? Take your pick? Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46.

In fact, we see in two places in Scripture were a person was once saved, then lost their salvation, and then they were saved again (as a result of their sin). In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son came home and repented to his father, his father said that he was "dead" and is now "alive again" two times. His father also said his son was "lost" and is "found," too.

This is speaking in spiritual terms. He was dead spiritually when he was living in sin as a prodigal son, and he became alive again spiritually when he came back home and repented. In fact, this is just one parable in a series of three parables that is based upon a theme. That theme is repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord) that involves salvation.

James 5:19-20 is another place in Scripture that talks about how we can go from a saved state, to a lost state, and then back again.

Thanks for clarifying, so I can understand what you believe.

Your welcome, but it is not my belief or sole interpretation. Other believers believe this way, as well; And they are not Catholic, etc. They simply read and believe the Bible plainly in what it says. Most who are in the Belief Alone camp are only reading Scripture from the lens or worldview from Belief Alone and they are not reading what the text actually says plainly because they are throwing whole verses and passages out.

 

[ExTiff]

So basically you are saying grace enables us to work for our salvation? If not we can lose it altogether correct? But then you go on to say we do not gain or secure salvation by these works.. sounds like you are contradicting yourself. Gods grace IS unmerited favor! Not merited favor in any way

I don't see where or how you make that out of what I have written. Perhaps you misunderstood it. I thought I had made it clear that we can never earn our salvation. The only earnings we can ever expect from God is the wages for sin, which are death. We have a straight choice. Accept the GIFT which is LIFE, or demand our WAGES, which are DEATH. Whatever 'works' we do, we do because we want to, out of gratitude or choice, and knowing we deserve no reward. God does not approve of 'works' done for any other reason. God can't be bribed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, I think there is a lot we would agree on, but there are some things we don't.

For instance:

(1) Jesus directly contrasted "believes and is baptized" with not believing in Mar 16:16. I don't think anything Jesus said was accidental. He didn't have to add the "and is baptized", but He did. And those who immediately followed Him certainly seemed to put a lot of weight on it in the Scriptures (Acts 2:38, 8:36-39, 9:18, and 10:47 for examples).

To see my explanation on water baptism, see my posts here and here within a recently created thread.

(2) Grace is an attribute/quality/characteristic.

Yes. God being spirit is an attribute of God, too; And Scripture says God is spirit. So it is not a contradiction or wrong to say that Jesus is God's grace or that grace is a person. For Jesus is the very embodiment of grace. Grace is just another word for mercy and salvation. Is that not found in Jesus? Surely it is.

Is it right to conceal what the Holy Spirit (a person in the Godhead) does with an inanimate characteristic? I don't believe it is. For me, it borders on worshipping an attribute over the One with the attribute. Is it fair to the Holy Spirit to openly ignore Him? Should we do the same with the Father, because some people had bad human fathers? How do we not, then, also conceal Jesus, because some people have had a bad experience with some who profess Him or because the very Name of Jesus Christ offends them? If we believe The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit, can we believe that we can willfully conceal one and the others will be happy about it? it seems like They go about lifting each other up. The Father was more concerned about the Son, the Son was more concerned about the Father and the Holy Spirit. He suggested both were greater than Him. The Holy Spirit is more concerned about Jesus and the Father. Shouldn't we be upholding all to give God all the glory and honor The three Persons are due?

I believe we have to have a healthy fear of God. Do you believe a person can speak bad words against the Holy Ghost? If so, then you would not want anyone to inadvertently speak bad words against the Spirit and be forever condemned. The pages of Scripture are different. They are the instruction manual for us. But when it comes to how we speak, we should be careful to care about others not to lead them to say bad words accidentally. God's name can be glorified in so many other ways without us having to put in danger another person's standing with God. For the loving of our neighbor is in another way of showing how we love God. Do you love your neighbor in this way? Do you care about not leading them to say the wrong thing against God?

As you might guess, I don't believe in concealing the Holy Spirit,

Neither do I among trusted believers in whom I know will not say anything foolish.

just like I don't believe in concealing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, because some don't believe they exist.

I believe they exist, too. I just believe that tongues have ceased.

How will people become free from the lies if not exposed to the Truth by people walking in the Light of the Truth? Isn't that what Jesus did? He didn't conceal the Truth.

Sure He did. Jesus concealed truth all the time. While He did speak the truth and led people to salvation, etc. He did not always fully disclose the truth to everyone.

One prime example is in John 10:30-39. Jesus claimed to be God by saying that He was one with the Father. But when the Pharisees picked up stones to condemn Him for his blasphemy, Jesus did not turn their stones into bread and He did not lift them up off the ground with Him revealing His shining glorified state to them (like at the Mt. of Transfiguration). Instead, Jesus deflected so as to protect His mission in going to the cross.

The disciples were also not aware of what was to happen involving His resurrection. They did not fully understand it until a period of time after it happened. Jesus did not give them a revelation or vision so it would be clear to them. It was a truth that He spoke that was concealed to them.

Sometimes He even chased people away with the Truth (John 6, for example).

Actually, Jesus did not explain the whole truth in what He meant to the many disciples who left Him as a result of their being offended by his words. Jesus did not say,

"Hey guys! Wait!
Let me explain the whole truth to you in what I was saying!" ​

Jesus did not do that.

He certainly didn't follow today's church growth formulas!

Neither do I. Only God's Word is what we should base our faith upon. In fact, the idea of church itself today is an unbiblical concept. Believers never gathered together regularly with unbelievers as a part of fellowship and worship. They never went into debt trying to have a big building to call people into so as to preach the gospel. They just went out and preached the gospel. But fellowship was among believers only.

If I really love, I try to rescue from hell, not maintain a friendship right up until they enter the gates of hell for nobody knows when another's time is.

My point was that I wouldn't want my words to play any part in not leading anyone to hell by them speaking bad words against the Spirit. This shows that I love them and care for their soul in not going to hell.

(3) I don't believe God thinks of sin the same way we do. A violation against love is grievous in His sight. But, unforgiveable is another situation.

The Bible lists those sins that can condemn our souls unless we repent (i.e. seek the Lord's forgiveness by way of prayer).

Here are just a few examples in Scripture:
Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

To see my explanation on water baptism, see my posts here and here within a recently created thread.



Yes. God being spirit is an attribute of God, too; And Scripture says God is spirit. So it is not a contradiction or wrong to say that Jesus is God's grace or that grace is a person. For Jesus is the very embodiment of grace. Grace is just another word for mercy and salvation. Is that not found in Jesus? Surely it is.



I believe we have to have a healthy fear of God. Do you believe a person can speak bad words against the Holy Ghost? If so, then you would not want anyone to inadvertently speak bad words against the Spirit and be forever condemned. The pages of Scripture are different. They are the instruction manual for us. But when it comes to how we speak, we should be careful to care about others not to lead them to say bad words accidentally. God's name can be glorified in so many other ways without us having to put in danger another person's standing with God. For the loving of our neighbor is in another way of showing how we love God. Do you love your neighbor in this way? Do you care about not leading them to say the wrong thing against God?



Neither do I among trusted believers in whom I know will not say anything foolish.



I believe they exist, too. I just believe that tongues have ceased.



Sure He did. Jesus concealed truth all the time. While He did speak the truth and led people to salvation, etc. He did not always fully disclose the truth to everyone.

One prime example is in John 10:30-39. Jesus claimed to be God by saying that He was one with the Father. But when the Pharisees picked up stones to condemn Him for his blasphemy, Jesus did not turn their stones into bread and He did not lift them up off the ground with Him revealing His shining glorified state to them (like at the Mt. of Transfiguration). Instead, Jesus deflected so as to protect His mission in going to the cross.

The disciples were also not aware of what was to happen involving His resurrection. They did not fully understand it until a period of time after it happened. Jesus did not give them a revelation or vision so it would be clear to them. It was a truth that He spoke that was concealed to them.



Actually, Jesus did not explain the whole truth in what He meant to the many disciples who left Him as a result of their being offended by his words. Jesus did not say,

"Hey guys! Wait!
Let me explain the whole truth to you in what I was saying!" ​

Jesus did not do that.



Neither do I. Only God's Word is what we should base our faith upon. In fact, the idea of church itself today is an unbiblical concept. Believers never gathered together regularly with unbelievers as a part of fellowship and worship. They never went into debt trying to have a big building to call people into so as to preach the gospel. They just went out and preached the gospel. But fellowship was among believers only.



My point was that I wouldn't want my words to play any part in not leading anyone to hell by them speaking bad words against the Spirit. This shows that I love them and care for their soul in not going to hell.



The Bible lists those sins that can condemn our souls unless we repent (i.e. seek the Lord's forgiveness by way of prayer).

Here are just a few examples in Scripture:
Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8.

So we have our differences. I understand how you perceive what you are doing to be good. I don't agree, but I can't force you to come to my understanding. I clearly believe the Holy Spirit shouldn't be hidden under any circumstances. I believe grace is an attribute, not a person, and believe the Persons of the Godhead should be acknowledged to all, even if it means that some will make bad choices. Jesus also said things that encouraged bad responses as well as good responses. Jesus didn't shy away from telling them the Truth, even when it meant that people would make bad choices as a result. Loving is sharing the Truth, not protecting from the Truth.

I see no reason to believe that tongues was done away with. It is inconsistent to say that one doesn't believe the gifts have ceased but that one of the gifts in the list has. No gifts have ceased to be given. The same Holy Spirit that gives them all is still here today. There is no Scriptural indication that any of the gifts will cease while the Holy Spirit is still in this world, including tongues. Our comfort level with a gift or how some abuse that gift doesn't determine whether it is really still given or not. If it did, all the offices, starting with pastor, would be ceased as well.

With regard to Jesus, you actually made my point. He said things that chased people away. He even turned to His closest and asked if they wanted to leave to. And, then told them that one of them was a devil.

With regard to the transfiguration: What good would it have served to make everyone fear Him? He could have called the legions of angels as well, but for what benefit--other than to instill fear? Isn't the whole point to have willing worshippers, not those who just do it because they have an unhealthy fear of what He might do if they don't? The cross enables those who will worship Him to be saved from wrath and to Life, despite what we deserve.

 

[Dave L]

there are many who are solid Christians by spiritual definition that are in a position where "works" and such may be near impossible. One must define works too. Bear fruit? As in spreading the Gospel? People like me will never have children and don't participate in churches due to some ongoing issues I've had with several I've been in. I don't plan on that changing. Who wants to keep going somewhere alone when everyone around you is not? It's like going to Disney world alone. Man would you stick out....

I know what you are talking about. But works = law and compliance to it. And today, many turn the gospel into law for the self-righteous to keep. But if you have the Holy Spirit, he is evidence God saved you bearing witness in our hearts.

The gospel simply announces whoever believes has eternal life. Similar to, whoever sits down for awhile is resting. Or whoever has blue eyes and blond hair probably hails from northern Europe.

 

[Dave L]

Did you receive [λαμβάνω lambanō], the Spirit by works of the law

Dictionary Definition g2983. λαμβάνω lambanō; a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas 1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while 138 is more violent, to seize or remove)): — accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, x when I call, catch, come on (x unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (x after), take (away, up).
AV (263) - receive 133, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17; to take to...

Having begun by the Spirit,

Dictionary Definition g1728. ἐνάρχομαι enarchomai; from 1722 and 756; to commence on: — rule (by mistake for 757). AV (2) - begin 2; to begin, to make a beginning

Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Just as Abraham believed God, so did The Galatians believe God, when they heard the gospel. Was it the Holy Spirit that enabled Abram too, all those centuries before Pentecost, to believe God? Certainly it was Abram's 'faith' that was counted to him as righteousness, not The Holy Spirits 'faith' or fruit in Abraham. (unless you feel you want to add that interpretation to the actual text of scripture that we have been given here.

They could not make a, ( ἐνάρχομαι [beginning]), until they had "heard with faith".

Surely that is not rocket science. Sure the Holy spirit is right there at the point of hearing and believing, and everyone who hears the gospel is enabled to respond, BUT, many are they that are stony pathways. Matt.13:19.
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Many assume they received the Spirit by the works of the law. They turn the gospel into law and reward the self-righteous for keeping it.

 

[ExTiff]

Many assume they received the Spirit by the works of the law. They turn the gospel into law and reward the self-righteous for keeping it.

But that is not what we are talking about here. What is at issue is whether The Holy Spirit can be 'received' BEFORE one has even heard and believed the Gospel. I say the scripture seems to indicate the Holy Spirit will only indwell a person who has already heard (i.e. understood), and responded positively.

In effect they have believed God no longer holds their sins against them because "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and no longer holding their sins against them". The Holy Spirit can then open the way for that faithfully hearing person to themselves be reconciled to God, so that the process of Sanctification overseen in them, by The Holy Spirit, can begin. The whole experience is Regeneration, and is entirely due to God's Grace.

The gospel simply announces whoever believes has eternal life. Similar to, whoever sits down for awhile is resting. Or whoever has blue eyes and blond hair probably hails from northern Europe.

The Gospel is the announcement of what God has done to remove the barrier between us and Himself. God no longer holds our sins against us. We need not then be afraid to be reconciled to God in confessing our sins, owning up to and dropping our hostility, and inviting God into our lives for Him to clean them out and make them habitable for The Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

But that is not what we are talking about here. What is at issue is whether The Holy Spirit can be 'received' BEFORE one has even heard and believed the Gospel. I say the scripture seems to indicate the Holy Spirit will only indwell a person who has already heard (i.e. understood), and responded positively.

In effect they have believed God no longer holds their sins against them because "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and no longer holding their sins against them". The Holy Spirit can then open the way for that faithfully hearing person to themselves be reconciled to God, so that the process of Sanctification overseen in them, by The Holy Spirit, can begin. The whole experience is Regeneration, and is entirely due to God's Grace.
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Received = I received a letter today. Not, I chose to receive a letter today.

 

[ExTiff]

Hearing and believing what you have heard are not works or choosing. They are listening and taking God at His word. No work at all involved in that. No choice either, apart from choosing whether to call God a liar when the gospel tells you God no longer holds your sins against you anymore.