We are not saved by works?

[thecolorsblend]

Hearing and believing what you have heard are not works or choosing. They are listening and taking God at His word. No work at all involved in that. No choice either, apart from choosing whether to call God a liar when the gospel tells you God no longer holds your sins against you anymore.

???

Hearing, believing, choosing? Those are all verbs. Actions.

Works.

 

[ExTiff]

???

Hearing, believing, choosing? Those are all verbs. Actions.

Works.

Not 'works of the law' but works of faith. The way you would have it we could never know of or believe the gospel without 'works'. Your definition of the word 'works' in this context is defective.
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[thecolorsblend]

Not 'works of the law' but works of faith. The way you would have it we could never know of or believe the gospel without 'works'. Your definition of the word 'works' in this context is defective.
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Mmm, fair enough.

I hadn't followed every post in this thread but (as you obviously understand already) "works" are frequently used in this discussion in a broader sense rather than your more focused understanding of "works of the law". I had assumed you meant the more general sense of the word.

As a defense, I offer the fact that it's been a long day.

 

[ExTiff]

Mmm, fair enough.

I hadn't followed every post in this thread but (as you obviously understand already) "works" are frequently used in this discussion in a broader sense rather than your more focused understanding of "works of the law". I had assumed you meant the more general sense of the word.

As a defense, I offer the fact that it's been a long day.

OK. Don't mention it. Have a relaxing rest.

 

[thecolorsblend]

OK. Don't mention it. Have a relaxing rest.

Way ahead of you, bro. My pizza should be here any minute.

 

[Light of the East]

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

Nice misuse of the Scripture. It is rather obvious by the number of people who have been born from above and then fallen into sin, as well as those of us who go to Confession on a regular basis, that this vere is A.) not saying what you are inferring B.) has a totally different meaning than what you are inferring C.) is probably in a Greek tense which indicates continuity of action rather than a once and done issue.

 

[Dave L]

Nice misuse of the Scripture. It is rather obvious by the number of people who have been born from above and then fallen into sin, as well as those of us who go to Confession on a regular basis, that this vere is A.) not saying what you are inferring B.) has a totally different meaning than what you are inferring C.) is probably in a Greek tense which indicates continuity of action rather than a once and done issue.

Those who are born again cannot habitually live in sin.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[Light of the East]

Those who are born again cannot habitually live in sin.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

That's more like it!

The key word is "habitually," as in doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over without either repentance or the attempt to find the power in Christ to overcome that sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

Everyone will be judged by their works; no one will be saved by them.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Your answer begs the question, "why would someone who doesn't believe bother with baptism"?

It says "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved". Baptism is a requirement.

The eunuch said to Phillip, "here is water...", and Philip baptized him. Philip didn't say he need not bother with it.

 

[Robin Mauro]

We are told to be baptized, but it is not a requirement of salvation, otherwise the man who hung next to Jesus on the cross could not have been saved.
I do not think it was an accident that this story of an unbaptized person being saved is written about.

 

[HTacianas]

We are told to be baptized, but it is not a requirement of salvation, otherwise the man who hung next to Jesus on the cross could not have been saved.
I do not think it was an accident that this story of an unbaptized person being saved is written about.

No one was baptized in those days. Not fully anyway. The thief was saved under the old covenant.

 

[Albion]

Well, there are verses that say Jesus was baptizing or at least was present while his disciples were baptizing, but be that as it may, Old Covenant or New Covenant, we should all agree that a person could be saved through a confession of faith in Christ when made TO Christ himself. That's rarely been possible, however.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Okay so this has always confused me. Maybe someone here can answer my question satisfactorily. In Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul says that wee are saved by faith and not by works. Paul even takes it a step further in Romans 4:5 and says that a person who doesn't work AT ALL. That their faith will be counted for righteousness.

Yet in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus sends people who do works into heaven and people who don't do works to hell. But wait a minute! Didn't Paul just say that a man who has no works will still go to heaven? Also in James 2:14-26 James says that faith without works is a dead faith. Why the contradiction in the Bible? Wasn't Paul aware that if we had no works that we wouldn't go to heaven? I'm not calling Paul a heretic but I'm calling him wrong. Because what he said doesn't match up with what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46! Or... Does it???

While certainly not as fun as 19 pages of arguments. This article here, coming from the perspective of 1 John 3:9, might help you better sort it all out in your mind.

The Meaning of 1 John 3:9 - Faith Baptist Bible College

 

[ExTiff]

No one was baptized in those days. Not fully anyway. The thief was saved under the old covenant.

This reasoning is a bit whacky. Are you suggesting that eternal life was promised under the Old Covenant? Before Christ had brought in The New by his sacrificial and atoning death? That almost makes the atonement and resurrection non events.

Not that I disagree with the notion that eternal life was at Christ's disposal even here on earth and He never stepped outside what the Father allowed, either before or after the crucifixion. The fact remains though that baptism was certainly done before the crucifixion and the thief was, (as far as we know, not baptized), though it is also quite possible that he actually was. John.1:26-28. Mark.11:30-32.

You will have some difficulty convincing most Bible scholars, who would alert you to the theological implications carried by your rather unusual suggestion.
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[Robin Mauro]

No one was baptized in those days. Not fully anyway. The thief was saved under the old covenant.

That is untrue. John the Baptist baptized even before Christ started preaching.

 

[HTacianas]

That is untrue. John the Baptist baptized even before Christ started preaching.

John the Baptist offered a Jewish baptism of repentance. It was not a Christian baptism.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Here we have the correct order of things outlined for us. WE can do nothing to earn our salvation. WE can do things or not do things, (lets call them all 'works', either good or bad), which might indicate to God and others that we are either appreciating or neglecting our salvation gift. If we sufficiently neglect our free and great salvation, we are liable to lose it altogether. If we appreciate our salvation gift we are all the better for it and God's Kingdom increases on earth. (Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done etc.)

Good works are what God has equipped us to do, by giving to us His Holy Spirit. By doing them we do not gain or secure God's free gift of salvation, it is already ours for nothing, we merely perform the function for which God originally made us, and we can claim no credit for being what God simply intended us to be in the first place. Lk.17:10.
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Yes, we can take no credit, because nothing but Christ can save us. We cannot pay for the sins we have committed. The wages of sin is death.
After we receive, we give back.
I like the saying we are not saved by works, but we just as surely are not saved without them.
James said "faith without works is dead", and Jesus said "I was hungry and you fed me..."( or not), and "as you have done to the least of these, you have done to me";
And then pronounced judgment on the doers and non-doers based on their works.
Because if we claim to love Christ, we must pick up our cross, and if we see our brother in need, and are able to help, we must help them.
Otherwise our faith is dead.
It is not really faith at all.
It is the free gift that costs us everything
Praise be to God.

 

[Robin Mauro]

John the Baptist offered a Jewish baptism of repentance. It was not a Christian baptism.

Untrue.
"There is one coming after me, whose sandal straps I am not fit to untie." John the Baptist.
And he leaped inside his mothers womb at he sound of pregnant mother Mary's voice. He was all about repentance and salvation. He was all about Jesus!

 

[HTacianas]

Untrue.
"There is one coming after me, whose sandal straps I am not fit to untie." John the Baptist.
And he leaped inside his mothers womb at he sound of pregnant mother Mary's voice. He was all about repentance and salvation. He was all about Jesus!

Let's back up a bit. Jesus said he "who believes and is baptized shall be saved."

We have a now two thousand year tradition of baptism in the Church. Yet you have taken upon yourself to tell people there is no need for baptism.

Where do you get that authority from?