Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

[Shimokita]

Is it your works that save you, or is it Jesus.

It's one or the other. It's certainly not both.

Who SAVES you?

Is it your faith that saves you, or is it Jesus?

It’s one or the other. It’s certainly not both.

Who SAVES you?

 

[Grip Docility]

A person is saved by faith, apart from works, just as Scripture states, friend. The question is whether that salvation can thereafter be forfeited. You consider yourself saved, and you know perfectly well that if you go out raping and killing people tomorrow, and do not repent, you will forfeit your inheritance just as St. Paul teaches throughout the New Testament.

Oh dear... Here it is again.

Faith alone.... Yeah, but what if I go out and Murder 1000 people, rape a convent, rob 4000 banks and push an old person down the stairs???

C'mon! Shimokita... aren't we past this one yet? Would a person infused with the Holy Spirit desire to do such things, let alone follow through with them?

The capacity to Love is so dramatically increased under Grace, this genuinely seems a little Apple and Oranges to me.

 

[Grip Docility]

Is it your faith that saves you, or is it Jesus?

It’s one or the other. It’s certainly not both.

Who SAVES you?

JESUS

Now ask me who I place my FAITH in.

 

[Shimokita]

Oh dear... Here it is again.

Faith alone.... Yeah, but what if I go out and Murder 1000 people, rape a convent, rob 4000 banks and push an old person down the stairs???

C'mon! Shimokita... aren't we past this one yet? Would a person infused with the Holy Spirit desire to do such things, let alone follow through with them?

The capacity to Love is so dramatically increased under Grace, this genuinely seems a little Apple and Oranges to me.

You may not want to do them today but we don’t know about tomorrow. Yes, YOU are capable of the numerous heinous sins that St. Paul warns Christians against. YOU are capable of murder. Do not be deceived.

Now why is that? Because the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not turn you into an automaton without free choice. You can reject the Holy Spirit and what He prompts you to do. You make the choice to follow Him or reject Him every moment of your life.

Let me give you an example. Do you sin? Obviously it wasn’t the Holy Spirit who prompted you to do whatever sins that are in your life. When you did those sins you rejected what the Holy Spirit prompted you to do.

 

[Shimokita]

JESUS

Now ask me who I place my FAITH in.

And so does Jesus save me, friend.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So your logic is that since Paul is writing the believers in Ephesus and since he speaks of "sons of disobedience" therefore the believers in Ephesus were sons of disobedience! Good to exercise some basic reading comprehension skills where reading scripture. At least do that!

Reading skills has nothing to do with your conclusion.

Sons of disobedience could be ANYONE.
A non-believer.
A believer that returns to his life of sin.

No need to argue who was being written to.

Paul tells the believers NOT TO BECOME, or PARTAKE, of the sons of disobedience.

If Paul is WARNING against it,,,,it surely means that IT IS POSSIBLE to once again become entangled with the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 5:6-7

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sheol to me is the place where the Dead, who are not in Christ, go. These souls await the final day of Judgment... and will be either hardened against God, or Desperate for God, when the realm of the Dead is poured forth, as Revelation states.

Slightly different... but there's a striking similarity, in the same light. Do we differ slightly? Sure.

Enough to argue and duke it out over? Most certainly not!

I agree.
And...we all know FOR SURE, that those that love God go to be with God immediately.

 

[Grip Docility]

You may not want to do them today but we don’t know about tomorrow. Yes, YOU are capable of the numerous heinous sins that St. Paul warns Christians against. YOU are capable of murder. Do not be deceived.

Now why is that? Because the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not turn you into an automaton without free choice. You can reject the Holy Spirit and what He prompts you to do. You make the choice to follow Him or reject Him every moment of your life.

Let me give you an example. Do you sin? Obviously it wasn’t the Holy Spirit who prompted you to do whatever sins that are in your life. When you did those sins you rejected what the Holy Spirit prompted you to do.

I still fail. But, Love constrains me, by HIS Imparted Holy Spirit. It's still His complete package, and sincerely.....

Rape? No desire
Murder? No desire
Kill someone? If protecting the weak, or in self defense, could happen.
But seriously, I gave Jesus my widows mite of imperfect faith and God has sealed me into True BELIEF. I tell you the truth, not by myself, but by God... I am genuinely constrained by Love.

Ask me if I'm saved. I'll scream YES. Ask me if I'll let my BEST FRIEND and SAVIOR go. I'll scream NO!

Ask me if I have plans of being perfect before death. I say the odds are the same as the odds we came from monkeys.

 

[Grip Docility]

And so does Jesus save me, friend.

AMEN!

 

[Shimokita]

I still fail. But, Love constrains me, by HIS Imparted Holy Spirit. It's still His complete package, and sincerely.....

Rape? No desire
Murder? No desire
Kill someone? If protecting the weak, or in self defense, could happen.
But seriously, I gave Jesus my widows mite of imperfect faith and God has sealed me into True BELIEF. I tell you the truth, not by myself, but by God... I am genuinely constrained by Love.

Ask me if I'm saved. I'll scream YES. Ask me if I'll let my BEST FRIEND and SAVIOR go. I'll scream NO!

Ask me if I have plans of being perfect before death. I say the odds are the same as the odds we came from monkeys.

Friend, I sincerely believe you.

But tomorrow is a different day. Christians can fall, and that is why the New Testament contains so many warnings against falling.

 

[Grip Docility]

Friend, I sincerely believe you.

But tomorrow is a different day. Christians can fall, and that is why the New Testament contains so many warnings against falling.

Not by my will, but by His, I will not let Him go! And even if I falter, I promise you He'll Grasp me tight and keep me, correct me, lead me and guide me.

How do I know?

He promised!

 

[Shimokita]

Not by my will, but by His, I will not let Him go! And even if I falter, I promise you He'll Grasp me tight and keep me, correct me, lead me and guide me.

How do I know?

He promised!

He most definitely will lead and guide you.

The question is whether we will follow.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Your interpretation on Romans 2 is in no way supported by what it actually says. Romans 2 talks about the final Judgment. It is talking about how all men will be judged by the what they do.

"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:3).​

Paul mentions how these men's sinful deeds will not escape the judgment of God. Paul's concern here is not for them to simply believe on Jesus, but to stop judging others hypocritically. Meaning, we cannot judge others for doing certain sins if we are doing those same kinds of sins.

Again we read of the final Judgment and how works is tied to that:

5 "...after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" (Romans 2:5-6).​

Again, Paul never said that we can escape judgment or the day of wrath by just believing in Jesus alone. Paul says that God will render to every man according to his deeds. Here is the next part of the text that talks about the final judgment of God:

7 "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:7-11).​

Take notice here that Paul does not refer to eternal life or immortality in regards to the Old Law or Old ways. Paul here is still talking about the final judgment from verses 3-5. Paul is saying that "tribulation" will be upon every man who does evil. It says God is no respecter of persons.

Verse 12 says:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law" (Romans 2:12).

So sinning even when you think you are not under any law can make one to still perish.

If you were to keep reading to the end of Romans 2, Paul alludes to the problem of "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Romans 2:25-29). In Romans 3:1, Paul asks the question, "What profit is there of circumcision?" So the point of the problem here is that men thought they had to be circumcised in order to be saved.

For this is the same heresy that they fought at the Jerusalem counsel.

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. " (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

This is why Paul himself says:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans.

This is a gross misinterpretation of what Jesus was teaching. Again, Jesus was making changes in the Law so we know that Jesus was not teaching the Old Testament Law of Moses in it's entirety.

Spoiler

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

The Old Way says:

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).

The Old Way says:

"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.

The Old Way says:

20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?"
(John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Also, Luke 10 is teaching something new as a part of loving your neighbor (See the Parable of the Good Samaritan - Luke 10:29-37). For where in the Old Testament does it teach that one must help the poor beat up guy on the side of the road as a part of loving your neighbor? It doesn't. This is why it is a new teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus was using the Old Law as a spring board for His New Testament teachings (with the New Covenant officially go into effect with Christ's death). So for you to point with your finger at Luke 10:25-28 that this is exclusively the Law of Moses alone is not proof that He was exclusively teaching the Law of Moses or the Old way alone as you suggest.

Besides, the teaching of Jesus (Which Jesus agreeing with the lawyer on the truth that we are to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life) can be seen after the cross (See 1 Corinthians 16:22, and 1 John 3:15). So this proves that you are not correct here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

In Ephesians 2:9, it mentions the kind of work that men boast in.
For Ephesians 2:9 talks about works in relation to boasting.
This is a man directed work.
However, the work of God done through the believer is entirely different kind of work.
When the Lord does a good work through us (John 15:5), we do not boast in ourselves of this kind of work like a person would boast in doing in Ephesians 2:9, but they would boast in the Lord and the good work that is done through them.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and it talks about God directed works done through the believer AFTER a person is saved by God's grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing with "Initial Salvation." For gifts are received once. A person is quickened once (Ephesians 2:1). For this is why Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. This again is a one time thing. Christ coming into our heart can be a one time event.

Romans 4 is dealing with "Initial Salvation" or "Justification."
A person does not do work when they first come to the Lord but they first trust in God for salvation.
But one has to read the end of this chapter. Abraham later was able to also PERFORM (works or Sanctification) after he was saved by God's grace through faith (See: Romans 4:21).

 

[sculleywr]

We can only be Saved, when we acknowledge it is God's Righteousness that saves us. To say our own "Righteousness" saves us in any form or fashion is preposterous, arrogant and hypocritical.

NO THING is hidden from the Spirit of God. NO THING. If honesty is employed... we are beggars fed a feast.

Do you BELIEVE?

It is God transforming us to become righteous. Scripture already said that we can become righteous. That is exactly what glorification is. We become truly righteous through the power of God.

 

[Grip Docility]

It is God transforming us to become righteous. Scripture already said that we can become righteous. That is exactly what glorification is. We become truly righteous through the power of God.

I make a hard line of disagreement here.

He indeed transforms us... but these bodies of death sin. You can type till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, you and I both know that we are clinging to the Cross.

He Became Righteousness, Who knew no sin, for the Unrighteous, Who were sinful.

He became Sin, to impart Righteousness to the sinful, that the Unrighteous could be counted the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21

Do I fear that I am unequipped to do the work He has planned for me? I do not. Do I do the work He has planned for me? I do not. He does it through me. I am merely a willing vessel to Him.

Hebrews 6:19 ; 2 Corinthians 4:7

 

[Shimokita]

It is God transforming us to become righteous. Scripture already said that we can become righteous. That is exactly what glorification is. We become truly righteous through the power of God.

Yeah this is what I think a lot of the faith alone (imputed righteousness) folks don’t get. They seem to think that we believe that our righteousness comes from ourselves, as though it were some inherent quality that we possessed beforehand, or that we are capable of making ourselves more righteous merely by our good works.

They don’t seem to get that it is God who makes us righteous by the merits won by our Lord on the cross, so that when he declares us righteous it is based on reality, rather than some fictional notion of “When I approach God he only sees Jesus”.

They seem to think that there are only two possibilities 1) the personal righteousness of Christ, and 2) our own inherent righteousness that comes from ourselves. They don’t seem to get that we can have our own personal righteousness, but one that is given to us as a gift of God.

 

[Grip Docility]

He most definitely will lead and guide you.

Amen!

The question is whether we will follow.

The Answer will always be Yes.

 

[Shimokita]

Amen!


The Answer will always be Yes.

Yes, but we have all heard that before from Christians who are now ranting atheists.

Should you find yourself in that category of ranting atheists in the future, someone else will come along and say exactly as you have said here: “Well, that just shows that Grip Docility was never truly saved in the first place. I will never fall because I am truly saved, unlike him.”

You can fall, friend. We all can. It is great that you have confidence in the Lord, but do not be deceived.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yeah this is what I think a lot of the faith alone (imputed righteousness) folks don’t get. They seem to think that we believe that our righteousness comes from ourselves, as though it were some inherent quality that we possessed beforehand, or that we are capable of making ourselves more righteous merely by our good works.

They don’t seem to get that it is God who makes us righteous by the merits won by our Lord on the cross, so that when he declares us righteous it is based on reality, rather than some fictional notion of “When I approach God he only sees Jesus”.

They seem to think that there are only two possibilities 1) the personal righteousness of Christ, and 2) our own inherent righteousness that comes from ourselves. They don’t seem to get that we can have our own personal righteousness, but one that is given to us as a gift of God.

Disagree, here.

Philippians 3

4 although I once had confidence in the flesh too. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness that is in the law, blameless.
7 But everything that was a gain to me, I have considered to be a loss because of Christ.
8 More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth (Skabala) , so that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ-the righteousness from God based on faith.