Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

[BNR32FAN]

So your logic is that since Paul is writing the believers in Ephesus and since he speaks of "sons of disobedience" therefore the believers in Ephesus were sons of disobedience! Good to exercise some basic reading comprehension skills where reading scripture. At least do that!

No because he says

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul is explaining why these sinful ways of life must not be named among them.

 

[bcbsr]

no one receives salvation until they either die or Jesus’ second coming.

In contrast Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 It's a done deal.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved

1John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

So. Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Is a believer saved today if they stumble into adultery for a week, or if they stumble into lying for a few days? If they are saved by doing sins on occasion, then how is justifying a little bit of evil different than justifying lots of evil or sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I see grace, salvation, and the gift as all being one who is the person of Jesus Christ.
He that has the Son, has life, and He that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).
For Jesus was full of grace and truth (John 1:14). Jesus is the gift. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16).

Anyways, believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too.

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4. I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.

 

[sculleywr]

Oh, so FAKE FAITH is your proclamation. That is quite the ACCUSATION of quite a large volume of people.

What is the word for "Accusation" in scripture?

Hey Sculleywr..... You show me your "Faith", and I'll show you the Work's my Faith has produced.

What's the difference in the rhetoric?

One group takes the credit for themselves. The other Group gives all Glory to God.

Romans 4:1-6

The faith which is proposed to be saving in Sola Fide is faith which is without works. That is fake faith. Faith without works is useless and dead and has no saving power. Obedience to God IS faith. It is works of the LAW which Paul was railing against. Considering that there are many good deeds which are doable that aren't mentioned by name in the law, there is therefore a wide array of works which might be doable.

The fact is that I have no problem with Romans ANYTHING. You, however, have a problem with Romans 2, James 2 (which you refuse to take the way it was written no matter how many times you lie to yourself about that fact), Luke 10, Matthew 25, etc.

I take no credit for my works because they didn't come from me. You haven't even gotten to the meat of the discussion. You haven't asked which works save because you assume falsely that it is works of the Mosaic Law. It isn't.

 

[Grip Docility]

No because he says

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul is explaining why these sinful ways of life must not be named among them.

The idea of being "sinless" in these rundown, dilapidated, Maggot bound bodies of Death... is always romantic to me. I mean, I "DESIRE" to "PLEASE" God.

But there is a problem. I can stare any man or woman down, in honesty, express that I am a sinful man, then ask them if they are without sin. The eye contact is always revealing.

For me, the Gospel magnified my knowledge of sin in my life. It made the weight so unbearable, I had to give it all to Jesus.

We are victors over sin, through Jesus, but I am certain that Every Human Being, Alive is in PERPETUAL need of Jesus' Propitiation.

My point. If a person can stand next to God and not see the difference between Perfection, and Imperfection... things aren't okay.

 

[sculleywr]

righteousness is δικαιοσυνη
of which the root word, according to the lexicon is δικαιος
justfy is δικαιοω
of which the root word, according to the lexicon is δικαιος

In Greek "justify" is simply the verb form of "righteous", just like in Greek "believe" is the verb form of "faith"

Furthermore if you actually read the two passages Rom 3 and Rom 10 and see how the words are used in context you wouldn't have such a misconception.

So the -soni at the end of the first doesn't mean anything? They share the same root, but one is a verb that says "to make something righteous", while the other is simply "righteousness". righteousness is a state of being. Justifying is a verb. They serve different functions and have different meanings. Like dead and kill.

 

[bcbsr]

So. Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Is a believer saved today if they stumble into adultery for a week, or if they stumble into lying for a few days? If they are saved by doing sins on occasion, then how is justifying a little bit of evil different than justifying lots of evil or sin?

First of all "Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39 The New Covenant was not in effect until Acts chapter 2. So while David and Abraham were justified by faith apart from works (which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4), they were not "Christians". They were not born of God. So their behavior cannot be compare to those of us who have been born of God (Wesley makes that error), as described in 1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

In David's situation it simply states 2Sa 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die." No conditions mentioned.

 

[Grip Docility]

The faith which is proposed to be saving in Sola Fide is faith which is without works. That is fake faith. Faith without works is useless and dead and has no saving power. Obedience to God IS faith. It is works of the LAW which Paul was railing against. Considering that there are many good deeds which are doable that aren't mentioned by name in the law, there is therefore a wide array of works which might be doable.

The fact is that I have no problem with Romans ANYTHING. You, however, have a problem with Romans 2, James 2 (which you refuse to take the way it was written no matter how many times you lie to yourself about that fact), Luke 10, Matthew 25, etc.

I take no credit for my works because they didn't come from me. You haven't even gotten to the meat of the discussion. You haven't asked which works save because you assume falsely that it is works of the Mosaic Law. It isn't.

I have indeed.

Is it your works that save you, or is it Jesus.

It's one or the other. It's certainly not both.

Who SAVES you?

 

[Grip Docility]

So the -soni at the end of the first doesn't mean anything? They share the same root, but one is a verb that says "to make something righteous", while the other is simply "righteousness". righteousness is a state of being. Justifying is a verb. They serve different functions and have different meanings. Like dead and kill.

We can only be Saved, when we acknowledge it is God's Righteousness that saves us. To say our own "Righteousness" saves us in any form or fashion is preposterous, arrogant and hypocritical.

NO THING is hidden from the Spirit of God. NO THING. If honesty is employed... we are beggars fed a feast.

Do you BELIEVE?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4.

Paul was not referring to "works of faith" that follow God's saving grace. Paul was fighting against "Works ALONE Salvationism" because of the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." This is the context of Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians.

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

The Jerusalem Counsel clarifies this heresy of Circumcision Salvationism:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”...................................................................................................................................
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.

Hmmm, not sure you were getting what I was trying to say. I am not saying that mercy or grace is irrevocable after a believer is saved by God's grace. I surely believe a Christian can restore their relationship with God via confession of their sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Psalms 51) (Proverbs 28:13). I am saying that the gift of Jesus Himself who has offered life within Himself is not going to be taken back on God changing His mind. This is not equate with a believer later temporarily falling away into spiritual death like the prodigal son did.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4. I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.

Also, when we read James 2:24, there are two parts to that verse. Being justified by works of faith, and being justified by faith (belief). If the verse is talking about being justified by works before men, then we must also take the next part of the verse as being justified by men, too. Meaning, are we justified by faith in men? Surely not. In Matthew 25:23, we learn that the servant who was faithful over a little was told that he could enter the kingdom and he would be able to rule over much. In Matthew 25:30, Jesus says that the unprofitable servant would be cast into outer darkness. Surely faithfulness here in the Parable of the Talents was involving some kind of works that they were doing.

Romans 4 is dealing with the process of Justification without works when a person first gets saved because Paul was fighting against those who thought they had to be circumcised FIRST in order to be saved. Read the chapter again, and take special notice about his reference to circumcision in that chapter.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You're Protestant. Just because you say you aren't doesn't mean you aren't. The invisible Church? A Protestant doctrine that came out of the Radical Reformation practice of Pietism. Sola Fide? A Protestant Dogma.

You hold to the central tenets of the Protestant Reformation. Ergo, you are Protestant.

Just came upon this.
Just want to say that I know for sure that the CC also believe in the "invisible church"...if by that we mean the Body of Christ.

There are many denominations, but there is only one body of Christ..those that believe in Him and are disciples make up the BOC.

I'll go further and say that in Catholicism there are 3 "churches"....
The church militant --- here on this earth.
The church penitent --- those in purgatory
The church triumphant --- those in heaven

This is also called The Communion of Saints.

source: Lumen Gentium

The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is'.

 

[bcbsr]

So the -soni at the end of the first doesn't mean anything? They share the same root, but one is a verb that says "to make something righteous", while the other is simply "righteousness". righteousness is a state of being. Justifying is a verb. They serve different functions and have different meanings. Like dead and kill.

Rom 3:21a But now a righteousness from God, apart from law,

The righteous standing we who have been born of God have is apart from issues of law. It's apart from issues of how well one complies with commands. It's by trusting in Jesus, not trusting in oneself, one's own works, one's own compliance to "law", be the law of Moses or the law of Christ.

And that faith sets us apart from you salvation-by-works Christians on the essential issue as to what one must do to be saved. "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We still disagree on works for salvation. I still believe your interpretation of James directly contradicts Paul in Romans 4. I do however see your point about Jesus being the gift and John 15 certainly says we can be cut off from the vine which is Christ. But because the scriptures say grace is a gift and God’s gifts are irrevocable I can’t believe that grace is revocable. If that were so there could be no salvation for those who backslide and later repent.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation."
Ephesians 2:1 talks about how we were quickened. This quickening happens one time.
Ephesians 2:8 talks about God's grace as a gift.
Gifts are received one time.
Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith.
Again, that is "Initial Salvation." This is not of works like with those who thought during that time that they had to be circumcised FIRST in order to be saved.

Ephesians 2:9 is talking about a Man Directed Work because it is referring to the kind of work that a man would BOAST in themselves over doing it.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works done through the believer that a person in Christ is created to do. They are not optional. Believers must do these works after they are saved by God's grace. Hence, why Paul mentions it AFTER one is saved by God's grace through faith without works.

 

[Grip Docility]

Just came upon this.
Just want to say that I know for sure that the CC also believe in the "invisible church"...if by that we mean the Body of Christ.

There are many denominations, but there is only one body of Christ..those that believe in Him and are disciples make up the BOC.

I'll go further and say that in Catholicism there are 3 "churches"....
The church militant --- here on this earth.
The church penitent --- those in purgatory
The church triumphant --- those in heaven

This is also called The Communion of Saints.

source: Lumen Gentium

The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is'.

Sister... What you call "Purgatory", I call Sheol... and We Agree on this to my Joy! I believe Romans 11 is the key to this difficult teaching that you have set forth! Ha! Who'd have thunk it?

Amen!

I'm issuing a FULL AGREE with you on this, without question!

Why would there be a Judgment at the end of it all, for those dead "not in Christ'.. if actual deliberation isn't to take place?

The conflation of the lake of fire, that is struck at the close of all things, and the place of the dead get conflated, by many theologies!

Furthermore, there is a specific place of binding for some of the rebellious Angels, according to Jude.

Ha! It's kind of nice to know someone shares in my studied insanity!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rom 3:21a But now a righteousness from God, apart from law,

The righteous standing we who have been born of God have is apart from issues of law. It's apart from issues of how well one complies with commands. It's by trusting in Jesus, not trusting in oneself, one's own works, one's own compliance to "law", be the law of Moses or the law of Christ.

And that faith sets us apart from you salvation-by-works Christians on the essential issue as to what one must do to be saved. "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Acts 16:30,31

Which Law?
The law that says for you to sacrifice animals?
Or the laws of Jesus and His followers under the New Covenant?
For which Law do you obey today?
Do you obey no laws whatsoever?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sister... What you call "Purgatory", I call Sheol... and We Agree on this to my Joy! I believe Romans 11 is the key to this difficult teaching that you have set forth! Ha! Who'd have thunk it?

Amen!

I'm issuing a FULL AGREE with you on this, without question!

Why would there be a Judgment at the end of it all, for those dead "not in Christ'.. if actual deliberation isn't to take place?

Wait. Before celebrating, let's make sure what you understand sheoul to be....

I hope you remember that I don't agree with all catholic doctrine.

Purgatory, as you may know, is a place the CC believes almost everyone goes since they will not be perfectly sanctified before death and no sin shall enter into heaven (Revelation), so they believe one has to be purified before entering.

What is sheoul to you? (It has different meanings).

 

[Shimokita]

We're talking about "in order to be saved". You advocate justification by compliance to law, a performance based salvation, which is salvation by works. Those of us who believe the gospel advocate "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Have been saved a person is born of God which affects his behavior such that there doesn't exist one born of God who continues to live in sin. Why? "because he has been born of God".

As I said, typically salvation by works Christians append all the commands in the New Testament with "in order to be saved". Much like the Pharisees of old, they don't believe the gospel, they believe justification by law.

A person is saved by faith, apart from works, just as Scripture states, friend. The question is whether that salvation can thereafter be forfeited. You consider yourself saved, and you know perfectly well that if you go out raping and killing people tomorrow, and do not repent, you will forfeit your inheritance just as St. Paul teaches throughout the New Testament.

 

[Grip Docility]

Wait. Before celebrating, let's make sure what you understand sheoul to be....

I hope you remember that I don't agree with all catholic doctrine.

Purgatory, as you may know, is a place the CC believes almost everyone goes since they will not be perfectly sanctified before death and no sin shall enter into heaven (Revelation), so they believe one has to be purified before entering.

What is sheoul to you? (It has different meanings).

Sheol to me is the place where the Dead, who are not in Christ, go. These souls await the final day of Judgment... and will be either hardened against God, or Desperate for God, when the realm of the Dead is poured forth, as Revelation states.

Slightly different... but there's a striking similarity, in the same light. Do we differ slightly? Sure.

Enough to argue and duke it out over? Most certainly not!