Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

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Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."


Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.
 

GodsGrace101

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Why do you continue to propagate a non-truth?

I haven't read your entire O.P. because it's the same as all your other O.P.'s...

But this caught my eye, and you repeat this constantly and it is not true.

How could YOU know how every other Christian feels?

You cannot.

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

Since you believe that one's DOCTRINE could cause him to be disqualified, I certainly hope YOU have your doctrine 100% correct.
 
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Grip Docility

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Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."


Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

Why do you continue to propagate a non-truth?

I haven't read your entire O.P. because it's the same as all your other O.P.'s...

But this caught my eye, and you repeat this constantly and it is not true.

How could YOU know how every other Christian feels?

You cannot.

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

Since you believe that one's DOCTRINE could cause him to be disqualified, I certainly hope YOU have your doctrine 100% correct.

Believe or not, I agree with both of you.

I think there is a concern for people propagating Salvation by Works teachings, not only because they can harm new believers, but because they aren’t grasping the Love and Mercy they desire so much!

I wish all of Christ’s Love and blessings to both of you.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Believe or not, I agree with both of you.

I think there is a concern for people propagating Salvation by Works teachings, not only because they can harm new believers, but because they aren’t grasping the Love and Mercy they desire so much!

I wish all of Christ’s Love and blessings to both of you.
You're a very nice person GD.

I'll prove to you that you believe in works.

Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself.
This is what YOU do.
So, you're doing a work for God.
What do you think a work is but obeying what God wants?

I've NEVER said salvation is by works.
Salvation is by faith alone.
Sanctification is by works...
How do you think saying this could harm a new believer if it's what JESUS taught?

Didn't Jesus obey God and didn't He teach us to do the same as He did?
How is obeying God harmful to new believers?
 
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Grip Docility

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You're a very nice person GD.

I'll prove to you that you believe in works.

Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself.
This is what YOU do.
So, you're doing a work for God.
What do you think a work is but obeying what God wants?

I've NEVER said salvation is by works.
Salvation is by faith alone.
Sanctification is by works...
How do you think saying this could harm a new believer if it's what JESUS taught?

Didn't Jesus obey God and didn't He teach us to do the same as He did?
How is obeying God harmful to new believers?

I will be candid. Love is a work of the Holy Spirit. Frustrating Grace is accomplished by attempting to accomplish the Works Of God in the Flesh.

I will hold fast that my only work is Belief. True Belief, comes from the Father, recognizing my belief in the Son.

If a person becomes unloving that is a sibling... I extend grace... and trust the Holy Spirit to impart that Fruit.

As for patience... Being someone that prayed for it... I warn all that true patience is to suffer physical and emotional pain, for an extended amount of time, and maintain composure. It is truly LongSuffering.

I appreciate how you have worded this.

I will simply say this. If a sinful man like me can be equipped by God, Alone, to produce fruit and seed the Gospel... Anyone can do it! :D
 
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Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

(1)
It has not been shown where one can be saved void of obedience to the will of God, that is, be saved without doing God's righteousness:

(2)
1 John 3:10 whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God
Acts 10:35 those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God.
John 6:27 work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life


Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:9 cannot contradict all the verses that require obedience to the will of God, that is, contradict all the verse that require man working God's righteousness.

Rom 4:5, "worketh not" refers to works of the OT law, Abraham was one who was justified by NOT flawlessly keeping the OT law of Moses by justified by an obedient belief, Hebrews 11:8,17).

Ephesians 2:9 "not of works" eliminates works of merit, if one could merit salvation he would have something to boast about.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and (a) going about to establish their own righteousness, have not (b) submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul laments over his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, who were lost. In verse 3 Paul tells us why they were lost and what they failed to do to be saved. In this one verse Paul lists two different types of works:

a) going about to establish their own righteousness
b) submitting to God's righteousness/commands

Work (a) does not save, trying to save themselves by their own righteousness while work (b) does save in submitting/obeying the righteousness of God, obey God's commands (Psalms 119:172).

Conclusion from Romans 10:3-- all works are not the same, some works will NOT save while obedience to the will of God will save. Romans 4:5 nor Eph 2:9 cannot exclude obedience to the will of God else one creates logical contradictions among Bible verses.



(3)

Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned/merited, yet it is a conditional gift that conditionally requires obedience to the will of God, that is, working God's righteousness therefore does not earn/merit the free gift.

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

The saving of Noah's house was by God's grace, yet God conditionally required Noah to do the obedient work in building the ark to receive grace. Therefore the work in building the ark did not earn the saving of Noah's house but a necessary condition God placed upon HIs free gift of grace.


(4)
I have never argued one can be justified by the OT law of Moses. But one is justified (freed from sin) by obeying from the heart that form of doctrine (NT gospel) Romans 6:17-18.

The op posted "Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it."

Can the OP show one example from the NT gospel of one being saved while remaining disobedient, defiant in obeying God's will?

In Acts 9, Saul was defiant/disobedient to the will of God and was therefore lost due to his sinful disobedience, yet not saved until he obeyed the will of God, (Acts 9:6 cf Acts 22:16)
 
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GodsGrace101

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I will be candid. Love is a work of the Holy Spirit. Frustrating Grace is accomplished by attempting to accomplish the Works Of God in the Flesh.

I will hold fast that my only work is Belief. True Belief, comes from the Father, recognizing my belief in the Son.

If a person becomes unloving that is a sibling... I extend grace... and trust the Holy Spirit to impart that Fruit.

As for patience... Being someone that prayed for it... I warn all that true patience is to suffer physical and emotional pain, for an extended amount of time, and maintain composure. It is truly LongSuffering.

I appreciate how you have worded this.

I will simply say this. If a sinful man like me can be equipped by God, Alone, to produce fruit and seed the Gospel... Anyone can do it! :D
I agree with you 100% about patience. I can say this from personal experience.

As to works...yes, I do think we have works to do.
I could post a whole list of verse which speak about doing good deeds. Also, we read about the teachings of Christ..as in 2 John 1:9 for instance.
What teachings do we think these are?

Also, I don't know any denomination that believes this is done with our strength, but we do what we do with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes it's terminology that causes a problem.
I don't know any Christian that loves the Lord that does not do works.
 
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Grip Docility

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I agree with you 100% about patience. I can say this from personal experience.

As to works...yes, I do think we have works to do.
I could post a whole list of verse which speak about doing good deeds. Also, we read about the teachings of Christ..as in 2 John 1:9 for instance.
What teachings do we think these are?

Also, I don't know any denomination that believes this is done with our strength, but we do what we do with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes it's terminology that causes a problem.
I don't know any Christian that loves the Lord that does not do works.

I, personally, state that I do this (Exodus 14:14) and He takes care of all the rest. I maintain that my only work is (Initial Belief)... as He's furnished the rest.

I also want to be clear... in the flesh, I still fail! I struggle, but I attempt to Exodus 14:14 that, too.

In all honesty and the Love of Christ...
 
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GodsGrace101

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I, personally, state that I do this (Exodus 14:14) and He takes care of all the rest. I maintain that my only work is (Initial Belief)... as He's furnished the rest.

I also want to be clear... in the flesh, I still fail! I struggle, but I attempt to Exodus 14:14 that, too.

In all honesty and the Love of Christ...
Oh yes.
We all fail.
But God sees the heart.
 
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As to works...yes, I do think we have works to do.
The issue is not whether you should do works, but rather whether you have to do works in order to be saved.

If a person views salvation as being contingent upon his ongoing performance then he's a salvation-by-works Christian.
 
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GodsGrace101

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The issue is not whether you should do works, but rather whether you have to do works in order to be saved.

If a person views salvation as being contingent upon his ongoing performance then he's a salvation-by-works Christian.
Yes!
Isn't it wonderful that we know God and are allowed to do His work here on earth.

Just think what the world would be like without those that want to be a light for others in which to see God, and to be those that salt the earth so its true flavor can be savored.

Amen.
 
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GodsGrace101

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(1)
It has not been shown where one can be saved void of obedience to the will of God, that is, be saved without doing God's righteousness:

(2)
1 John 3:10 whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God
Acts 10:35 those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God.
John 6:27 work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life


Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:9 cannot contradict all the verses that require obedience to the will of God, that is, contradict all the verse that require man working God's righteousness.

Rom 4:5, "worketh not" refers to works of the OT law, Abraham was one who was justified by NOT flawlessly keeping the OT law of Moses by justified by an obedient belief, Hebrews 11:8,17).

Ephesians 2:9 "not of works" eliminates works of merit, if one could merit salvation he would have something to boast about.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and (a) going about to establish their own righteousness, have not (b) submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul laments over his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, who were lost. In verse 3 Paul tells us why they were lost and what they failed to do to be saved. In this one verse Paul lists two different types of works:

a) going about to establish their own righteousness
b) submitting to God's righteousness/commands

Work (a) does not save, trying to save themselves by their own righteousness while work (b) does save in submitting/obeying the righteousness of God, obey God's commands (Psalms 119:172).

Conclusion from Romans 10:3-- all works are not the same, some works will NOT save while obedience to the will of God will save. Romans 4:5 nor Eph 2:9 cannot exclude obedience to the will of God else one creates logical contradictions among Bible verses.



(3)

Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned/merited, yet it is a conditional gift that conditionally requires obedience to the will of God, that is, working God's righteousness therefore does not earn/merit the free gift.

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

The saving of Noah's house was by God's grace, yet God conditionally required Noah to do the obedient work in building the ark to receive grace. Therefore the work in building the ark did not earn the saving of Noah's house but a necessary condition God placed upon HIs free gift of grace.


(4)
I have never argued one can be justified by the OT law of Moses. But one is justified (freed from sin) by obeying from the heart that form of doctrine (NT gospel) Romans 6:17-18.

The op posted "Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it."

Can the OP show one example from the NT gospel of one being saved while remaining disobedient, defiant in obeying God's will?

In Acts 9, Saul was defiant/disobedient to the will of God and was therefore lost due to his sinful disobedience, yet not saved until he obeyed the will of God, (Acts 9:6 cf Acts 22:16)
(1)
It has not been shown where one can be saved void of obedience to the will of God, that is, be saved without doing God's righteousness:

(2)
1 John 3:10 whosoever continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God
Acts 10:35 those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God.
John 6:27 work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life


Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:9 cannot contradict all the verses that require obedience to the will of God, that is, contradict all the verse that require man working God's righteousness.

Rom 4:5, "worketh not" refers to works of the OT law, Abraham was one who was justified by NOT flawlessly keeping the OT law of Moses by justified by an obedient belief, Hebrews 11:8,17).

Ephesians 2:9 "not of works" eliminates works of merit, if one could merit salvation he would have something to boast about.

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and (a) going about to establish their own righteousness, have not (b) submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Paul laments over his brethren in the flesh, the Jews, who were lost. In verse 3 Paul tells us why they were lost and what they failed to do to be saved. In this one verse Paul lists two different types of works:

a) going about to establish their own righteousness
b) submitting to God's righteousness/commands

Work (a) does not save, trying to save themselves by their own righteousness while work (b) does save in submitting/obeying the righteousness of God, obey God's commands (Psalms 119:172).

Conclusion from Romans 10:3-- all works are not the same, some works will NOT save while obedience to the will of God will save. Romans 4:5 nor Eph 2:9 cannot exclude obedience to the will of God else one creates logical contradictions among Bible verses.



(3)

Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned/merited, yet it is a conditional gift that conditionally requires obedience to the will of God, that is, working God's righteousness therefore does not earn/merit the free gift.

Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

The saving of Noah's house was by God's grace, yet God conditionally required Noah to do the obedient work in building the ark to receive grace. Therefore the work in building the ark did not earn the saving of Noah's house but a necessary condition God placed upon HIs free gift of grace.


(4)
I have never argued one can be justified by the OT law of Moses. But one is justified (freed from sin) by obeying from the heart that form of doctrine (NT gospel) Romans 6:17-18.

The op posted "Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it."

Can the OP show one example from the NT gospel of one being saved while remaining disobedient, defiant in obeying God's will?

In Acts 9, Saul was defiant/disobedient to the will of God and was therefore lost due to his sinful disobedience, yet not saved until he obeyed the will of God, (Acts 9:6 cf Acts 22:16)
This is a great post.

I'd like to add two thoughts.

1. Paul spoke of two different types of works.
One is works under the law of the Torah.
These no longer save.

Then there are the works of faith found in
Romans 1:5
Romans 16:26

2. Obedience of faith =. Works of obedience
No works of obedience. =. No faith


If we trust jesus, we obey Him.
If we don't obey.... No trust.
No trust..... No faith.
No faith....no works.

Ending in no salvation.
John 14:15
 
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sculleywr

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Those who believe that we shouldn't take any of the depictions of the Judgment Seat seriously according to their plain meaning have problems. You have to ignore whole swaths of Scripture and butcher Romans beyond recognition in order to preach it. Just ignore Romans 2, Matthew 25, Luke 10, James 2, and any other passage that connects works to eternal life and lack of works to eternal damnation. Use your five cherry picked verses and go home.

If your faith can fit onto a tract, it's too small
 
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bcbsr

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Those who believe that we shouldn't take any of the depictions of the Judgment Seat seriously according to their plain meaning have problems. You have to ignore whole swaths of Scripture and butcher Romans beyond recognition in order to preach it. Just ignore Romans 2, Matthew 25, Luke 10, James 2, and any other passage that connects works to eternal life and lack of works to eternal damnation. Use your five cherry picked verses and go home.

If your faith can fit onto a tract, it's too small
Eastern Orthodox - no surprise you would take issue with the gospel of grace. So what is it about those passages that make you believe in salvation by works while ignoring other passages that make salvation a matter of faith apart from issues of performance?
 
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Eastern Orthodox - no surprise you would take issue with the gospel of grace. So what is it about those passages that make you believe in salvation by works while ignoring other passages that make salvation a matter of faith apart from issues of performance?

They don't make it apart from issues of how you live. Look at the only depictions of the judgement that tell us what God is judging according to. Matthew 25 and Romans 2. In Matthew, the Lord says plainly why He is bringing them into heaven:

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

In Romans 2, Paul tells us that the Lord renders unto each man ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS. To those who persist in doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality, He gives eternal life.

In Luke 10, Jesus is asked the question directly. "How do I obtain eternal life?" and His answer is to live according to the two greatest commandments in the Scripture: Love God and love your neighbor.

In James 2, James says that there is a man who has real faith, but no works. He asks the question "Can faith save him?" and after his examples, his answer is "we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

In John 15, Jesus says that the branches on the vine are truly Christians in Christ, but then follows that with a warning that if they stopped bearing fruit, the vineyard keeper would come and cut them off and cast them into the fire.

In Matthew 16, Christ says that in order to be His disciple, you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him.

I could keep going and going and going showing passages of all sizes. This isn't denying Grace. This is denying the easy believism lazy faith of a false teaching that is contrary even to the plain meaning of the Scripture.

However, I will say that the reason that you have such a hard time is because you mean something completely different when you say salvation as compared to what I mean and what Orthodoxy teaches.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Eastern Orthodox - no surprise you would take issue with the gospel of grace. So what is it about those passages that make you believe in salvation by works while ignoring other passages that make salvation a matter of faith apart from issues of performance?
The gospel of grace?
Those who are against obedience to God make grace out to be cheap and greasy...

Jesus paid a hefty price to give us this grace....
and what is Grace? Books are written on it.

Does this deny OUR part in our own salvation?
Jesus said IT IS FINISHED.
HIS part is finished...

What is our part?
ONLY believing?

What does it mean to believe anyway?

It simply means to trust and to follow.

THE MEANING OF THE WORD
In Greek, the root word from which we get 'faith, the noun is PISTIS, and 'believe', the verb is PISTUEO.

FAITH - PISTIS means faith, belief, firm persuasion, assurance, firm conviction, faithfulness.

BELIEVE - PISTUEO - to trust in and rely upon, commit to the charge of, confide in, have a mental persuasion.

It is the act whereby a person lays hold of God's resources, becomes obedient to what He has prescribed and putting aside all self interest and self-reliance, trusts Him completely. It is an unqualified surrender of the whole of one's being in dependence upon Him. It is wholly trusting and relying upon Him for all things. It is not just mental assent to the facts and realities of truth, it must come from a deep inner conviction. - the demons also believe - James 2:19

"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding" Proverbs 3:5

"He that trusts in his own heart is a fool" Proverbs 28:26

..........

Commitment of the Will
The will of a person needs to be engaged to follow through and implement their belief into action. Belief needs to go from the mind through the heart and activate the will to take hold of what has been understood and responded to, and make it part of one's life. This then in its outworking, becomes obedience to the 'Word'. The scriptures speak of "obedience to the faith" (Romans 1: 5), this is where faith has had its complete outworking.

"The revelation of the mystery..... .... is made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" Romans 16:25,26


source: Hebrew Roots/The original foundation/Faith - Wikibooks, open books for an open world
 
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They don't make it apart from issues of how you live. Look at the only depictions of the judgement that tell us what God is judging according to. Matthew 25 and Romans 2. In Matthew, the Lord says plainly why He is bringing them into heaven:

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

In Romans 2, Paul tells us that the Lord renders unto each man ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS. To those who persist in doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality, He gives eternal life.

In Luke 10, Jesus is asked the question directly. "How do I obtain eternal life?" and His answer is to live according to the two greatest commandments in the Scripture: Love God and love your neighbor.

In James 2, James says that there is a man who has real faith, but no works. He asks the question "Can faith save him?" and after his examples, his answer is "we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

In John 15, Jesus says that the branches on the vine are truly Christians in Christ, but then follows that with a warning that if they stopped bearing fruit, the vineyard keeper would come and cut them off and cast them into the fire.

In Matthew 16, Christ says that in order to be His disciple, you must deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him.

I could keep going and going and going showing passages of all sizes. This isn't denying Grace. This is denying the easy believism lazy faith of a false teaching that is contrary even to the plain meaning of the Scripture.

However, I will say that the reason that you have such a hard time is because you mean something completely different when you say salvation as compared to what I mean and what Orthodoxy teaches.
Concerning Mt 25 your misconstruing of that passage is of category 3 mentioned in the OP "Confusing Cause and Effect." Notice in Mt 25 that there were only two types of people - sheep or goat. There was no spectrum of people as salvation-by-works Christians read into the passage whereby one's fate is determined based on a relative measure of their behavior. Rather they were already separated into the saved/unsaved categories based upon what they were, sheep or goats.

The correlation between what they were and what they did was due to their nature. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." Jer 13:23 Consequently under the New Covenant, those who have come to belief the gospel of grace are given a new nature. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 Being born of God changes one's nature producing an inevitable affect upon their behavior. This as opposed to the salvation by works theology whereby one changes their behavior in order to be saved. Works are an effect, not a cause of salvation.

As for Romans 2 and Luke 10, I already dealt with those in the OP under #1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification.

As for James 2 I have the same view as Martin Luther, which you can view at Intro to James

As for Mt 16:25 about taking up one's cross, the cross the salvation by works Christians refuse to bear is to abandon their salvation-by-works soteriology, like Jesus they need to nail that to the cross "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Col 2:14
 
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GodsGrace101

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Concerning Mt 25 your misconstruing of that passage is of category 3 mentioned in the OP "Confusing Cause and Effect." Notice in Mt 25 that there were only two types of people - sheep or goat. There was no spectrum of people as salvation-by-works Christians read into the passage whereby one's fate is determined based on a relative measure of their behavior. Rather they were already separated into the saved/unsaved categories based upon what they were, sheep or goats.

The correlation between what they were and what they did was due to their nature. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." Jer 13:23 Consequently under the New Covenant, those who have come to belief the gospel of grace are given a new nature. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 Being born of God changes one's nature producing an inevitable affect upon their behavior. This as opposed to the salvation by works theology whereby one changes their behavior in order to be saved. Works are an effect, not a cause of salvation.

As for Romans 2 and Luke 10, I already dealt with those in the OP under #1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification.

As for James 2 I have the same view as Martin Luther, which you can view at Intro to James

As for Mt 16:25 about taking up one's cross, the cross the salvation by works Christians refuse to bear is to abandon their salvation-by-works soteriology, like Jesus they need to nail that to the cross "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Col 2:14
Problem is B, Jesus didn't mention the word saved anywhere in Mathew 25.

YOU are adding to scripture, which is incorrect exegesis.

Jesus only mentioned who DID and who DID NOT.
Those who obeyed went one way and those who did not obey went another way.
 
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Concerning Mt 25 your misconstruing of that passage is of category 3 mentioned in the OP "Confusing Cause and Effect." Notice in Mt 25 that there were only two types of people - sheep or goat. There was no spectrum of people as salvation-by-works Christians read into the passage whereby one's fate is determined based on a relative measure of their behavior. Rather they were already separated into the saved/unsaved categories based upon what they were, sheep or goats.

The correlation between what they were and what they did was due to their nature. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." Jer 13:23 Consequently under the New Covenant, those who have come to belief the gospel of grace are given a new nature. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 Being born of God changes one's nature producing an inevitable affect upon their behavior. This as opposed to the salvation by works theology whereby one changes their behavior in order to be saved. Works are an effect, not a cause of salvation.

As for Romans 2 and Luke 10, I already dealt with those in the OP under #1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification.

As for James 2 I have the same view as Martin Luther, which you can view at Intro to James

As for Mt 16:25 about taking up one's cross, the cross the salvation by works Christians refuse to bear is to abandon their salvation-by-works soteriology, like Jesus they need to nail that to the cross "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Col 2:14

Seriously? Jesus SAYS it is BECAUSE they fed the hungry. If you can't see the FOR and understand the meaning of the FOR in the text, let's take a look at the Greek word and see what it means:

γάρ gár, gar; a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):—and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

So the thing which follows the "gar" is the reason God is bringing them into heaven. End of discussion. You have committed error three in the OP. You have replaced the reason that Christ said He gave them eternal life with something that is more convenient and comfortable to scratching your ears instead of how every person for the first 1600 years of Christianity understood it. Apparently all Christians before Luther and Calvin were boneheaded idiots, right?

And no. You did not deal with them in OP #1, because Paul did not say that was Old Covenant. Every person is entered into eternal life ACCORDING TO THE SAME STANDARD, for there is no partiality with God. It says in Romans two that the Lord renders unto EVERY man, not just the Jews before the judgment. In fact, to make sure that no man thought that he was exempt from this standard, Paul said that it was to the Jew first AND ALSO TO THE GREEK. Every person, man, woman, child, will be judged according to the same standard, because God is a JUST God. There is not a difference in salvation between us and David. We are all saved according to a LIVING faith. Not a dead faith. You believe in dead faith salvation.
 
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