Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

[bcbsr]

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of a covenant like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

Gal 3
The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In contrast to that you believe in justification by law. Not by the law of Moses, but by a law you tinker together containing much of the law of Moses. It's the same thing. You miss the concept. In Genesis 15:5 God gave Abraham a promise. In Gen 15:6 Abraham believed the promise, there being no intervening work on Abraham's part between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6 and thus Paul uses that fact in Romans 4 to prove that justification is by faith apart from works - yes even apart from works of faith.

In you unbelief you simply modify this covenant of faith by adding your own law to it and claiming that while one must comply to your law in order to be save. The only difference between you and the sect of the Circumcision is which set of regulations you're talking about.

Do you even live up to the standards of your "law"? How many times have you lost your salvation failing to live up to your "law? Or does your law simply have low enough standards that you never fail to do it perfectly? Or do you simply overlook, feigning ignorance about how you have fallen short of your "law". If you law says that you must love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strengthen, have there been instances in your life where you gave 90% effort? Or is that not part of your "law"?
[/QUOTE]

 

[bcbsr]

Actually, yes, he can lose the car altogether.

Scripture says plainly that we must obey Christ. If there is not an eternal consequence of disobedience, then those commands are nothing more than suggestions. Go ahead and live the life of Hitler. Your magic words did everything you need.

Then it wasn't a "free gift". He didn't own it. I've had people give me what they claim were "gifts", but later they'll say that they expected me to do this or that with it. I tell them, when you gave it to me you gave me ownership. Otherwise you can't claim it's a gift, and certainly not a "free gift". You don't believe that eternal life is a free gift. And as such you're an unbeliever.

As for the rest of your comment it's consistent with point #2 of the OP as to ways in which salvation by works Christians, such as yourself, misconstrue scripture 2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved".

As for the Hitler comment, which again is typical of slanderous accusations those of us who believe the gospel have to endure, it is also written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 So much as you instruct us to live a sinful life, sorry but we who have been born of God are not capable of doing so.

 

[bcbsr]

And yet, that is a non sequitur. Salvation is by grace. But God commanded us to follow Him. There isn't a single promise God has made that did not make requirements of those who it was given to. The issue here is that you are interpreting Romans 4 as if Romans 2 does not exist.

Protestants want to obligate God into doing something that goes against what He said He would do, which is to judge ALL men according to their actions.

Thanks for providing your example how salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture as described in the OP. This particular case is covered in #2. 2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Apparently salvation by works Christians can't imagine doing anything right unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation if they fail to do so, which is, as we all should know, is justification by law.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10 Though they simply amend this changing the Law of Moses into some other law which they parse together, much of which contains - You guess it - the laws of Moses. Same thing!

 

[sculleywr]

Then it wasn't a "free gift". He didn't own it. I've had people give me what they claim were "gifts", but later they'll say that they expected me to do this or that with it. I tell them, when you gave it to me you gave me ownership. Otherwise you can't claim it's a gift, and certainly not a "free gift". You don't believe that eternal life is a free gift. And as such you're an unbeliever.

As for the rest of your comment it's consistent with point #2 of the OP as to ways in which salvation by works Christians, such as yourself, misconstrue scripture 2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved".

As for the Hitler comment, which again is typical of slanderous accusations those of us who believe the gospel have to endure, it is also written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 So much as you instruct us to live a sinful life, sorry but we who have been born of God are not capable of doing so.

If you give the car away, you no longer own it. I was given my mother-in-law's old Nissan Altima five years ago. I didn't have to pay anything for the car itself. Two months ago, I sold the Nissan Altima.

It is no longer mine. but it was still a free gift.

I love how you believe that you're just a robot, though. Domo arigato.

If you cannot choose to leave, then you cannot choose to love. Love is freely given, not programmed into you and forced. Christ said point blank that branches can and will be removed from the vine if they bear no fruit. He said in that same passage that branches are Christians that are truly in the vine. You cannot be removed from the vine unless you were truly saved.

 

[sculleywr]

Thanks for providing your example how salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture as described in the OP. This particular case is covered in #2. 2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Apparently salvation by works Christians can't imagine doing anything right unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation if they fail to do so, which is, as we all should know, is justification by law.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10 Though they simply amend this changing the Law of Moses into some other law which they parse together, much of which contains - You guess it - the laws of Moses. Same thing!

Nice generalization and failure to address the point. Swing and a miss, though. It might help if you were in the same ballpark that we are playing in. I'm not talking about works of the law. Giving a meal to a person who is hungry isn't required by the Mosaic Law. Neither is giving water to the thirsty, shelter to the homeless, certainly not visiting the imprisoned.

When you're ready to deal with what was actually said, let me know. No more copying and pasting irrelevant junk.

 

[bcbsr]

Nice generalization and failure to address the point. Swing and a miss, though. It might help if you were in the same ballpark that we are playing in. I'm not talking about works of the law. Giving a meal to a person who is hungry isn't required by the Mosaic Law. Neither is giving water to the thirsty, shelter to the homeless, certainly not visiting the imprisoned.

When you're ready to deal with what was actually said, let me know. No more copying and pasting irrelevant junk.

Actually they are covered in the Law of Moses. Some specifically so, and others under the command given in Leviticus 19:18 "love your neighbor as yourself." But if you feel that Jesus added to the law of Moses, creating a new law of which people's salvation is contingent upon by complying to it, it's the same concept. Justification by law.

"For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:21,22

Abraham was given the promise in Gen 15:5 and the very next verse he believed the promise and was reckoned righteous as we believers are (as Paul states in Romans 4), there being not intervening work (not even works of faith) between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6. Let alone the fact that this was over 400 years before the Law of Moses. Justification by faith apart from law. Believe or suffer the eternal consequences of failing to live up to the law.

 

[bcbsr]

The issue here is that you are interpreting Romans 4 as if Romans 2 does not exist..

I cover that (yes, how salvation by works Christians misconstrue Romans 2) in the OP under 1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification

 

[BNR32FAN]

And yet, that is a non sequitur. Salvation is by grace. But God commanded us to follow Him. There isn't a single promise God has made that did not make requirements of those who it was given to. The issue here is that you are interpreting Romans 4 as if Romans 2 does not exist.

Protestants want to obligate God into doing something that goes against what He said He would do, which is to judge ALL men according to their actions.

They only see bits and pieces of the message. Sure many can still be saved by their message but many who are weak in faith can also be tricked into a false sense of security. I’ve seen it happen first hand in my brother who refuses to live according to God’s commandments but instead uses Jesus’ sacrifice as an excuse to live his life however he wants saying that Jesus died for my sins and that’s all I have to worry about. I’m not saying all who teach eternal security and salvation without works live this way but it does send a false message to those who are weak in faith.

 

[Shimokita]

Then it wasn't a "free gift". He didn't own it. I've had people give me what they claim were "gifts", but later they'll say that they expected me to do this or that with it. I tell them, when you gave it to me you gave me ownership. Otherwise you can't claim it's a gift, and certainly nor a "free gift". You don't believe that eternal life is a free gift. And as such you're an unbeliever.

An unbeliever? That’s not a very nice thing to say is it? And there I thought that God was the one who could see into a person’s heart. Apparently you are omniscient too.

Regardless, your logic is faulty. There are many gifts of the spirit such as the ability to heal, perform miracles, prophesize, discern spirits, speak in tongues, and the Lord expects that these gifts be used. The person who received one of these gifts did not earn it.

Secondly faith itself is a gift. If a person does not act on faith and do good works then we know that he has a dead faith or no faith at all. The Lord expects that we act on the gift of faith and evangelize the world. We do not earn the gift of faith by evangelizing the world.

One need only read the Bible my friend.

Third if your girlfriend, wife, etc. gives you a watch or a chain for Christmas, obviously she expects you to wear it. The very purpose of the gift is for you to wear it. She does not expect that you will throw it in the trash, and the fact that she would not be happy about you throwing it in the trash does not mean it is not a proper gift. Why don’t you give it a try? Throw your next birthday gift in the trash and tell the gift giver that it was not a proper gift since you cannot trash it immediately. Both you and I know that you are losing that argument, friend.

It is sad to see the lengths that people will go to just to assert that someone else is an unbeliever (implicitly trying to exalt themselves in the process by being a “real believer”).

 

[bcbsr]

An unbeliever? That’s not a very nice thing to say is it? And there I thought that God was the one who could see into a person’s heart. Apparently you are omniscient too.
...
It is sad to see the lengths that people will go to just to assert that someone else is an unbeliever (implicitly trying to exalt themselves in the process by being a “real believer”).

I was talking about belief regarding the concept of salvation being by faith apart from works. This as opposed to those view salvation as contingent upon their ongoing performance, living up to some kind of "law". I don't have to use some kind of intuition to identify them. They themselves have posted their beliefs which are contrary to the gospel of grace. Apparently you are ignorant or feign ignorance of the ongoing discussions in these threads.

 

[sculleywr]

Actually they are covered in the Law of Moses. Some specifically so, and others under the command given in Leviticus 19:18 "love your neighbor as yourself." But if you feel that Jesus added to the law of Moses, creating a new law of which people's salvation is contingent upon by complying to it, it's the same concept. Justification by law.

"For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:21,22

Abraham was given the promise in Gen 15:5 and the very next verse he believed the promise and was reckoned righteous as we believers are (as Paul states in Romans 4), there being not intervening work (not even works of faith) between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6. Let alone the fact that this was over 400 years before the Law of Moses. Justification by faith apart from law. Believe or suffer the eternal consequences of failing to live up to the law.

I cover that (yes, how salvation by works Christians misconstrue Romans 2) in the OP under 1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification

There is only one justification. Not two. As Romans says point blank, ALL men are judged according to their works, the Jew first, and also the Greek. There are not two separate salvations. There is one salvation, through Jesus Christ.

How about you stop copying and pasting things that aren't relevant? Or are you incapable of saying something on your own?

Everything in your OP is personal private interpretation of Scripture, AKA, TRADITION.

 

[sculleywr]

They only see bits and pieces of the message. Sure many can still be saved by their message but many who are weak in faith can also be tricked into a false sense of security. I’ve seen it happen first hand in my brother who refuses to live according to God’s commandments but instead uses Jesus’ sacrifice as an excuse to live his life however he wants saying that Jesus died for my sins and that’s all I have to worry about. I’m not saying all who teach eternal security and salvation without works live this way but it does send a false message to those who are weak in faith.

That is exactly my point

 

[bcbsr]

There is only one justification. Not two. As Romans says point blank, ALL men are judged according to their works, the Jew first, and also the Greek. There are not two separate salvations. There is one salvation, through Jesus Christ.

How about you stop copying and pasting things that aren't relevant? Or are you incapable of saying something on your own?

Everything in your OP is personal private interpretation of Scripture, AKA, TRADITION.

One Justification
Rom 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5, which is followed by tons of moral laws including "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18)

Another Justification - completely different from the 1st
Rom 10:6,10-13 But the righteousness that is by faith says: .. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

As for your "Orthodox Traditions"

Mr 7:9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

 

[sculleywr]

One Justification
Rom 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5, which is followed by tons of moral laws including "love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18)

Another Justification - completely different from the 1st
Rom 10:6,10-13 But the righteousness that is by faith says: .. That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

As for your "Orthodox Traditions"

Mr 7:9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Righteousness and justification are not the same thing. Notice in the second passage that "Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" is actually a quote from the OLD COVENANT. It even says "There is no difference between Jew and Gentile" right there in your own quote.

And to your statement that all tradition is sin:

II Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who leads an undisciplined life that is not in keeping with the tradition you received from us.

Scripture says very plainly that "there is no partiality with God". Your god is not just, therefore he is not God.

 

[bcbsr]

Righteousness and justification are not the same thing. .

Actually it is the same in the context of Romans 10
NOtice
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
As also earlier in Romans:
Rom 3:20 no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

As for "traditions" you yourself assume that the traditions of the Orthodox church are identical to the traditions Paul is referring to. That's your personal interpretation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is exactly my point

BSCBR has apparently put me on ignore because of our last discussion. John 15 is his kryptonite. His favorite verse is Ephesians 2:8 but he refuses to comment on Ephesians 5:1-5 where Paul warns the very same children of God mentioned in Ephesians 2 of falling into a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience. He thinks he has it all figured out but can’t explain these scriptures and how they don’t contradict what he teaches.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well let’s look at our examples. Which of the apostles didn’t do any works? None of them, they all did works. They didn’t just sit around idle, believing and doing nothing.

In fact they were all martyrs...except for John.
Great point...it started way before the Early Fathers. (up to 325 AD).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually it is the same in the context of Romans 10
NOtice
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
As also earlier in Romans:
Rom 3:20 no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

As for "traditions" you yourself assume that the traditions of the Orthodox church are identical to the traditions Paul is referring to. That's your personal interpretation.

Actually there is proof that Paul and all the apostles did in fact teach Orthodoxy going all the way back to the beginning of Christianity that refutes eternal security and salvation without works. I would also add there is not one single early church writing that supports these teachings in any church before 1500AD.

 

[sculleywr]

Actually it is the same in the context of Romans 10
NOtice
Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
As also earlier in Romans:
Rom 3:20 no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

As for "traditions" you yourself assume that the traditions of the Orthodox church are identical to the traditions Paul is referring to. That's your personal interpretation.

Dude, Words have definitions for a reason. Justify and righteous are not the same thing. They are fundamentally different words in the Greek. Dikaioo means to make righteous, not simply to declare righteous. Justification actually MAKES a person BECOME righteous. But righteousness is not, in and of itself, justification. You cannot righteous yourself to justification. But you can, through the process of justification, become righteous. Justification is not a single event. This is why imputare is a mistranslation. Justification is not a legal term. It is a theological term.

 

[Grip Docility]

You're Protestant. Just because you say you aren't doesn't mean you aren't. The invisible Church? A Protestant doctrine that came out of the Radical Reformation practice of Pietism. Sola Fide? A Protestant Dogma.

You hold to the central tenets of the Protestant Reformation. Ergo, you are Protestant.

I see. Well, I tend to get along with Catholics more than Protestants. From this post, I can see the same pride that swells within some Protestants, but for Catholicism.

Is Christ Divided?

Do you have an axe to grind with Romans 4:1-6?