Water Baptism

[Zayin7]

There is no clear, unambiguous Scripture that commands ritual water baptism as a condition of spiritual salvation!! REF: Water Baptism versus Spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ!!

John 4:23-24
But an hour is coming, and now is,
when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

John 10...Jesus the Narrow Gate and Good Shepherd
17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I GIVE eternal life to them, and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one." (in spiritual essence and nature)
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.(Blasphemy to claim Deity!)

Baptism isn't a work we do.

Spiritual Baptism is a work God does when your spirit changes at salvation. Ritual water baptism symbolizes being immersed dirty (sinful) and coming up cleansed (forgiven). E.G. John the Baptizer.

(spiritual) baptism NOW saves you...through (due to) the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Acts 2:38(NASB)...Pentecost!
38 Peter said to them,
"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

parse:===>

Repent (turn to God) , and be (spiritually) baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for (because of) the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of (be indwelt by) the Holy Ghost.

Note this ORDER:

Matthew 28: 16-20 ...The Risen Jesus' last Words?...The Great Commission
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
When they SAW Him, ( in His "spirit body" form) they WORSHIPED Him;(as God!)
but some were doubtful (of what they were SEEING!).
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, (I don't require WORSHIP...I require FOLLOWING!)

"All (spiritual) AUTHORITY has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
(a) GO therefore and
(b) MAKE DISCIPLES of ALL the NATIONS, (convert them THEN:
(c) baptizing THEM (believing followers!) in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (TRI-UNE GOD)
(d) TEACHING them to OBSERVE all that I commanded you; (example and precepts)
and lo, I am with you always (spiritually), even to "the end of the (CHURCH) age"." (age of GRACE)

Ephesians 4(NASB)...Unity of the Spirit
4 There is one body and one Spirit,
just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one (spiritual) baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.



1 Corinthians 12(NASB)...The Use of Spiritual Gifts
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized INTO one body,
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free,
and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Let's just leap to the obvious
In order to give any weight to the view you presented you had to ADD a word into the text that doesn't exist .

For me,that annulled most of your point.
The word spiritual is not in the acts account .

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A Christian <staff edit> said the following, nearing the end of his article titled, "Why isnt God using me?.....

.......And if you're wondering yes, I've been baptised in water and the holy spirit.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My thoughts ran deep when I read this. It is obvious that my Christian brother who posted that, believes as literally billions of Christians over 2,000 yrs have believed. It is also obvious that belief was taken from words that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus (A Jewish scholar) concerning being "born again":

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

For almost 70 yrs I believed that verse to be 100% true. But it is NOT. The word "and" in that verse should NOT have been included in that verse when it was translated. Take the word "and" out of their and then read the verse.

There is ONLY one Baptism. Just like Savior, Jesus, God, one Gospel, etc.

The reason the verse is in error is: IF it was true then John the Baptist would have been incorrect when He said,

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire (fire means power from God):

Notice closely the last part of what John is quoted as saying. Note he did NOT say there were two "baptisms". NO he was saying that water baptism was going to END when Jesus died. Think about it and reread John's words. He is saying that the baptism by the "holy spirit" will replace forever, the water baptism that he was doing-even his baptism of Jesus; BECAUSE once Jesus paid the entire price, liquid water baptism will NEVER be required once Jesus is sacrificed on the cross.

This is the reason that Jesus said,

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again (liquid water baptism): John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water (of the holy spirit) that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus was saying the SAME thing John the Baptist was saying; only in a different way. Now go back and reread John 3:5 and that word "and" is simply NOT suppose to be there.

Now I know, I know full well that I am going to be flamed from here to eternity for this; but so be it.

I was baptized in water 3 times in my youth and later, beginning at birth through "Christening" at age 6. Then "sprinkled" and lastly: immersed completely in water in a Baptist church. This was over a span of 26 yrs.

Sadly, ALL of these "baptisms" were totally UN necessary. Oh indeed yes. The ONLY baptism that counts is the baptism of the Holy Spirit of Jesus. ALL others are moot. Believe it or not. Before you flame, please consider the following real life scenarios:

1. An avowed atheist accepts Jesus on his dying bed and dies immediately. HOW did he get saved by being baptized in water?

2. A soldier in a foxhole accepts Jesus. One second later a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off. How did he get baptized in liquid water?

3. A person accepts Jesus in a church and walks forward. The preacher greets him and then tells him he will be baptized the next Sunday in the baptismal service. The person upon leaving church is hit by a car and he is killed. HOW did that person get baptized in water?

Etc, etc, and etc!

And last but not least:

4. HOW did the thief on a cross next to Jesus; who accepted Jesus: get saved by being baptized in water? Huh?

Think about it.

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you yours always.

There has probably been a lot of really good replies on this thread, nevertheless I will put my spoke in.

The baptism that is most important is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John said that he baptised by water but there was One coming who is going to baptise believers with the Spirit and with fire. The best Scriptural commentators (and I believe them), say that the baptism in the Spirit (or of the Spirit, whatever you prefer), comes along with conversion. Actually as soon as a person receives Christ, he receives the Spirit as well. There are subsequent infillings of the Spirit (or enduements of power) that come progressively as the believer grows in grace and experience. However, baptism in water is the public declaration to the world that the believer is now committed to Christ. It does not add to their salvation as far as God is concerned, but it is part of the public confession that settles the foundation of the believer's conversion to Christ. The believer is baptised because he is saved, not to be saved. That is the difference.

Now to the issue of being used of God. I don't think that this come automatically. I don't believe that the calling of God to whatever ministry is right for you consists of a spiritual fireworks display, flashing lights, and yahoos. If you waited for anything like that, or even a definite sense of the calling of God, you would remain a pew-sitter, always taking in like a little child and never giving out. I believe the pathway of being used of God is through faith. Faith is you taking action towards a ministry that you believe is right for you and the best way to serve the body of Christ at the level that you are at.

As a young Christian I felt that I couldn't compete with the young turks who had better leadership, witnessing, and preaching skills that I had at the time. So I decided to learn the guitar, because every service could do with a musician and the guitar was the quickest and easiest way to achieve that. I started playing a banjo ukelele, then a guitar. That was 50 years ago, and I have been playing and teaching the guitar ever since. It has been a marvellous and satisfying ministry. I have just learned to play the banjo as well. I did not get a voice from God telling me to do it. I just saw a need and a ministry and just went and did it. I used my faith and it worked. Also, I started to get a desire to preach and so I went to every training session I could, where they gave you four minutes to preach and then hit a milk bottle with the spoon the time is up. The bottle near got broken with the force of the spoon repeatedly hitting it when I got stimulated in my preaching and didn't want to stop! Over the years I have had more and more opportunities to preach and teach, and now I am doing it regularly in my church. Also, when I joined my latest church in 1996, I asked what could I do, and I was relegated to the choir and the Sunday School. After a while I was invited to join the board of managers (deacons), and ultimately became an elder. Two years ago I became the senior elder (Session Clerk in the Presbyterian church).

At no time did God actually tell me to do those things. I just took the opportunities that were open to me at the time. I knew one thing I wasn't called to do, and that was to be a church pew-sitter. So, I didn't care what I did and took what was offered to me. I have heard a story about a prominent Bible teacher who when he first joined a church and asked the pastor if he could preach, he was given the job of janitor. He did that faithfully, and became a Sunday school teacher, then he was promoted to the adult Bible class, and then he was given limited opportunities to preach. This happened over several years. Now he is a prominent and successful Bible teacher influencing thousands for Christ.

I think that this is the pathway to being used of the Lord. I see that even my contributions to CF are part of being used of God to encourage folks in Christ.

 

[Albion]

However, baptism in water is the public declaration to the world that the believer is now committed to Christ...The believer is baptised because he is saved, not to be saved...Two years ago I became the senior elder (Session Clerk in the Presbyterian church).

Not exactly the Presbyterian teaching on Baptism, is that?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Back to Pentecost
So then, those who had received his (Peter's) word (saved) were baptized; (believer's baptism...probably immersion or pouring!)
and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Ritual Water baptism does not save nor change lives. It is symbolic ONLY!

RESULTS...SPIRITUAL BAPTISM Changes LIVES!!!



They were continually devoting themselves to
the apostles’ teaching and
to fellowship,
to the breaking of bread and
to prayer.
Everyone kept feeling a sense of AWE (of God);
and many WONDERS and SIGNS were taking place through the apostles.( to authenticate them)
And all those who had BELIEVED were together and had all things in common; (the FIRST Christ-following congregation)
and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Day by day continuing with one mind (spiritual purpose) in the temple, and
breaking bread from house to house, (movible feast)
they were taking their [meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, (fellowship)
praising God and having favor with all the people.
And the LORD (TRI-UNE GOD) (through Spirit-led believers) was adding to their number day by day those who were being SAVED. (spirtitually changed! John 3!)

 

[Albion]

Back to Pentecost
So then, those who had received his (Peter's) word (saved) were baptized; (believer's baptism...probably immersion or pouring!)
and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

You know that that audience was made up of adults and also that churches which baptize infants don't turn away adult converts, right?.

Ritual Water baptism does not save nor change lives. It is symbolic ONLY!

Why would a purely symbolic gesture be described in scripture as something necessary?

 

[Albion]

There is no clear, unambiguous Scripture that commands ritual water baptism as a condition of spiritual salvation!!

Try these:

John 3:5-- Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16-- Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38-- Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21-- ...whereunto even baptism doth also now save us, (not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

 

[Zayin7]

Back to Pentecost
So then, those who had received his (Peter's) word (saved) were baptized; (believer's baptism...probably immersion or pouring!)
and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Ritual Water baptism does not save nor change lives. It is symbolic ONLY!

RESULTS...SPIRITUAL BAPTISM Changes LIVES!!!



They were continually devoting themselves to
the apostles’ teaching and
to fellowship,
to the breaking of bread and
to prayer.
Everyone kept feeling a sense of AWE (of God);
and many WONDERS and SIGNS were taking place through the apostles.( to authenticate them)
And all those who had BELIEVED were together and had all things in common; (the FIRST Christ-following congregation)
and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Day by day continuing with one mind (spiritual purpose) in the temple, and
breaking bread from house to house, (movible feast)
they were taking their [meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, (fellowship)
praising God and having favor with all the people.
And the LORD (TRI-UNE GOD) (through Spirit-led believers) was adding to their number day by day those who were being SAVED. (spirtitually changed! John 3!)

Again.God Does not do Nor instruct empty ritual.
When one is being saved one obeys through faith.
Again - faith is the action you take when you truly believe.

 

[Zayin7]

There has probably been a lot of really good replies on this thread, nevertheless I will put my spoke in.

The baptism that is most important is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. John said that he baptised by water but there was One coming who is going to baptise believers with the Spirit and with fire. The best Scriptural commentators (and I believe them), say that the baptism in the Spirit (or of the Spirit, whatever you prefer), comes along with conversion. Actually as soon as a person receives Christ, he receives the Spirit as well. There are subsequent infillings of the Spirit (or enduements of power) that come progressively as the believer grows in grace and experience. However, baptism in water is the public declaration to the world that the believer is now committed to Christ. It does not add to their salvation as far as God is concerned, but it is part of the public confession that settles the foundation of the believer's conversion to Christ. The believer is baptised because he is saved, not to be saved. That is the difference.

Now to the issue of being used of God. I don't think that this come automatically. I don't believe that the calling of God to whatever ministry is right for you consists of a spiritual fireworks display, flashing lights, and yahoos. If you waited for anything like that, or even a definite sense of the calling of God, you would remain a pew-sitter, always taking in like a little child and never giving out. I believe the pathway of being used of God is through faith. Faith is you taking action towards a ministry that you believe is right for you and the best way to serve the body of Christ at the level that you are at.

As a young Christian I felt that I couldn't compete with the young turks who had better leadership, witnessing, and preaching skills that I had at the time. So I decided to learn the guitar, because every service could do with a musician and the guitar was the quickest and easiest way to achieve that. I started playing a banjo ukelele, then a guitar. That was 50 years ago, and I have been playing and teaching the guitar ever since. It has been a marvellous and satisfying ministry. I have just learned to play the banjo as well. I did not get a voice from God telling me to do it. I just saw a need and a ministry and just went and did it. I used my faith and it worked. Also, I started to get a desire to preach and so I went to every training session I could, where they gave you four minutes to preach and then hit a milk bottle with the spoon the time is up. The bottle near got broken with the force of the spoon repeatedly hitting it when I got stimulated in my preaching and didn't want to stop! Over the years I have had more and more opportunities to preach and teach, and now I am doing it regularly in my church. Also, when I joined my latest church in 1996, I asked what could I do, and I was relegated to the choir and the Sunday School. After a while I was invited to join the board of managers (deacons), and ultimately became an elder. Two years ago I became the senior elder (Session Clerk in the Presbyterian church).

At no time did God actually tell me to do those things. I just took the opportunities that were open to me at the time. I knew one thing I wasn't called to do, and that was to be a church pew-sitter. So, I didn't care what I did and took what was offered to me. I have heard a story about a prominent Bible teacher who when he first joined a church and asked the pastor if he could preach, he was given the job of janitor. He did that faithfully, and became a Sunday school teacher, then he was promoted to the adult Bible class, and then he was given limited opportunities to preach. This happened over several years. Now he is a prominent and successful Bible teacher influencing thousands for Christ.

I think that this is the pathway to being used of the Lord. I see that even my contributions to CF are part of being used of God to encourage folks in Christ.

In all this ,when it comes to the baptism of the holy Spirit ,it certainly does not occur automatically at water baptism .scripture in acts shows that.
His spirit is present at baptism in water certain .but not necessarily indwelling.

 

[Ron Gurley]

John 3:5...The "water" in context of John 3 is NOT some specially blessed ritual water.
It is the "water" of the mother's womb.

Mark 16: 9-end was ADDED to the oldest MSS. BEWARE!

Acts 2:38...Pentecost 1st sermon by Peter, refers to SPIRITUAL baptism, NOT ritual water baptism.

1 Peter 3:21...SPIRITUAL baptism compared to John the Baptizer's immersion in the river

There is no magic "spirit" present in ceremonial / ritual water used in symbolic baptism.
God Himself spiritually baptizes the saved believer.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB)

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (Body of Christ!),
whether Jews or Greeks,
whether slaves or free, and
we (believers) were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Q: Why would a purely symbolic gesture be described in scripture as something necessary?
A: It is NOT "described in scripture as something necessary" to SALVATION!

 

[SkyWriting]

I guess you don't know people like me at all.
I'm NOT Rcc.
And I guess your referring to transmutation or whatever they call it.
Don't adhere to any of that myself.
Just so you know

So what was all that empty talk about the church not
using symbolic rituals?

"God Does NOT do empty symbols .
Obedience itself is never symbolic.
Baptism in water is also not symbolic." - Zayin7

Q:
What are the four symbols of baptism?
A:
QUICK ANSWER
The four symbols of baptism are water, candles, a white garment and oil. Each symbol is part of the baptism ceremony and has a different spiritual meaning.

Baptists: Believer's Baptism

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not exactly the Presbyterian teaching on Baptism, is that?

Presbyterians (and it depends on the minister) believe in infant baptism (which I don't) and adult baptism by full immersion. I have been to a baptism where one of our new members got baptised in a neighbor's swimming pool by full immersion. The Presbyterian Book of Order allows both types of baptism. It is understood that the infant baptism does not confer salvation on a child, but is more of a dedication of that child to Christ in the hope that the day will come when the person will accept Christ as Saviour.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You know that that audience was made up of adults and also that churches which baptize infants don't turn away adult converts, right?.


Why would a purely symbolic gesture be described in scripture as something necessary?

It may be necessary for public confession of faith in Christ, but it is certainly not necessary for salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Try these:

John 3:5-- Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16-- Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Acts 2:38-- Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 3:21-- ...whereunto even baptism doth also now save us, (not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The ritual in itself means nothing. If a person goes through the waters of baptism as Peter in the last quote says it, then it has value with God. But if a person gets baptised merely because it is the doctrine of his church and he does it without knowing exactly why, then it means nothing to God at all. It remains just an empty ritual. Anyone can say the sinner's prayer, but it is the heart in the prayer that saves a person, not the ritualistic chanting of it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

John 3:5...The "water" in context of John 3 is NOT some specially blessed ritual water.
It is the "water" of the mother's womb.

Mark 16: 9-end was ADDED to the oldest MSS. BEWARE!

Acts 2:38...Pentecost 1st sermon by Peter, refers to SPIRITUAL baptism, NOT ritual water baptism.

1 Peter 3:21...SPIRITUAL baptism compared to John the Baptizer's immersion in the river

There is no magic "spirit" present in ceremonial / ritual water used in symbolic baptism.
God Himself spiritually baptizes the saved believer.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB)

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (Body of Christ!),
whether Jews or Greeks,
whether slaves or free, and
we (believers) were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Q: Why would a purely symbolic gesture be described in scripture as something necessary?
A: It is NOT "described in scripture as something necessary" to SALVATION!

Maybe so, but the Early Church Christians understood it as water baptism in the same way that John the baptizer baptised people in water. When the Ethiopian Eunich believed, he saw water, and Philip baptised him in it. There was no thought of baptism being spiritual instead of in water. But I will concede that believing on Christ and being baptised in water results in the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I don't know how exactly that works, but it does in many cases. I have seen people come out of the waters of baptism speaking in tongues where they couldn't before. It happened enough times for me to know that there is something about water baptism after acceptance of Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

.
Mark 16: 9-end was ADDED to the oldest MSS. BEWARE!

Even so, but it was added by a scribe in the Early Church who had witnessed or heard of Mark talking about it, and because people were being healed and demons being cast out, and the story of Paul surviving the viper bite being told, the Scribe felt it appropriate to add those verses to Mark's account. We are not sure whether it may have been in the really original document and ripped off somewhere along the line, and then replaced, possibly because someone discovered part of that original document and replaced what was missing.

Who knows?

In reality, those verses at the end of Mark were accepted as part of the canonical book of Mark at the Council of Trent, so according to the Church at the time, it was viewed as Scripture. That's good enough for me.

Of course, some Cessationist translators in the 19th and 20th Century would have cast doubt on that section of Mark to suit their false theology. That's why there is confusion about it among Bible scholars to this day. But it was accepted as Scripture from when the manuscript was copied (maybe around the Third Century when signs and wonders were still common) until when the King James translation came out, and even then obscure words and phrases were merely made italics. It was when the Revised Standard version came out that there was a marginal note about those verses in Mark 16.

 

[Albion]

In all this ,when it comes to the baptism of the holy Spirit ,it certainly does not occur automatically at water baptism .scripture in acts shows that.

The particular event called the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" does not occur at (water) Baptism, but the conventional belief is that the HS indeed is imparted to the candidate at (water) Baptism.

 

[Albion]

Presbyterians (and it depends on the minister) believe in infant baptism (which I don't)

Yes. I just found this rejection of the church's doctrine on such a basic matter to be surprising in one of its ministers. You're entitled to believe whatever you do as far as I'm concerned, of course.

It is understood that the infant baptism does not confer salvation on a child, but is more of a dedication of that child to Christ in the hope that the day will come when the person will accept Christ as Saviour.

Well, the historic churches that are well-known for baptizing infants don't think it confers salvation upon them, either, but that they must make a decision for Christ at some point in their lives, too. So it sounds like a dedication ceremony but including water. Would that be right?

 

[Albion]

It may be necessary for public confession of faith in Christ, but it is certainly not necessary for salvation.

The ritual in itself means nothing. If a person goes through the waters of baptism as Peter in the last quote says it, then it has value with God. But if a person gets baptised merely because it is the doctrine of his church and he does it without knowing exactly why, then it means nothing to God at all. It remains just an empty ritual. Anyone can say the sinner's prayer, but it is the heart in the prayer that saves a person, not the ritualistic chanting of it.

Again, the churches that baptize infants would not disagree with you on those two points--salvation isn't assured and the intention must be correct for there to be a valid baptism.

 

[Zayin7]

The particular event called the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" does not occur at (water) Baptism, but the conventional belief is that the HS indeed is imparted to the candidate at (water) Baptism.

People like that teaching because it makes them wArm and fuzzy.
I won't teach it as I have observed it is not so .
There is only one holy spirit and when he indwells and fills a person they will know it.

 

[Albion]

People like that teaching because it makes them wArm and fuzzy.
I won't teach it as I have observed it is not so .
There is only one holy spirit and when he indwells and fills a person they will know it.

Yeh, well, there definitely are two different POVs on this subject, and there's very little way to get them to meet in the middle.

Personally, I don't see any reason to think that the Holy Spirit won't or can't come to anyone without making them feel and act like they've lost control of their bodily functions.

By the way, I don't know many people who think that receiving God in one of the sacraments causes a warm and/or fuzzy feeling to take over them. There probably are some, but it can't hold a candle to the way people who think they've received a "gift of the Holy Spirit" go on about their accomplishment.