Water Baptism
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Paul Yohannan
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Concerning your 'one baptism' understanding, look at Jesus' baptism in water and then with the Holy Spirit. And then look at Luke which was written long after.
LUK 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!
And as for your 'one baptism' only understanding for us, look at Heb 6 which speaks about going on to 'maturity' after receiving the elementary teachings. One of those teachings is in verse two 'multiple baptisms'.
HEB 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms,...
So what do you do with these scriptures and your 'one baptism' POV?
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And how do they relate to your post #11 "one baptism" comment?
IOW what 'other' baptisms' do you teach believers to receive?
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PollyJetix
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Baptism was foreshadowed in the OT by purification rituals that God prescribed.
Therefore the Jews of Jesus' day were familiar with the ritual of baptism, as is illustrated by the ancient mikvehs found around the Temple mount. And this is why they understood what John was doing, when he came baptizing repentant sinners in the Jordan. They understood the message: a sinful heart needed purification.
Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven was begun to be preached by John, and since John began his ministry, people have been pressing into the Kingdom. By repentance and baptism.
Baptism is a command of the NT, and Acts proves the NT church continued the practice, as Jesus told them to, in Matthew 28:19.
Baptism is a command. Now of course, there are many commands of Scripture, and not everyone can logistically do every single one of them. A handicapped person with no arms cannot "lift up holy hands" to the Lord. A homeless person cannot invite "angels unawares" into his house.
But those obvious exceptions cannot invalidate the commands to lift up our hands physically in praise, and to be hospitable to strangers.
My point: using the exception to the rule is not a valid reason to invalidate the rule.
Just because a sick person cannot be baptized, doesn't mean baptism isn't required of those who CAN.
Just because the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptized, doesn't mean God doesn't require YOU to obey, when you CAN.
Baptism is a command, just as is partaking in Remembrance of Christ's death, in Communion.
God's grace upon those who are unable to comply, is no license for those who ARE able, to go their merry way, without compliance.
Active refusal to obey God's commands is the definition of rebellion.
And rebellion is to God as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
1 Samuel 15:23
Why? Because it is supplanting God's authority with another.
Many parade as Christians, who actually have enthroned self, instead of God.
Just like Lucifer.
If you CAN be baptized, and don't want to, then don't tell me you are born again.
Because a genuinely born-again believer is not rebellious toward God.
Therefore the Jews of Jesus' day were familiar with the ritual of baptism, as is illustrated by the ancient mikvehs found around the Temple mount. And this is why they understood what John was doing, when he came baptizing repentant sinners in the Jordan. They understood the message: a sinful heart needed purification.
Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven was begun to be preached by John, and since John began his ministry, people have been pressing into the Kingdom. By repentance and baptism.
Baptism is a command of the NT, and Acts proves the NT church continued the practice, as Jesus told them to, in Matthew 28:19.
Baptism is a command. Now of course, there are many commands of Scripture, and not everyone can logistically do every single one of them. A handicapped person with no arms cannot "lift up holy hands" to the Lord. A homeless person cannot invite "angels unawares" into his house.
But those obvious exceptions cannot invalidate the commands to lift up our hands physically in praise, and to be hospitable to strangers.
My point: using the exception to the rule is not a valid reason to invalidate the rule.
Just because a sick person cannot be baptized, doesn't mean baptism isn't required of those who CAN.
Just because the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptized, doesn't mean God doesn't require YOU to obey, when you CAN.
Baptism is a command, just as is partaking in Remembrance of Christ's death, in Communion.
God's grace upon those who are unable to comply, is no license for those who ARE able, to go their merry way, without compliance.
Active refusal to obey God's commands is the definition of rebellion.
And rebellion is to God as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
1 Samuel 15:23
Why? Because it is supplanting God's authority with another.
Many parade as Christians, who actually have enthroned self, instead of God.
Just like Lucifer.
If you CAN be baptized, and don't want to, then don't tell me you are born again.
Because a genuinely born-again believer is not rebellious toward God.
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PollyJetix
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As to the "one baptism" mentioned in Ephesians 4, to correctly understand this passage, we MUST read the context:
Ephesians 4:2-6
Paul was not talking about how many kinds of spiritual baptisms one can experience. (And yes, the Greek meaning of "baptizo" is "to dip, submerge, or overwhelm.")
He was talking about unity in the Body of Christ. Not splitting into factions. He was saying that if you have been baptized in water ONE time, that baptism is valid in all the churches. We don't go getting baptized into the Baptist church, and then if we join another church, we have to go get baptized into THAT church.
Because water baptism is into Christ. Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27.
Baptism is the way we become a member of that spiritual body.
And yes, Scripturally, water baptism is a spiritual act.
The OT illustrates how symbolic actions have spiritual power.
All those sacrifices of animals... all pointed to Christ, symbolically.
And God required it. As an act of faith, as a response of obedience, in repentance.
And that animal blood covered their sins.
But it was only a symbolic act.
Never in the Bible are we told to be baptized to tell others of our decision to follow Christ.
Baptism is never spoken of in the Bible as a witnessing tool.
Baptism was ALWAYS something one did before the Lord.
It was even performed in private, with only the baptizer and the baptizee present.
And it was never postponed for even a day. Not once.
Check it out.
That's how important it is.
Ephesians 4:2-6
Paul was not talking about how many kinds of spiritual baptisms one can experience. (And yes, the Greek meaning of "baptizo" is "to dip, submerge, or overwhelm.")
He was talking about unity in the Body of Christ. Not splitting into factions. He was saying that if you have been baptized in water ONE time, that baptism is valid in all the churches. We don't go getting baptized into the Baptist church, and then if we join another church, we have to go get baptized into THAT church.
Because water baptism is into Christ. Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27.
Baptism is the way we become a member of that spiritual body.
And yes, Scripturally, water baptism is a spiritual act.
The OT illustrates how symbolic actions have spiritual power.
All those sacrifices of animals... all pointed to Christ, symbolically.
And God required it. As an act of faith, as a response of obedience, in repentance.
And that animal blood covered their sins.
But it was only a symbolic act.
Never in the Bible are we told to be baptized to tell others of our decision to follow Christ.
Baptism is never spoken of in the Bible as a witnessing tool.
Baptism was ALWAYS something one did before the Lord.
It was even performed in private, with only the baptizer and the baptizee present.
And it was never postponed for even a day. Not once.
Check it out.
That's how important it is.
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Baptism of repentance - for Nation of Israel only: - Under the Gospel of the Kingdom message:
Baptism of repentance was John the Baptist ministry for the Nation of Israel only. A call of Repentance from breaking their 1st covenant with the LORD Jeremiah 31:32. Water baptism here is Jewish purification/cleasning doctrine preparing themselves for the soon coming prophesied & promised Messiah.
John the Baptist proclaimed:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptise you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(THE COMING MESSIAH WILL BAPTISE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT & WITH FIRE)
The baptism into Christ's body via the Holy Spirit. Matt 3:11 & Luke 3:16. Is a covenant of spiritual circumcision, done without hands and without water.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(BY """ONE SPIRIT""" THE """HOLY SPIRIT""" WE ARE BAPTIZED BY CHRIST, INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST. NOBODY GETS WET)
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Deut 30:6 (A) The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart
HERES WHAT HAPPENS AT THE MOMENT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST:
Eph 1:3 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ""ye were sealed with that holy Spirit''" of promise
(WHATS THE "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION"? AFTER YOU BELIEVED IN THE SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. YOU WERE - "PAST TENSE"" SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT)
14 Which is the down payment of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(YOUR SALVATION WAS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT & IS GUARANTEED BY GOD. AT THE MOMENT YOU PLACED YOUR FAITH/BELIEF/TRUST IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)
Deut 30:6 (A) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart
New Testament Baptism in water:
Water baptism is an emblem of the true spiritual baptism/circumcision.
Water baptism is an outwardly public profession of dying to sin, being buried (when we go under) and of being raised together with Christ in new spiritual resurrection life.
John 12:24 Verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground & die, "it abideth alone" "but if it die" "it bringeth forth much fruit"
(ONE MUST DIE TO SELF IN ORDER TO BRING FORTH GODLY FRUITS. NOT TO BE SAVED. ONLY FAITH IN CHRIST IS REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!)
Baptism of repentance was John the Baptist ministry for the Nation of Israel only. A call of Repentance from breaking their 1st covenant with the LORD Jeremiah 31:32. Water baptism here is Jewish purification/cleasning doctrine preparing themselves for the soon coming prophesied & promised Messiah.
John the Baptist proclaimed:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptise you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(THE COMING MESSIAH WILL BAPTISE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT & WITH FIRE)
The baptism into Christ's body via the Holy Spirit. Matt 3:11 & Luke 3:16. Is a covenant of spiritual circumcision, done without hands and without water.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(BY """ONE SPIRIT""" THE """HOLY SPIRIT""" WE ARE BAPTIZED BY CHRIST, INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST. NOBODY GETS WET)
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Deut 30:6 (A) The LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart
HERES WHAT HAPPENS AT THE MOMENT YOU ACCEPT CHRIST:
Eph 1:3 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed ""ye were sealed with that holy Spirit''" of promise
(WHATS THE "GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION"? AFTER YOU BELIEVED IN THE SIN ATONING DEATH, BURIAL & RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. YOU WERE - "PAST TENSE"" SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT)
14 Which is the down payment of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(YOUR SALVATION WAS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT & IS GUARANTEED BY GOD. AT THE MOMENT YOU PLACED YOUR FAITH/BELIEF/TRUST IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST)
Deut 30:6 (A) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart
New Testament Baptism in water:
Water baptism is an emblem of the true spiritual baptism/circumcision.
Water baptism is an outwardly public profession of dying to sin, being buried (when we go under) and of being raised together with Christ in new spiritual resurrection life.
John 12:24 Verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground & die, "it abideth alone" "but if it die" "it bringeth forth much fruit"
(ONE MUST DIE TO SELF IN ORDER TO BRING FORTH GODLY FRUITS. NOT TO BE SAVED. ONLY FAITH IN CHRIST IS REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!)
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more4less
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Jesus first visit was for the lost sheep of Israel, the ones that were under the Old covenant. But He does has other sheep that are not of this flock, (In regards to the ones of the New covenant) but He will soon gather them in as well.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
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more4less
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The first collection...
David had begged for forgiveness, but it was never granted to him, until..
Matthew 13:17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
David had begged for forgiveness, but it was never granted to him, until..
Matthew 13:17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
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First, a valid Baptism includes consent and all that entails.
1) if it can be viewed as such - Baptism of desire. Ideally he would be asked and then Baptized on the spot with any water/liquid available but preferably Holy Water.
2) ditto, but obviously unable to baptize the headless
3)ditto, again if someone at accident could have offered it before death, then better
4) A pure act of contrition is evident in the thief's expression that is immediately recognized by God Himself = Baptism of desire.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1
"The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament."
"Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized."
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TheSeabass
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By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there is ONE baptism that is currently in effect. That one baptism would be the water baptism of Christ's great commission. Therefore there is not baptism with the Holy Spirit today.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a prophecy of Joel..."And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" Joel 2:28
The phrase "ALL FLESH" does not mean that each and every individual born into this world will be baptized with the Holy Spirit nor does it mean animals will be baptized with the Holy Spirit even though animals have flesh. At the time of Joel, "all flesh" ie, mankind was made up of two major groups:
1) Jews
2) Gentiles (non-Jews)
In Acts 2, the Apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Apostles were Jews. And Peter connects these Jewish Apostles being baptized with the Holy Spirit to Joel's prophecy Acts 2:16 "But this (Apostles baptized with HS) is that (Joel's prophecy) which was spoken by the prophet Joel;" And in Acts 2:17 Peter begins to quote Joel's prophecy "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"
So here in Acts 2 we have the beginning of the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy that "all flesh" will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Some years later in Acts 10 God baptized the Gentiles with the Holy Spirit. So now we have the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy that "all flesh" (Jew and Gentile) will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
A purpose of the Lord coming to earth was to fulfill the law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17,18) and by the Lord baptizing both Jew (Apostles) and Gentile (Cornelius) He did fulfill the prophet Joel's prophecy of baptism with the Holy Spirit. "Fulfill" means to bring to an end, to cease and when that prophecy of Joel was fulfilled in Acts 10, then baptized with the Holy Spirit ended, ceased. The Lord did not fail in fulfilling all the law and prophets. Therefore by the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there was "one baptism" in effect. That one baptism that is in effect is the baptism of Christ's great commission (Matthew 28:19,20) (Mark 16:15,16). This is the baptism that was commanded (Acts 2:38) performed and obeyed (Acts 8:38,39) (Acts 10:47,48).
Comparison between Christ's baptism of the great commission and baptism with the Holy SPirit:
Christ's baptism (Matt 28:19,20' Mark 16:15-16' Lk 24:47)
--commanded to all men
--how disciples were made
--administered by humans/disciples
--saves
--lasts till the end of the world
--was to be taught to new converts to be perpetuated
Baptism with the Holy Spirit:
--never commanded, only a promise to the Apostles
--did not make one a disciple
--only can be administered by the Lord
--did not save
--was for a limited time for a limited purpose
--was not to be taught to new converts nor perpetuated.
Therefore baptism with the Holy pis not the one baptism of EPh 4:5 that is in effect today.
========
Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"
This verse has no application to anyone today. To understand a passage it must be understood who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said. In Matt 3:11 John is speaking; Pharisees are being spoken to (Mt 3:7). Why would John say to these Pharisees "I baptized YOU with water" when John had not baptized them with water (Luke 7:30)? It then is apparent John is using both pronouns "you" in a generic sense and they do not refer to anyone specifically. There is an old adage "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink". Again, both pronouns "you" in this adage do not refer to anyone specifically but are being used generically. All John is doing in Matt 3:11 is announcing the type of baptism he baptized with and announcing the type of baptisms Christ would baptize with and John is NOT promising any of these baptism to those he was speaking to or anyone today. No one can contextually insert themselves in as being who the first or second pronoun "you" refers to. It cannot then be told from the immediate context as to who the "you" refers to that will be baptized with the Holy Spirit, so we have to look at the fulfillment of John's words. In Acts 1:1-5 Jesus was having a discourse with His Apostles and makes reference to John's words of Matt 3:11 in Acts 1:5. It was the Apostles, no one else, being promised the baptism with the Holy Spirit and it was the Apostles in Acts 2 the Lord baptized with the Holy Spirit, no one else. Therefore the "you" of Matt 3:11 that was to be baptized with the Holy Spirit was the Apostles.
=====
The figurative use of the word "water" in John 4:13 has nothing to do with "water" of John 3:5. No one can find a context where water is being used figurative then freely apply that figurative use anywhere they so wish. There is nothing in John 3:5 that shows either "water" of "Spirit" are being used in any figurative sense. If Spirit means literal spirit and water means literal water. If water cannot be literal then neither can spirit for consistencies sake. I see a few verses later there was much water where John could water baptize, John 3:23. This water here is literal water as it is in John 3:5. You cannot apply the figurative use of water from John 4:13 in either John 3:5 or John 3:23 or any other passage you choose.
=====
Christ's NT gospel does not teach "death bed' salvation.
=====
The thief on the cross:
--is not an example of NT salvation Hebrews 9:15-16; Romans 6:3-5: Romans 10:9-10
--may have been water baptized for all we know, Mark 1:5
--Christ had the power to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving while He was ON EARTH Matthew 9:6. Christ left earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9) leaving behind his NT gospel as His authority as to how men are saved and His NT authority requires one believe John 8:24; Repent, Luke 13:3; confess Matthew 10:32-33 and be baptized Mark 16:15-16. Obviously Christ is not in person here on earth today forgiving men their sins separate and apart from His NT gospel, so no one can make the claim they are saved in the same manner as the thief.
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Whether it actually is or not is reflected in my comment "if it is" meaning if and to the extent we could credit a persons words as being considered a pure act of contrition - then we could also likewise credit their sins removed as if they desired a Baptism. That would then, like the thief's, be a Baptism of desire.
We can't even comment on whether a person being actually Baptized did in fact do so sincerely, so assuming it was the efficacy for Baptism to the remission of all prior sins would not be doubted.
The Church makes only three distinctions, actual water Baptism, one of desire and one of blood. The second two are really variations on the same idea of a pure act of contrition, only the final distinction recognizes as special and beyond question in efficacy in going to death for one's faith without having been water Baptized. Each of the questions the OP gave were examples of how we could say Baptism was accounted (whether one believes Baptism actually does anything or not) or required of those peoples. Having said to have had a Baptism of desire would be a Catholic response to such questions.
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