Water Baptism

[Zayin7]

So what was all that empty talk about the church not
using symbolic rituals?

"God Does NOT do empty symbols .
Obedience itself is never symbolic.
Baptism in water is also not symbolic." - Zayin7

Q:
What are the four symbols of baptism?
A:
QUICK ANSWER
The four symbols of baptism are water, candles, a white garment and oil. Each symbol is part of the baptism ceremony and has a different spiritual meaning.

Baptists: Believer's Baptism

I never said the church doesn't do empty symbolic rituals.. Its full of all kinds of stuff.
I said God doesn't do or command them. Meaning there is power in everything he commands us.
If a person gets baptised thinking it's just symbolic..they have not been baptised into by faith. But into dead religiosity.

 

[Zayin7]

Yeh, well, there definitely are two different POVs on this subject, and there's very little way to get them to meet in the middle.

Personally, I don't see any reason to think that the Holy Spirit won't or can't come to anyone without making them feel and act like they've lost control of their bodily functions.

Not sure what loss of bodily function your on about there to be honest.what has the loss of bodily function got to do with it?

 

[Zayin7]

John 3:5...The "water" in context of John 3 is NOT some specially blessed ritual water.
It is the "water" of the mother's womb.

Mark 16: 9-end was ADDED to the oldest MSS. BEWARE!

Acts 2:38...Pentecost 1st sermon by Peter, refers to SPIRITUAL baptism, NOT ritual water baptism.

1 Peter 3:21...SPIRITUAL baptism compared to John the Baptizer's immersion in the river

There is no magic "spirit" present in ceremonial / ritual water used in symbolic baptism.
God Himself spiritually baptizes the saved believer.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB)

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (Body of Christ!),
whether Jews or Greeks,
whether slaves or free, and
we (believers) were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Q: Why would a purely symbolic gesture be described in scripture as something necessary?
A: It is NOT "described in scripture as something necessary" to SALVATION!

Nope its not the water of the womb. That is the carnal birth the material.not of faith. We are the children of Abraham by faith not by natural birth.
So when he says you must be born of water and of spirit.he is not speaking about the natural birth of the flesh from a mother's womb.

It is burial and resurection.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: - Rom 6.

 

[Albion]

Q: Why would a purely symbolic gesture be described in scripture as something necessary?
A: It is NOT "described in scripture as something necessary" to SALVATION!

That wasn't my point. In a number of Bible passages, Baptism is seen as a necessity. It is described as necessary. In some cases, there's almost a not of desperation about getting baptized or of anxiety about missing out. Whatever benefit one attaches to the sacrament, it doesn't make sense that Baptism would be presented to us in Scripture that way...IF IT'S ONLY A SYMBOL.

 

[Albion]

Not sure what loss of bodily function your on about there to be honest.what has the loss of bodily function got to do with it?

IMHO, it has nothing to do with it. Yet that is what many, including you, say must happen if it's to be genuine. Or did this statement mean something else--

...when he indwells and fills a person they will know it.

?

 

[PollyJetix]

okay. I realized this post was off-topic.
I've started a new thread with it. You can see it here:
Romans 8:9 and 10

 

[Zayin7]

IMHO, it has nothing to do with it. Yet that is what many, including you, say must happen if it's to be genuine. Or did this statement mean something else--



?

Still not sure what "loss of bodily function" was about.
Knowing one has recieved the baptism of the holy spirit is about what comes out of a person because what fills the heart always comes out the mouth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

A Christian <staff edit> said the following, nearing the end of his article titled, "Why isnt God using me?.....

.......And if you're wondering yes, I've been baptised in water and the holy spirit.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My thoughts ran deep when I read this. It is obvious that my Christian brother who posted that, believes as literally billions of Christians over 2,000 yrs have believed. It is also obvious that belief was taken from words that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus (A Jewish scholar) concerning being "born again":

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

For almost 70 yrs I believed that verse to be 100% true. But it is NOT. The word "and" in that verse should NOT have been included in that verse when it was translated. Take the word "and" out of their and then read the verse.

There is ONLY one Baptism. Just like Savior, Jesus, God, one Gospel, etc.

The reason the verse is in error is: IF it was true then John the Baptist would have been incorrect when He said,

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with (liquid) water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire (fire means power from God):

Notice closely the last part of what John is quoted as saying. Note he did NOT say there were two "baptisms". NO he was saying that water baptism was going to END when Jesus died. Think about it and reread John's words. He is saying that the baptism by the "holy spirit" will replace forever, the water baptism that he was doing-even his baptism of Jesus; BECAUSE once Jesus paid the entire price, liquid water baptism will NEVER be required once Jesus is sacrificed on the cross.

This is the reason that Jesus said,

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again (liquid water baptism): John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water (of the holy spirit) that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus was saying the SAME thing John the Baptist was saying; only in a different way. Now go back and reread John 3:5 and that word "and" is simply NOT suppose to be there.

Now I know, I know full well that I am going to be flamed from here to eternity for this; but so be it.

I was baptized in water 3 times in my youth and later, beginning at birth through "Christening" at age 6. Then "sprinkled" and lastly: immersed completely in water in a Baptist church. This was over a span of 26 yrs.

Sadly, ALL of these "baptisms" were totally UN necessary. Oh indeed yes. The ONLY baptism that counts is the baptism of the Holy Spirit of Jesus. ALL others are moot. Believe it or not. Before you flame, please consider the following real life scenarios:

1. An avowed atheist accepts Jesus on his dying bed and dies immediately. HOW did he get saved by being baptized in water?

2. A soldier in a foxhole accepts Jesus. One second later a rocket propelled grenade blows his head off. How did he get baptized in liquid water?

3. A person accepts Jesus in a church and walks forward. The preacher greets him and then tells him he will be baptized the next Sunday in the baptismal service. The person upon leaving church is hit by a car and he is killed. HOW did that person get baptized in water?

Etc, etc, and etc!

And last but not least:

4. HOW did the thief on a cross next to Jesus; who accepted Jesus: get saved by being baptized in water? Huh?

Think about it.

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you yours always.

Your close although i wouldn't change the text in John 3. Jesus is speaking of two births in that chapter, one of the flesh and the other os the spirit. The flesh is flesh verse relates to being born of water, or coming out of the mothers womb as Nicodemus asked. The water breaks and the child is born after the flesh. The Spirit is the other birth, born after the spirt. This is the salvation and new birth by the word of God as peter and James speak of and Paul in other places.

The saving baptism is not into water but into Christ all those who believe are baptized or immersed into Christ by the Spirit 1 Cor 12:13 and they put on Christ in this baptism Galatians 3

water baptism as i have seen was for the jews and under the OT law and shadows. John said he must decrease and Jesus must increase. It took time for the jewish believers to let go of the law and ordinances as we see all through Acts. Read Acts 15 and 21

 

[Zayin7]

Your close although i wouldn't change the text in John 3. Jesus is speaking of And two births in that chapter, one of the flesh and the other os the spirit. The flesh is flesh verse relates to being born of water, or coming out of the mothers womb as Nicodemus asked. The water breaks and the child is born after the flesh. The Spirit is the other birth, born after the spirt. This is the salvation and new birth by the word of God as peter and James speak of and Paul in other places.

The saving baptism is not into water but into Christ all those who believe are baptized or immersed into Christ by the Spirit 1 Cor 12;13 and they put on Christ in this baptism Galatians 3

water baptism as i have seen was for the jews and under the OT law and shadows. John said he must decrease and Jesus must increase. It took time for the jewish believers to let go of the law and ordinances as we see all through Acts. Read Acts 15 and 21

And... In acts under the function of the holy ghost Peter commands baptism in water
You can't escape it ..is not just symbolic it is power.
If ant believer knows to do it in faith Nd refuses to they remain in rebellion to the gospel and are not saved.
Are they not saved because of no water baptism ..no they are not saved because they refuse to obey the Gospel.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And... In acts under the function of the holy ghost Peter commands baptism in water
You can't escape it ..is not just symbolic it is power.
If ant believer knows to do it in faith Nd refuses to they remain in rebellion to the gospel and are not saved.
Are they not saved because of no water baptism ..no they are not saved because they refuse to obey the Gospel.

No you couldn't be further from the truth. It is not part of the gospel, read 1 Cor 15:1-4 Paul said Christ sent him NOT to baptism but to preach the gospel. Paul was sent primarily to the gentiles as the apostle of the gentiles. peter was sent with the gospel too the circumcision (Jews). There is a difference. paul had the gospel to the uncircumcision and peter to the circumcision. The Jews were still under the law and coming out of the Old covenant, they were still bound up under the temple sacrifices ordinances etc and yes even Johns water baptism. In Hebrews 8 we read that the Old Covenant was fading away ready to vanish. It had not vanished yet, even when Hebrews was written and the Jewish believers were still under the law and struggling for a long time after Christ death. In Acts 10 when Peter went to the first Gentile for him, he did not want to go and eventually was convinced, he was still following the law and customs of the jews. When a gentile got converted the Jews water baptized them and circumcised them as part of the customs of the Jews. Peter did the same, (being still under the law in many respects).

When Peter went to the temple in Acts 2 he was going to do the Jewish aspects of the temple and prayer etc. He did not yet have a full understanding of many of these aspects and the temple was still standing. But He preached to the men of Israel his message and they were also still under the law. Can you imagine peter getting up to all the Jews there and saying, "there is no more temple needed and the sacrifices ended and all the law etc . First of all he did not understand that yet so his conscience could not be perfect in that. Also the other jews who were there would not have understood that all yet either. God was patient with them and allowed a time of transition as we see in Acts from the old to the new. The diverse washings (baptisms) and other carnal ordinances were IMPOSED upon them (the Jews) until the time of reformation. This included Johns OT water baptism.

Jesus said to the apostles at the very beginning that John baptized [past tense] with water but ye shall be baptized [future tense] with the Holy Ghost. Peter remembered these words when he was water baptizing Cornelius. Cornelius had already been saved and filled with the Spirit before any water baptism. Peter asked in a questioning way "who can forbid water". Two reasons he may have done that was 1. He was still following the custom of the Jews called the Halavah law and gentile converts had to be water baptized in full submersion and circumcised) The ciricumcision part was seen in Acts 15 with the Gentiles. 2. He was still following Johns OT water baptism and it was very close to them.

But later Peter told what the one true saving baptism was and it was not a putting away of the filth of the flesh ) or that is to say, not a outward washing with water). But the saving baptism is an inward work by the resurrection of jJesus Christ. As he is now risen we can have a full assurance of hope and our conscience can be clean through the blood of Christ through the Spirit as hebrews 9 says. Hebrews 9 also says that the conscience cant be clean by diverse washings. So the answer of a good conscience that peter speaks of in 1 Peter 3;21, or the inquiry of a good conscience can never be made clean by outward ordinances it is an inward reality of the new birth where Gods Spirit bears witness with out spirit that we are the sons of God. This inner witness also bears witness in our conscience. the word conscience meaning "with knowledge". Now we have the knowledge of the finished work of Jesus and do not need daily sacrifices and diverse washings and carnal ordinances. We are also risen with Christ and have the witness in ourselves.

The type of 8 souls saved in Noahs ark is a type of being saved in Christ and in rest with him Naoh meaning rest. And raised up (into the heavens) by the water as we are raised up with Christ into heavenly places.

Christ died for our sins but was raised again for our justification and as we are crucified with him we are also risen with him to the newness of life.

Also in Acts 21 we see many of the jewish BELIEVERS still going in the temple and sacrificing animals etc and zealous of the law and customs of the jews. There is no getting out of this truth it is clear in scripture. This was many years after Christ death possibly 62 Ad or so or later

 

[LoveofTruth]

Nope its not the water of the womb. That is the carnal birth the material.not of faith. We are the children of Abraham by faith not by natural birth.
So when he says you must be born of water and of spirit.he is not speaking about the natural birth of the flesh from a mother's womb.

It is burial and resurection.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: - Rom 6.

Nope

Jesus was speaking of two births there in John 3 one from the flesh, natural birth, where the water breaks and a child is born of water from the mothers womb. The other a spiritual birth from above born again by the word of God as Peter James John, Paul allude to and say as well,

" Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:5,6)

as clear as day to the unbiased reader.

Two births clearly spoken of. Flesh and spirit.

And Romans 6 is not speaking of water baptism. Show me the word "water" there.

 

[Zayin7]

Nope

Jesus was speaking of two births there in John 3 one from the flesh, natural birth, where the water breaks and a child is born of water from the mothers womb. The other a spiritual birth from above born again by the word of God as Peter James John, Paul allude to and say as well,

" Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:5,6)

as clear as day to the unbiased reader.

Two births clearly spoken of. Flesh and spirit.

And Romans 6 is not speaking of water baptism. Show me the word "water" there.

..."repent , be baptized for the remission of your sin and you will receive the promised holy Spirit ... "

proving absolutely that the receiving of the holy Spirit is Not the baptism of repentance and death into Christs death that we might also be raised with him.

 

[Zayin7]

any time people take a plain simple instruction from scripture and try to explain-it away they are merely opposing the scripture . and encouraging others to disobey .

 

[LoveofTruth]

..."repent , be baptized for the remission of your sin and you will receive the promised holy Spirit ... "

proving absolutely that the receiving of the holy Spirit is Not the baptism of repentance and death into Christs death that we might also be raised with him.

First of all you quoted wrong it actually says

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( Acts 2:38 KJV)

you took out or forgot yo put in or deliberately did not put in the words, "baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ"

To be immersed into or in the name ( character life power virtue ) of jesus is done by the Spirit, for by one Spirit are we A:: BAPTIZED into one body. That body is the body of Christ. As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Also peter was speaking to the Jews. he went to the temple ( still under the law and sacrifices ), and he spoke still under the diverse washings and carnal ordinances that were imposed upon Israel. They did not have knowledge of the full aspects of the new covenant as we see all through Acts.

But peter still said the right words. When a person repents and is baptized in the name of jJesus Christ he has a purged conscience and that through faith in the blood of Jesus. Then in Christ or in the name of Jesus Christ they can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For The Spirit baptizes believers into Christ and jess Christ baptizes then with the Holy Ghost.

We also know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Johns water baptism as we read in the gospels was for the remission of sins also. But we know that no blood had been shed. So Johns shadow was a type not the reality. Like the sacrifice of animals was for sin, but those sacrifices cannot make the person perfect as pertaining to the conscience. And the saving baptism that pater cam to speak of is not water baptism but the answer of a good conscience by the resurrection of jesus Christ.

Remember where peter was when he spoke, at the temple, and remember who he was speaking to and the situation of them still zealous for the law and customs and the sacrifices etc. The diverse washings and carnal ordinances were allowed for a time of reformation, they were imposed upon them. Hebrews 9.

 

[Zayin7]

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( Acts 2:38 KJV)

and it is STILL plainly showing that the receiving of the holy ghost and the Baptiste of water are BOTH called for .. when you have to make huge long posts to oppose the word of god it says a lot ,
Paul made a distinction between johns baptism when he asked the men into whose baptism ....? and they said johns and he said you must be Baptized into Christ (PP) and they agreed and then he baptized them( the gentiles) in water and AFTER that they received the holy Ghost .. see water then spirit BOTH . so your version is different .

pretty simply stuff .

your version doesn't agree with the scriptures version . you want people to deny and disobey or something . i will stick to the version in the scriptures . it tells us to do it .
so DO it .

it tells us to be baptize- it means dipped, soaked saturated drenched etc .. and then it tells us to baptize ,"DIP" others in Jesus name .
can YOU or I baptize with the holy Spirit ? Nope ! so its not telling us to do what we cannot do . but what we are to do .because we can do it . baptise them .. DIP then in water in jesus name .. thats what baptize means

 

[FireDragon76]

....and yet, we read in scripture that there is ONE Lord, One Faith, and ONE BAPTISM.

Good point. Some people want to read John 3:5 as somehow describing two baptisms, or separating out water and the Spirit into contrasting events. They give all kinds of spiritual interpretations to "water" as well, rather than focus on the plain language of the text. That happens once the notion of a sacrament is rejected.

 

[Albion]

Whatever we think of the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' (or baptism of desire or baptism of fire, etc), there is no doubt that baptism with water was an essential from the beginning.

There are too many places in the NT where baptism with water is referred to for us to talk as though the baptism spoken of in scripture is only some spiritual or mental thing.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( Acts 2:38 KJV)

and it is STILL plainly showing that the receiving of the holy ghost and the Baptiste of water are BOTH called for .. when you have to make huge long posts to oppose the word of god it says a lot ,
Paul made a distinction between johns baptism when he asked the men into whose baptism ....? and they said johns and he said you must be Baptized into Christ (PP) and they agreed and then he baptized them( the gentiles) in water and AFTER that they received the holy Ghost .. see water then spirit BOTH . so your version is different .

pretty simply stuff .

your version doesn't agree with the scriptures version . you want people to deny and disobey or something . i will stick to the version in the scriptures . it tells us to do it .
so DO it .

it tells us to be baptize- it means dipped, soaked saturated drenched etc .. and then it tells us to baptize ,"DIP" others in Jesus name .
can YOU or I baptize with the holy Spirit ? Nope ! so its not telling us to do what we cannot do . but what we are to do .because we can do it . baptise them .. DIP then in water in jesus name .. thats what baptize means

Everything I say and my "version" as you put it is according to scripture.

There are about 7 baptisms in scripture, yet "one baptism" that saves. The saving baptismn is not water baptism or the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The saving baptism is the baptism into Christ where we put on Christ. There are other baptisms such as the baptism unto Moses the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire, the baptism of suffering, the baptism in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost the baptism of Jesus etc.

Some say, "well peter did it and in Acts we see them doing it so we should do it also".

But in Acts we see believers (Jews) also going to the temple and sacrificing animals all through Acts and keeping the law, zealous for it in fact and the customs of the Jews. Are you suppose to do that also? Are you suppose to sacrifice animals today because they did? If you are a Gentile are you suppose to do that now, or a Jew? No. Are you suppose to be zealous of the Mosaic law and circumcision even though the Jewish believers did this in Acts ( Acts 15 and 21 etc etc). Are you suppose to follow Johns water baptism that was under the Old Covenant for the Jews today?

What do you think this means? Please explain the reason for this verse.

"7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" (Galatians 2:7 KJV)


Also explain this section and I ask you do you do this today? This was done by the Jewish believers in Acts. If we use your reasoning, then you should do this also since they did it in Acts it must be for us. But it is not.

"17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.... 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing,...26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them." (Acts 21:17-25 KJV)

also you might want to consider these verses also

"13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." ( Hebrews 8:13 KJV) Notice that the covenant was fading away ready to vanish, it had not done so even when this book of hebrews was written. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. it seems that God gave them a space of time for reformation to come out of the old into the new. But many lingered and did not it seems.

and about water baptism and any diverse washings of the Jews or carnal ordinances we read

"9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings [Baptismos in Greek], and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." (Hebrews 9:9,10 KJV)

Notice that the imposing of these things was until the time of reformation. God was reforming things from the old to the new and the jews took time to come into this fully. They were brought up all along with the law and types etc and shadows. It was not so easy for them to come out. but the gentiles were not. it did not make sense to bring the gentiles to live like the jews and then tell them also to come out of it. No paul did not preach this for the gentiles and neither did the believers say they should be under the law.

Notice also here that the CONSCIENCE (with knowledge) could not be made perfect by such outward washings and carnal ordinances. They had to have a sacrifice made all the time for their sin because they did not have a conscience or that is to say they did not have knowledge of how they could be clean by animal sacrifices. These sacrifices were shadows of the reality in Christ sacrifice. But the conscience can only be clean this way as we read, in the same chapter,

"14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?: (Hebrews 9:14 KJV)

Notice that the conscience can only be purged through Christ and the blood of Christ shed. So faith in his blood brings remission of sins as scripture teaches and then out CONSCIENCE can be purged, clean and perfect. Our knowledge is there of the finished work of Christ and his resurrection is believed, we are also raised with him and have the witness in our conscience and God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit. This is all an inward work and this relates to the saving baptism and what Peter speaks of. As we read,

"21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 PETER 3:21 KJV)

Here we see that the saving baptism is not water baptism (or the outward washing with water over the flesh) but it is an inward reality and a witness in our conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The expression "the answer of a good conscience", means the inquiry of our knowledge as to how we are saved. Now we have a full assurance of hope, whereas the OT saints had to have a remembrance of their sins and shadows reflecting that future reality. Believers are resurrected with Christ. This is the newness of life and we are raised up and seated with him n heavenly places and find rest in him. This is like the future of Noahs ark, where the 8 souls (the number of resurrection, a new day) were in the ark, (a type of being immersed into Christ) and raised up above the judgement of the old world as we are crucified with Christ and buried with him and risen with him raise up to heavenly places in Christ. It is a wonderful type. But if we make it simply an outward washing with water in Johns OT water baptism, we miss it. The conscience cannot be clean or purged or perfect by diverse washings as the writer of hebrews says. Only through the blood ofJesus Christ through the Spirit can this happen to have a good or clean or perfect or purged conscience.

Consider only through the blood and faith in the blood of Jesus Christ is remission of sins in the New Testament,

Matthew 26:28
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." Yet Jesus hadn't died yet. So what was water baptism of John? was it for the remission of sins, no it was for repentance for the remission of sins that would be accomplished when jesus died on the cross. Though they could have the inner effect by faith of that work then, because God forces the word and promise he made and can give the benefits to the OT saints as well.



Luke 1:77
"To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins"

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"


Hebrews 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Just a few thoughts here



Also consider what the saving gospel is. If you add anything to this gospel anything any man made works or works of the law etc you make another gospel. if you add water baptism, circumcision, sabbath keeping, Mosaic law, ordinances sacraments ( so called) etc etc., then you make another gospel. Then read Galatians 1


The Gospel of Salvation

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

And "baptized" means "immersed into something", and believers are immersed into Christ by the Spirit. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. This is a spiritual reality.

 

[LoveofTruth]

any time people take a plain simple instruction from scripture and try to explain-it away they are merely opposing the scripture . and encouraging others to disobey .

some scriptures are plain, but no scripture is understood or the things of God without the Spirit 1 Cor 2 1 John 2:27 etc etc .

and pPeter said,

"
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."


are such things plain to understand and easy?

scripture is plain, paul said that Christ sent him NOT to baptize but to preach the gospel, and he deigns that gospel in the same book of Corinthians as 1 Cor 15;1-4.

That is clear and yet really understood in the spirt.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Whatever we think of the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit' (or baptism of desire or baptism of fire, etc), there is no doubt that baptism with water was an essential from the beginning.

There are too many places in the NT where baptism with water is referred to for us to talk as though the baptism spoken of in scripture is only some spiritual or mental thing.

No the water baptism of John was Old testament unto repentance and for the remission of sins ( that would come through Jesus death and shed blood and resurrection). Jesus told them right at the beginning of Acts that john baptized [past tense] with water, but ye shall be baptized [future tense] with the Holy Ghost. Johns ministry was OT and was fading away ready to vanish as the entire old covenant was. But the jewish believers ( whom Peter James and John etc were ministering to primarily were struggling with the law and did not let go of things easily. They could not either until there conscience was clean and they had a good conscience in these matters. They also had the diverse washings and carnal ordinances imposed upon them until the time of reformation.

There are about 7 baptisms in scripture and only one baptism that saves. The saving baptism is not water baptism or the baptism with the Holy Ghost. But the baptism into Christ by the Spirit, where we put n Christ. We are immersed (baptized) into him and he in us.

if some say we have to do what the jewish believers did in Acts, then they must also go to the temple do animal sacrifices circumcision, be zealous of the whole law and customs of the jews, eat certain foods and not others etc etc etc, have a high priest and levite priesthood to do the ministry . These things the jewish believers followed all through acts read Acts 10, 15, 21 etc etc. Yes BELIEVERS in jesus who were jews did these. So are we to do these today because believers did them in Acts? NO.

Where was Peter going in Acts 2? To the temple, what did they do in the temple at that time? everything in the law and animal sacrifices and diverse washings and carnal ordinances etc . Who was Peter speaking to in Acts 2? The nation of Israel, the jews specifically. Were the jews going to suddenly all leave the temple system and law? no it was a time of reformation and transition God allowed for them. So should we as gentiles be under such laws and temple worship and water baptisms of john which were all part of the Old testament? No.

Paul withstood peter to the face in Galatians 2, because the truth of the gospel was in danger and he was constraining the gentiles to live as the jews. We should not do this today either.

This aspect of the Jew and Gentile in Acts and the entire new testament is often clouded and misunderstood and not seen. James wrote to the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad.

and can you tell me what you think of this verse and what it means?

"7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" (Galatians 2:7 KJV)

This verse is a key yo understanding Peter and his words to the Jews and Paul as well.